Idiots at gun shows!

[tpcdvc]

So, a friend of mine asked me to meet him at a gun show yesterday to help him pick out a used carry gun in the 1911 flavor. I had worked most of the day and was really tired but I'm always happy to help someone along the shooting path. We got to a table where a used Springfield champion was sitting. I picked it up and was checking it out for all the usual things (barrel link, making sure all the safeties worked properly ect..). The gun looked to be factory except for a hougue grip with the finger grooves. So then I dry fired it and he got up off his chair and immedietly walked toward me. I thought I felt a creep so I dry fired it again. I thought the guy was going to explode. He proceeded to tell me not to dry fire that gun again, because I'll break the fu%#in thing!! I tried to explain to him that dry firing a modern gun particularly a 1911 can't hurt the gun. He said bulls*#t that is why they make snap caps. Well I handed the gun to my friend who would be buying a gun and he racked the slide and pulled the trigger wanting to feel the trigger. That was all the guy could take. He took the gun from us!!!!! I said "that's fine I guess you don't want to sell the gun". And he sat back down and looked away. WTF!!!!!!!!!

My buddy ended up with a nice slightly used Kimber 4 inch.

[ChrisStock]

Around here anyways, gunshows are mall ninja and @$$hat magnets. The only decent deal I saw at a recent was on primers. They were the same price as anywhere I've ordered online minus the hazmat fees. I tend to go after something specific then get the hell out of there. Sorry to hear you and your friend had such a bad experience. I guess that's why I only go to one show a year.

[snertley]

+2

Your post reminded me of this. It should lighten you day a bit.

A FIELD GUIDE TO GUN SHOWS

By The Elitist

Gun shows are an old and honored American tradition. The basic idea-putting sellers, buyers, and stock in the same room and letting Free Market Forces go to work-is as old as commerce, but the American form of gun show has evolved its own manners, vocabulary, and etiquette.

Gun shows are run by and for dreamers. Every dealer who sets up a table seems to think that the people who attend are half-wits who will happily pay 25% more than manufacturer's suggested retail price for their goods; and all the attendees hold it as an article of faith that the exhibitors are desperate men who have come in the hopes of finally disposing of their stock at 30% less than wholesale cost.

In this environment it helps to have some idea what to expect; so for the benefit of those who are so unfortunate as never to have experienced this distinctively American form of mass entertainment, I offer this guide, the summation of what I've learned from 30 years of show-going. I've included a glossary of terms you'll need to know, and an introduction to some of the people you'll meet.

GLOSSARY

The following terms apply to items offered for sale:

MINT CONDITION: In original condition as manufactured, unfired, and preferably in the original box with all manufacturer's tags, labels, and paperwork.

NEAR-MINT CONDITION: Has had no more than 5,000 rounds fired through it and it still retains at least 60% of the original finish. Surface pitting is no more than 1/8" deep, and both grip panels are in place. If it is a .22, some of the rifling is still visible.

VERY GOOD: Non-functional when you buy it, but you can probably get it to work if you replace 100% of the parts.

FAIR: Rusted into a solid mass with a shape vaguely reminiscent of a firearm.

TIGHT: In revolvers, the cylinder swings out, but you need two hands to close it again. For autoloaders, you must bang the front of the slide on a table to push it back.

REALLY TIGHT: In revolvers you cannot open the cylinder without a lever. Once it's open the extractor rod gets stuck halfway through its travel. On autoloaders, you need a hammer to close the slide.

A LITTLE LOOSE: In revolvers, the cylinder falls out and the chambers are 1/4" out of line when locked up. There is no more than 1/2" of end play. For autoloaders, the barrel falls out when the slide is retracted. If the barrel stays in place, the slide falls off.

GOOD BORE: You can tell it was once rifled and even approximately how many grooves there were.

FAIR BORE: Probably would be similar to GOOD BORE, if you could see through it.

NEEDS A LITTLE WORK: May function sometimes if you have a gunsmith replace minor parts, such as the bolt, cylinder, or barrel.

ARSENAL RECONDITIONED: I cleaned it up with a wire wheel and some stuff I bought at K-Mart.

