Amateurs vs. Professionals

[zhunter]

As to the $500 match fee? The sponsor would pay it of course. Or the shooter. I don't get why that is an issue.

I can't see how it's not an issue, Bill.

You would probably be talking about 10-12 matches a year for it to mean anything (Level III sized matches), right? That is five grand...more. I am sure that Springfield, Glock and Para could pay it for Dave, Robbie, and Todd. S&W...? Maybe...or maybe they'd lose a few shooters. AMU...? Max, TT, KC and Lee on the pistol side...their budget would take a $20k hit. Does CZ take a $5k per shooter hit? SV?

Could anybody else?

I know I'm not funding another $5k a year in match fees. Plus, how much more in practice and travel $$ to make a run at it? And, then...the pay off probably still couldn't be worth the expenses.

I like the idea of some $$$ flowing, but I can't see it working as self-funded. I think the pool of pro shooters gets smaller, not larger.

I could be wrong, somebody show Flex the money.

Flex

The theory is that in all or at least some of those matches you would win some money, and fund the $5000 you are talking about for the 10 matches in question.

[Flexmoney]

...then you probably aren't cut out to be a pro shooter.

Who is, I wonder? To me, that is kinda like saying I'm not cut out to be a bank robber.

Where are we gonna get the $500 a match, and who is going to play with us?

How do we get the 100+ players like Jay mentions in golf? How big does the base of shooters need to be to get enough...

[Flexmoney]

Flex

The theory is that in all or at least some of those matches you would win some money, and fund the $5000 you are talking about for the 10 matches in question.

Show me that math.

Somebody has to lose $5k for somebody else to win it, with what I have seen so far, right?

[BSeevers]

As to the $500 match fee? The sponsor would pay it of course. Or the shooter. I don't get why that is an issue.

I can't see how it's not an issue, Bill.

You would probably be talking about 10-12 matches a year for it to mean anything (Level III sized matches), right? That is five grand...more. I am sure that Springfield, Glock and Para could pay it for Dave, Robbie, and Todd. S&W...? Maybe...or maybe they'd lose a few shooters. AMU...? Max, TT, KC and Lee on the pistol side...their budget would take a $20k hit. Does CZ take a $5k per shooter hit? SV?

Could anybody else?

I know I'm not funding another $5k a year in match fees. Plus, how much more in practice and travel $$ to make a run at it? And, then...the pay off probably still couldn't be worth the expenses.

I like the idea of some $$$ flowing, but I can't see it working as self-funded. I think the pool of pro shooters gets smaller, not larger.

I could be wrong, somebody show Flex the money.

Flex

The theory is that in all or at least some of those matches you would win some money, and fund the $5000 you are talking about for the 10 matches in question.

Correct

Pro division to me, is what GM was supposed to be when we started it. I don't think they planned on so many people getting a GM card. It was so "regular" M's no longer competed against Todd/Rob/Jerry, in everything, including trophies.

Again there is a difference between an AMU shooter and me. Yes some of them are actually lowly M's like me. Don't mean to keep bringing them up but its just easy to make the point that way.

Also its a Professional division. You choose to play in it for whatever your reasons. An example is 1st Pro Area 5 pays 2K, 11th Pro pays $9 or something. Depends on how many sign up and other factors. Oh and sure its a fact that more people have to LOSE than win. At least until Winston or Miller decide to pump in some money.(here's the real method in my madness!!!)

FIPT now there was a great match.

Edited March 17, 2008 by BSeevers

[el pres]

Huh? Most of the big 3gun matches are $255 right now and they fill up in a flash.

They also have no purse to take home other than maybe a new AR worth about $1800.00 for

the top prize with lots of good stuff under that...

[zhunter]

Flex

The theory is that in all or at least some of those matches you would win some money, and fund the $5000 you are talking about for the 10 matches in question.

Show me that math.

Somebody has to lose $5k for somebody else to win it, with what I have seen so far, right?

Correct, Darwin's Theory holds here. But the lure of the cash keeps them coming.

[BSeevers]

Flex

The theory is that in all or at least some of those matches you would win some money, and fund the $5000 you are talking about for the 10 matches in question.

Show me that math.

Somebody has to lose $5k for somebody else to win it, with what I have seen so far, right?

Correct, Darwin's Theory holds here. But the lure of the cash keeps them coming. [

He gets it

Dont take that wrong.

Edited March 17, 2008 by BSeevers

[L9X25]

FIPT now there was a great match.

Bill,

I was shooting at that time, and know a lot about the FIPT, but do not feel "qualified" to critique it since I never shot it. Sounds as if Jay is trying to duplicate that match and lots of folks could benefit from hearing what the match was like from someone who participated.

[tightloop]

As to the $500 match fee? The sponsor would pay it of course. Or the shooter. I don't get why that is an issue.

I can't see how it's not an issue, Bill.

You would probably be talking about 10-12 matches a year for it to mean anything (Level III sized matches), right? That is five grand...more. I am sure that Springfield, Glock and Para could pay it for Dave, Robbie, and Todd. S&W...? Maybe...or maybe they'd lose a few shooters. AMU...? Max, TT, KC and Lee on the pistol side...their budget would take a $20k hit. Does CZ take a $5k per shooter hit? SV?

Could anybody else?

I know I'm not funding another $5k a year in match fees. Plus, how much more in practice and travel $$ to make a run at it? And, then...the pay off probably still couldn't be worth the expenses.

I like the idea of some $$$ flowing, but I can't see it working as self-funded. I think the pool of pro shooters gets smaller, not larger.

I could be wrong, somebody show Flex the money.

You telling us you never spent 5k or more a yr on shooting? I have, lots of times and that was back in the Olden Days...you would not wager 5k against 500k? I think I might if I was 30 again. Not talking about an every week thing like the PGA..maybe 12- 15 events...in the mean time you teach, paint houses, do whatever you need to do to make $$....try it a couple of years and if you can't break out ahead, just shoot for fun and take a real job again.

The main thread I see in these responses is that you guys need guaranteed money in your pocket to try this...do you play poker? Same thing there...wager some to get lots...depends on your skill....

[GentlemanJim]

For me ...when it was suggested that every entry into the match would pay $500.00....then the top guys get the $$

Just what incentive do I have to go do this??

My wife and I BOTH shoot!...would it be real bright for me to spend $1000.00 just to get to shoot a single match

When you start talking about a few people making money from the sport

I just choose not to be the one whos pocket it comes out of!

Jim

[TRNinTX]

I'm on the same page as Flex. It could work, but the money has to be made available upfront from outside sources to make it viable from the start. If a match pays $10-$20K to the winner, then more people will put in the effort to participate at a higher level and then pay their $250 entry, but you won't get the same number to fund the pool and practice, travel, etc.

The SC 80 Second Challenge is a good example. People said it could never be done, Sig and the Outdoor Channel got the money right and guess what? Some guys worked hard enough to break 80 seconds. I realize that not everyone is cut out to be a Pro at any sport. If you are 5'4", no matter how hard you work, you will never play in the NBA, but I bet there are several guys on this board who if they had the chance to win big money every time they went to a match, they would make the sacrifice to get better.

For everyone that has been complaining about USPSA purchasing Steel Challenge, steel shooting has the capability of bringing outside money into the shooting sports. It's easy to watch and easy to keep up with whose ahead at all times. A guy ripping off shots at paper targets you can't see and disappearing behind walls doesn't bring much to the viewers, much less trying to explain hit factor scoring. There were several spectators at this weekends SC Nationals. They may not have understood the order things were shot, but it was pretty easy to hear the steel ring and see a mark appear. They figured out real fast that if you hit all of plates in five shots that was good, if you fired a bunch of extra rounds that was bad.

If the $500 entry was the only cost it would be pretty easy to justify, but as the "major" sponsor for a pretty good shooter for the last few years, the entry fee is only a drop in the bucket.

[tightloop]

...then you probably aren't cut out to be a pro shooter.

Who is, I wonder? To me, that is kinda like saying I'm not cut out to be a bank robber.

Where are we gonna get the $500 a match, and who is going to play with us?

How do we get the 100+ players like Jay mentions in golf? How big does the base of shooters need to be to get enough...

Sounds like the glass is half empty for you Flex.