ANTIQUE: I found it in a barn, and I think it dates from before 1960. Note that ANTIQUE guns are usually found in FAIR condition.

RARE VARIANT: No more than 500,000 of this model were ever made, not counting the ones produced before serial numbers were required. Invariably, RARE VARIANTS command a premium price of 150% of BOOK VALUE.

BOOK VALUE: An ill-defined number that dealers consider insultingly low and buyers ridiculously high. Since no one pays any attention to it, it doesn't matter who is right.

IT BELONGED TO MY GRANDFATHER: I bought it at a flea market or yard sale two weeks ago.

CIVIL WAR RELIC: The vendor's great-grandfather knew a man whose friend once said he had been in the Civil War.

SHOOTS REAL GOOD: For rifles, this means at 100 yards it will put every shot into a 14" circle if there isn't any wind and you're using a machine rest. For handguns, three out of six rounds will impact a silhouette target at seven yards. In shotguns, it means that the full choke tube throws 60% patterns with holes no larger than 8" in them.

ON CONSIGNMENT: The vendor at the show does not own the gun. It belongs to a friend, customer, or business associate, and he has been instructed to sell it, for which he will be paid a commission. He has no authority to discuss price. The price marked is 50% above BOOK VALUE. All used guns offered for sale at gun shows, without exception, are ON CONSIGNMENT, and the dealer is required by his Code of Ethics to tell you this as soon as you ask the price. (A BATF study has proven that since 1934 there has never been a single authenticated case of a used gun being offered for sale at a gun show that was actually owned by the dealer showing it.)

I'LL LET IT GO FOR WHAT I HAVE IN IT: I'll settle for what I paid for it plus a 250% profit.

MAKE ME AN OFFER: How dumb are you?

TELL ME HOW MUCH IT'S WORTH TO YOU: I'll bet you're even dumber than you look.

PEOPLE YOU WILL MEET AT THE GUN SHOW

RAMBO: He's looking for an Ingram MAC-10, and wants to have it custom chambered in .44 Magnum as a back-up gun. For primary carry he wants a Desert Eagle, provided he can get it custom chambered in .50 BMG. He derides the .50 Action Express as a wimp round designed for ladies' pocket pistols. He has already bought three years' worth of freeze-dried MRE's from MARK, as well as seven knives. He is dressed in camouflage BDU's and a black T-shirt with the 101st Airborne Division insignia, though he has never been in the Army. He works as a bag boy at Kroger's.

BUBBA: He needs some money, and has reluctantly decided to sell his Daddy's .30-30, a Marlin 336 made in 1961. He indignantly refuses all cash offers below his asking price of $475. Unable to sell it, eventually he trades it plus another $175 for a new-in-box H&R Topper in .219 Zipper. He feels pretty good about the deal.

GORDON: He is walking the aisles with a Remington Model 700 ADL in .30-06 on his shoulder. He's put an Uncle Mike's cordura sling and a Tasco 3x9 variable scope on it. A small stick protrudes from the barrel, bearing the words, "LIKE NEW ONLY THREE BOXES SHELLS FIRED $800." This is his third trip to a show with this particular rifle, which he has never actually used, since he lives in a shotgun-only area for deer.

DAWN: She is here with her boyfriend, DARRYL. At the last show, DARRYL bought her a Taurus Model 66 in .357 Magnum. She fired it twice and is afraid of it, but at DARRYL'S insistence she keeps it in a box on the top shelf of her clothes closet in case someone breaks in. She is dressed in a pair of blue jeans that came out of a spray can, a "Soldier of Fortune" T-shirt two sizes too small, and 4" high heels. DARRYL is ignoring her, but nobody else is.

DARRYL: He has been engaged to DAWN for three years. He likes shotguns for defense, and he's frustrated that he can't get a Street Sweeper anymore. So he's bought a Mossberg 500 with the 18-1/2" barrel, a perforated handguard, and a pistol grip. He plans to use it for squirrel hunting when he isn't sleeping with it. He plans to marry DAWN as soon as he gets a job which pays him enough to take over the payments on her mobile home. His parole officer has no idea where he is at the moment.