Give you an example: the Pigeon match I mentioned occurred in Pearsall,TX last August...The guy who owns the land had the ring set up on one day, found the pigeons in a week and the shooters had to be limited to 30 because of notoriaty...just one guy did not show. Pigeons cost $4 each, there was a 500 entry fee... that is 15K to play with for purses...he won 3k in official money and the rest in side bets on 5 and 10 bird miss and out contests...his bird bill was about 800 dollars but who cares...

Yep, you got the math right, someone has to loose for someone else to win...it is all about your faith and ability in your skills...just like Costner says, If you build it they will come...

[lynn jones]

my only problem with pro-am stuff, is that i don't think there are enough matches per year to support this kind of thinking.

z, you know there are several golf matche per week, not all are broadcast on NBC on saturday and sunday. there is hardly one major match a week in pistol shooting.

i just see this going any where here but on the next page of this thread.

lynn

[Chuck Anderson]

As to the $500 match fee? The sponsor would pay it of course. Or the shooter. I don't get why that is an issue.

I can't see how it's not an issue, Bill.

You would probably be talking about 10-12 matches a year for it to mean anything (Level III sized matches), right? That is five grand...more. I am sure that Springfield, Glock and Para could pay it for Dave, Robbie, and Todd. S&W...? Maybe...or maybe they'd lose a few shooters. AMU...? Max, TT, KC and Lee on the pistol side...their budget would take a $20k hit. Does CZ take a $5k per shooter hit? SV?

Could anybody else?

I know I'm not funding another $5k a year in match fees. Plus, how much more in practice and travel $$ to make a run at it? And, then...the pay off probably still couldn't be worth the expenses.

I like the idea of some $$$ flowing, but I can't see it working as self-funded. I think the pool of pro shooters gets smaller, not larger.

I could be wrong, somebody show Flex the money.

You telling us you never spent 5k or more a yr on shooting? I have, lots of times and that was back in the Olden Days...you would not wager 5k against 500k? I think I might if I was 30 again. Not talking about an every week thing like the PGA..maybe 12- 15 events...in the mean time you teach, paint houses, do whatever you need to do to make $$....try it a couple of years and if you can't break out ahead, just shoot for fun and take a real job again.

The main thread I see in these responses is that you guys need guaranteed money in your pocket to try this...do you play poker? Same thing there...wager some to get lots...depends on your skill....

Yes, I've certainly spent more than $5000.00 in a year shooting matches. What I don't want to have to do is spend another $5000.00 on top of what I already spent. I find it really interesting that all the people (except Jake) that are arguing for this, wouldn't be entering as pro anyway. There are only a few people that are going to win a match. Maybe three or four guys can win Production, Open, Limited, or L10. That number shrinks dramatically in Revolver. Second through maybe fourth will get enough, but I doubt match fee will be covered below that, unless you make it mandatory. In that case I'm done. I'm apparently good enough to be considered a pro by you, but I'm not anywhere near good enough to beat Dave.

[tightloop]

As to the $500 match fee? The sponsor would pay it of course. Or the shooter. I don't get why that is an issue.

I can't see how it's not an issue, Bill.

You would probably be talking about 10-12 matches a year for it to mean anything (Level III sized matches), right? That is five grand...more. I am sure that Springfield, Glock and Para could pay it for Dave, Robbie, and Todd. S&W...? Maybe...or maybe they'd lose a few shooters. AMU...? Max, TT, KC and Lee on the pistol side...their budget would take a $20k hit. Does CZ take a $5k per shooter hit? SV?

Could anybody else?

I know I'm not funding another $5k a year in match fees. Plus, how much more in practice and travel $$ to make a run at it? And, then...the pay off probably still couldn't be worth the expenses.

I like the idea of some $$$ flowing, but I can't see it working as self-funded. I think the pool of pro shooters gets smaller, not larger.

I could be wrong, somebody show Flex the money.

You telling us you never spent 5k or more a yr on shooting? I have, lots of times and that was back in the Olden Days...you would not wager 5k against 500k? I think I might if I was 30 again. Not talking about an every week thing like the PGA..maybe 12- 15 events...in the mean time you teach, paint houses, do whatever you need to do to make $$....try it a couple of years and if you can't break out ahead, just shoot for fun and take a real job again.

The main thread I see in these responses is that you guys need guaranteed money in your pocket to try this...do you play poker? Same thing there...wager some to get lots...depends on your skill....