ARNOLD: He is a car salesman in Charlottesville, Virginia. He has a passion for Civil War guns, especially cap-and-ball revolvers. He has a reproduction Remington 1858, and is looking for a real one he can afford. He owns two other guns: a S&W Model 60 and a Sauer & Sohn drilling with Luftwaffe markings that his grandfather brought home in 1945. He has no idea what caliber the rifle barrel on his drilling is, and he last fired the Model 60 five years ago.

DICK: He is a gun dealer who makes his overhead selling Jennings J-25's, Lorcin .380's, and H&R top-break revolvers. He buys the J-25's in lots of 1000 direct from the factory at $28.75 each, and sells them for $68.00 to gun show customers. He buys the H&R's for $10 at estate auctions and asks $85 for them, letting you talk him down to $78 when he is feeling generous. His records are meticulously kept: he insists on proper ID and a signature on the 4473, but he doesn't mind if the ID and the signature aren't yours. Other than his stock, he owns no guns and he has no interest in them.

ARLENE: She is DICK's wife. She hates guns and gun shows more than anything in the world. Her husband insists that she accompany him to keep an eye on the table when he's dickering or has to go to the men's room. She refuses to come unless she can bring her SONY portable TV, even though she gets lousy reception in the Civic Center and there isn't any cable. When DICK is away from the table, she has no authority to negotiate, and demands full asking price for everything. She doesn't know the difference between a rifle and a shotgun, and what's more, she doesn't care.

MARK: He doesn't have an FFL. He buys a table at the show to sell nylon holsters, magazines, T-shirts, bumper stickers, fake Nazi regalia, surplus web gear, MRE's and accessories. He makes more money than anyone else in the hall.

ALAN: He's not a dealer, but he had a bunch of odds and ends to dispose of, so he bought a table. On it he displays used loading dies in 7.65 Belgian and .25-20, both in boxes from the original Herter's company. He also has a half-box of .38-55 cartridges, a Western-style gun belt he hasn't been able to wear since 1978, a used cleaning kit, and a nickel-plated Iver Johnson Premier revolver in .32 S&W. He's asking $125 for the gun and $40 for each of the die sets. He paid $35 for the table and figures he needs to get at least that much to cover his expenses and the value of his time.

GERALD: He's a physician specializing in diseases of the rich. He collects Brownings, and specializes in High-Power pistols, Superposed shotguns, and Model 1900's. He has 98% of the known variations of each of these, and now plans to branch out into the 1906 and 1910 pocket pistols. He owns no handguns made after the Germans left Liege in 1944. He regards Japanese-made "Brownings" as a personal insult and is a little contemptuous of Inglis-made High-Powers. He does not hunt or shoot. He buys all his gun accessories from Orvis and Dunn's.

KEVIN: He is 13, and this is his first gun show. His eyes are bugged out with amazement, and he wonders what his J.C. Higgins single-shot 20-gauge is worth. His father gives him an advance on his allowance so he can buy a used Remington Nylon 66. He's hooked for life and will end up on the NRA's Board of Directors.

[mdstihl]

LOL Tell ya what, that pretty much nails it.

[zhunter]

Very funny

[Chills1994]

Sometimes the people at the gunshows ARE the entertainment.

LOL!

[AlamoShooter]

I showed a friend a Presentation grade revolver one time I removed it from the presentation box ... and he dry fired it

If I do happen to find my self at a gun show and I am not ducking and bobbing to keep the guns from point at me.

I ask before I dry fire a gun. any gun that is not my own. makes life simpler

[Shawn Knight]

At least no one put a hole in the ceiling.

[tpcdvc]

I showed a friend a Presentation grade revolver one time I removed it from the presentation box ... and he dry fired it

If I do happen to find my self at a gun show and I am not ducking and bobbing to keep the guns from point at me.

I ask before I dry fire a gun. any gun that is not my own. makes life simpler

Yep, I think I expect too much from folks. I just figured everyone knew that dry firing won't hurt a 1911. Maybe I'm the idiot!!!!!

[JoshF]

At least no one put a hole in the ceiling.

My father and I were at a show (actually about 30' away) when someone "dryfired" a loaded pistol a seller had on his table. The only thing hurt was a box of hearing protection (VERY LUCKY). Once we were sure no one was hurt and the seller got booted we promptly left for the bar as we both needed a beer after that ordeal!

Since then Gunshows are a run in and run out sort of affair..

Edited March 17, 2008 by KSmoker

[Hank Ellis]

I absolutely can't stand gun shows. Never mind the high prices the dealers charge. It's the clientele. Mall ninjas to the left, creepy dudes to the right, and bubbas all around. The last time I went I brought a SKS with a bent barrel that shot 6" right at 25yds with the sights adjusted as far as they will go. Priced it to move and it was gone within 3 minutes of hitting the door. I was out the door 2 minutes later.

Even though I can't stomach them I will fight for the right to have them.

[benny hill]

Went to a show near me about 4 yrs ago & was looking at a table full of 1911's. One springfield had a pair of millets just knocked in the dovetail, a add on beavertail, comp bushing & price was $1200.00. I asked why it was so high & he told that a master builder by the name of benny hill built it & it was the most accurate pistol he had ever fired. I said I don't know the builder but for that price he must be one hell of a smith & does great work. I left laughing so hard I had a problem seeing for the tears.

[tpcdvc]

Went to a show near me about 4 yrs ago & was looking at a table full of 1911's. One springfield had a pair of millets just knocked in the dovetail, a add on beavertail, comp bushing & price was $1200.00. I asked why it was so high & he told that a master builder by the name of benny hill built it & it was the most accurate pistol he had ever fired. I said I don't know the builder but for that price he must be one hell of a smith & does great work. I left laughing so hard I had a problem seeing for the tears.

That's Awesome!!!!!!

[davidwiz]

I haven't been to a gunshow since 1999. Too much beef jerky, mall ninjas and dealers who want 200% above market for whatever POS that they are trying to sell. When I went, there used to be more people selling used guns and you could usually get a pretty good deal, now about 75% of the stuff being sold isn't even firearm-related.

[zhunter]

Went to a show near me about 4 yrs ago & was looking at a table full of 1911's. One springfield had a pair of millets just knocked in the dovetail, a add on beavertail, comp bushing & price was $1200.00. I asked why it was so high & he told that a master builder by the name of benny hill built it & it was the most accurate pistol he had ever fired. I said I don't know the builder but for that price he must be one hell of a smith & does great work. I left laughing so hard I had a problem seeing for the tears.

OK, that is just freakin' hilarious

[waxman]

I actually went to a gunshow this last weekend, And Yes I did buy something that I thought was a good deal. As we were on our way out, I walked by a Guy who just had the look of someone who knew nothing about guns. Hard to explain the look, but he almost looked kinda scared. Well anyway, as I was waiting to get throught the crowd I overheard the converation between him and the dealer. The dealer said to him, "Yep these have always been the most reliable handgun you can buy, perfect for self defense". This got my curiousity, so I snuck a peak on the way by. The pistol he was referring to was a High point. Wow wish i would have know about these before I spent all of that money on my SV. The thing looked like the old disk shooting guns I had when I was a kid. I think they retail for like $150 .

Edited March 17, 2008 by waxman

[jam-man]

I had a similar experince happen to me once at the local gun shop. I was looking at a Para LDA and of course I removed the mag and checked the chamber when the local Gun Shop 4.75 hour Comando handed it to me. (Which he did not) I aimed in a safe direction and dry fired the weapon. It was when the LDA first came out and everyone was raving about them. I told him I was surprised at the lenght of pull. He just had this weird look on his face like I spit on him. He said don't dry fire our weapon again. I politely told him it was modern weapon and no way could harm it. Of course he had seen dozens of breach faces cracked by dry firing etc. etc. So after a semi-heated discussion I asked to speak to the manger. He also said they didn't allow dry firing. I informed him I would never buy from them again. I also asked to speak with their gun smith. What a knowledgable Gun Smith he was, he told me that is why Snap Caps were invented. I just gave up and never bought anything from there again. I just wonder sometimes how much stuff the so called Gun Smith has screwed up.