Yes, I've certainly spent more than $5000.00 in a year shooting matches. What I don't want to have to do is spend another $5000.00 on top of what I already spent. I find it really interesting that all the people (except Jake) that are arguing for this, wouldn't be entering as pro anyway. There are only a few people that are going to win a match. Maybe three or four guys can win Production, Open, Limited, or L10. That number shrinks dramatically in Revolver. Second through maybe fourth will get enough, but I doubt match fee will be covered below that, unless you make it mandatory. In that case I'm done. I'm apparently good enough to be considered a pro by you, but I'm not anywhere near good enough to beat Dave.

One or two guys won't win all the matches...and if they pay out like the PGA 2nd thru 7th might not be too bad either.., and then you just hope you can slip in there when the Hot Rocks have an off day...Ask Fred Funk if he won as many times as Nicklaus, and he'll laugh cause he has about 5 or so wins on the PGA, but he has made millions of dollars and more official money than Jack did..and a hell of a great living for not working too hard...

[Flexmoney]

Well...I can't argue with Costner...he being a movie star and all.

[Flexmoney]

I'm on the same page as Flex. It could work, but the money has to be made available upfront from outside sources to make it viable from the start. If a match pays $10-$20K to the winner, then more people will put in the effort to participate at a higher level and then pay their $250 entry, but you won't get the same number to fund the pool and practice, travel, etc.

The SC 80 Second Challenge is a good example. People said it could never be done, Sig and the Outdoor Channel got the money right and guess what? Some guys worked hard enough to break 80 seconds. I realize that not everyone is cut out to be a Pro at any sport. If you are 5'4", no matter how hard you work, you will never play in the NBA, but I bet there are several guys on this board who if they had the chance to win big money every time they went to a match, they would make the sacrifice to get better.

For everyone that has been complaining about USPSA purchasing Steel Challenge, steel shooting has the capability of bringing outside money into the shooting sports. It's easy to watch and easy to keep up with whose ahead at all times. A guy ripping off shots at paper targets you can't see and disappearing behind walls doesn't bring much to the viewers, much less trying to explain hit factor scoring. There were several spectators at this weekends SC Nationals. They may not have understood the order things were shot, but it was pretty easy to hear the steel ring and see a mark appear. They figured out real fast that if you hit all of plates in five shots that was good, if you fired a bunch of extra rounds that was bad.

If the $500 entry was the only cost it would be pretty easy to justify, but as the "major" sponsor for a pretty good shooter for the last few years, the entry fee is only a drop in the bucket.

There is a whole lot of knowledge to be pulled out of Tim's post.

[Coolduckboy]

TL...I'd put my $500 up against you or Z in a big match. (and that is $500 that needs to go into my truck right now) Let me know. I might have to oil up the single-stack.

(If you guys aren't willing to do that with your own money, then it might be less rude of you to suggest that somebody else is gutless for not doing it with their money.)

Bring It, I am not afraid.

[Matt Cheely]

As long as you can opt-out of Pro class, I'm all for it.

[Turbo23]

I'm on the same page as Flex. It could work, but the money has to be made available upfront from outside sources to make it viable from the start. If a match pays $10-$20K to the winner, then more people will put in the effort to participate at a higher level and then pay their $250 entry, but you won't get the same number to fund the pool and practice, travel, etc.

The SC 80 Second Challenge is a good example. People said it could never be done, Sig and the Outdoor Channel got the money right and guess what? Some guys worked hard enough to break 80 seconds. I realize that not everyone is cut out to be a Pro at any sport. If you are 5'4", no matter how hard you work, you will never play in the NBA, but I bet there are several guys on this board who if they had the chance to win big money every time they went to a match, they would make the sacrifice to get better.

For everyone that has been complaining about USPSA purchasing Steel Challenge, steel shooting has the capability of bringing outside money into the shooting sports. It's easy to watch and easy to keep up with whose ahead at all times. A guy ripping off shots at paper targets you can't see and disappearing behind walls doesn't bring much to the viewers, much less trying to explain hit factor scoring. There were several spectators at this weekends SC Nationals. They may not have understood the order things were shot, but it was pretty easy to hear the steel ring and see a mark appear. They figured out real fast that if you hit all of plates in five shots that was good, if you fired a bunch of extra rounds that was bad.