I don't understand the whole Gun Shop click thing. I travel alot and will often times stop into Gun Shops. About 75% of the time the local hang arounds and sorry employees act like you not only are bothering them, but also shouldn't step foot in their store.

Just today I called to check the status of a gun I had ordered. The owner of the gun shop is always super nice and his prices are the best I have found in my area. He told me it would be there Mon. or Tues. I live about a 45 minute drive away. So of course I am excited about getting a new weapon. It is my B-Day and it is a gift to myself. Well the Gun Shop Comando that answered the phone said it wasn't there and they would CALL ME WHEN IT ARRIVED. He was such a butt about it. He his also the same guy giving the advice to the young kid last time I was there about how the 45acp was blow some ones arm off and people when hit with a 9mm run 23 miles before they know they are shot etc etc.

Well any way I am through venting, life could be worse I could be a Tibbeting Monk in China right now.

[PINMAN44]

I'm just going to find people like that at gun shows... and set up a table next to them with my guns and just dry fire them millions of times.

If a gun breaks due to a few dry fires then I don't want that piece of crap

[SiG Lady]

What Benny Hill said!!!!! That's a scream!!!!

If I do go to gun shows (and I do occasionally) I usually have something or other in mind and arrive at the door just before they open. Then about 45 minutes into it I'm done. After that it's a weirdo circus and too crowded to do decent business anyway. Go early, get a decent parking place, avoid the weirdos, chat with your friends who are doing the same, say hi to some vendor acquaintances, then leave discreetly.

[bigbrowndog]

I was helping a friend sell his Marvel 22 conversion, that I know for a fact he had fired it maybe 200 rounds thru it, he had 4 mags for it. A gunshow dealer saw it and wanted to see it, he asked what he wanted for it and I answered for him 250.00, the dealer said I'll give you 125.00, I simply said give it back, and walked away, the dealer said Hey, wait OK let me see it again, OK, 200.00, I said give it to me, I don't want to sell it to you anymore, and walked away.........he found us later on, i assume after he looked it up in his blue book of gun values. and said OK 250.00, I told my friend, I'd give him 275.00 when we got back to his house, the dealer was not happy.

Trapr

[kevin c]

I used to be a regular at the local shows.

Now I go less and less often (once a year if that), and the visits are shorter and shorter.

Only thing that brings out the wallet is a reasonable price on primers.

[Shawn Knight]

When I go I never talk to any of the dealers except to ask to see something or permission to dry fire. I have never had a problem with people letting me dry fire or really crazy prices. People have to make a living.

That said....

There was this one guy...

I called him the magazine guy. Nothing but magazines on his table. He usually had some good deals but I guess I caught him on a bad day. I tried to get an older Smith model 39 mag and he wanted 50$ for it!!! I put it back on the table and he got really irate. Complaining that it was a good price and that I should not be so picky about such a "collectible". As I left he told me in a louder than normal voice that I would never find another one like it! Next table over I found the same mag for 10$ go figure.

[Jman]

Do you have the guy selling the smelly 25 year old Shooters Bibles?

And my favorites How to Get Even and Home made Silencers.

Why am I asking, course you do.

Jim M

[GentlemanJim]

I go to quite a few gun shows.

My buddy and I have done it for over 20 years.

We have always had about the best price possable on new guns ...and never have marked them up to rip people off.

We know all the land shark people and the ones that want to get in your pants, the rambos, wannabes ect.

But we also know lots of real good folks who love to shoot and to trade stuff around for fun.

Its a big bunch of people....you will find good and bad ones.

And I have seen some interesting things pop out from time to time

Jim

[Shawn Knight]

Do you have the guy selling the smelly 25 year old Shooters Bibles?

And my favorites How to Get Even and Home made Silencers.

Why am I asking, course you do.

Jim M

Oh yeah...

The funniest people in AK were the ones selling trinkets. Like Moose poop swizzle sticks and ear rings.