If the $500 entry was the only cost it would be pretty easy to justify, but as the "major" sponsor for a pretty good shooter for the last few years, the entry fee is only a drop in the bucket.

I bet ol Spuds would disagree with you....

Had to make some kind of joke here.

Now that the tempo has changed some I do belive that this could work. Everything would take some time. But some day it just might be a reality?

[zhunter]

As long as you can opt-out of Pro class, I'm all for it.

No problemo!!!

Like I said early on, I put an idea out there. It can be tweaked, but the premise is there and it would work.

[Loves2Shoot]

As long as you can opt-out of Pro class, I'm all for it.

Why? Didn't you beat TJ? That is UNFAIR!

Beating a Pro should make you a Pro, and besides you make money cutting up perfectly good guns. Why sandbag and not go for a bigger prize, that is UNFAIR? The average shooter shouldn't have to spend money on ammo, and make the time sacrifices so they finish better that is UNFAIR. You should move into another class, because you are just after the prizes and the lesser skilled shooters are paying the way so you can win, that is UNFAIR. You are the problem with IPSC, you just have too much skill, time, and money, that is UNFAIR.

You are too good and people shouldn't come to matches that you are at, because you will just steal the good prizes if they award them by skill. It is a waste of their money, because they are just subsidizing the awesome prizes you get. They should get the same prize as you, even if you kick their butts. Who cares if you've spent 10 times as much to perform 10-20% better than they do. IT JUST ISN'T FAIR!!!

I can do math, that is why I wouldn't want to try to be a pro, spend $100 to win $10, not good odds. Like Lawman said, poll the better shooters and see if they would chase the Area Match wins for even $2k. I'm not that good of a shooter, but it wouldn't be worth the net $ gain for the work and time it would take from a financial standpoint. There are other reasons to do it, but not the money for me.

I shoot for the love of it, and I think that is what keeps this sport going, the love of it.

Edited March 17, 2008 by Loves2Shoot

[Jim Norman]

I have stayed silent on this so far. Interesting how many people wrote in such a short time. Really hit a nerve here!

I think that IF USPSA were to pursue this, the single most important thing will be to very carefully define the terms PROFESSIONAL nad AMATEUR with respedct to USPSA shooting.

A simple example of a question that needs or will need to be answered is: STI has a contingency award program. Will winning an award from STI make you a sponsored shooter? Or a "Professional" Will winning local matches that pay MONEY albeit less in most cases than the cost of gas and ammo to shoot the match make you a professional? Will USPSA clubs be required to stop all payouts? and if we do, what effect would that have on the multitudes of shooters that are shooting for top honors in C or D class? Will we be required to only award trinkets and plaques? If so, why not do away with them and lower fees by $5 a shooter? and on the other hand, if we award a plaque but offer a cash option for the value fo the plaque, would accepting the cash make you a PRO?

If the above has already be asked and answered, my apologies, I was not able to read every single post.

Jim

[Matt Cheely]

As long as you can opt-out of Pro class, I'm all for it.

Why? Didn't you beat TJ? That is UNFAIR!

Beating a Pro should make you a Pro, and besides you make money cutting up perfectly good guns. Why sandbag and not go for a bigger prize, that is UNFAIR? The average shooter shouldn't have to spend money on ammo, and make the time sacrifices so they finish better that is UNFAIR. You should move into another class, because you are just after the prizes and the lesser skilled shooters are paying the way so you can win, that is UNFAIR. You are the problem with IPSC, you just have too much skill, time, and money, that is UNFAIR.

You are too good and people shouldn't come to matches that you are at, because you will just steal the good prizes if they award them by skill. It is a waste of their money, because they are just subsidizing the awesome prizes you get. They should get the same prize as you, even if you kick their butts. Who cares if you've spent 10 times as much to perform 10-20% better than they do. IT JUST ISN'T FAIR!!!

Nice.

Edited March 17, 2008 by Matt Cheely

[ipscbob]

I'd like to see matches just with the Option on the match entry: prize table or not... pay more if you want prizes at any level.. I just want to shoot!

Now this makes sense! Yup. Fact is most of us like the way the organisation is being run right now and just want to come out and shoot on the weekends and care nothing about cash payouts or prizes. Administering this kind of caste system within USPSA would cost money. I do not want my membership dollars spent on this.