2008 SMM3G - March 27 - 30

[Benelli Chick]

Just wanted to say "Way Fun!"

I enjoyed having lots of multi-gun stages! In fact, I enjoyed them all!

JJ was really impressed by the stage design and the way it didn't put the lefties at a disadvantage (like some of the other matches)!

It was very smooth this year. The idea of going from the really long one, stage 7, and then jumping to the short shotgun stages that people could shoot quickly to avoid backups was dandy!

As far as abandonment, think barrels (but that's just me). Thanks for the high chair for my little Sabre rifle on stage 3!

My only complaint is I didn't use the port-a-potty with all the cash in it!

It was fun seeing you all, and I appreciated the nice weather you all scheduled!

See ya' next year!

Denise and JJ

Oh yeah! Squad 5 was awesome! I really had a lot of fun and was more relaxed than I've been in years shooting!

Thanks for the help and the hard work and putting up with me! It was great getting to know all of you better! Thanks, too, to the squad goddess!

Edited April 1, 2008 by Benelli Chick

[el pres]

Congratulations Kurt M top spot in TI well done amigo !

N

+1 on that !!

I finally got to meet Kurtm and introduce myself as DC . Most importantly I was able to see Kurt

shoot, what an animal !!!

The match was awsome, great stages and you cant beat the organization of the staff. Always so well thought out !!

Also enjoyed getting out of the 30-40F temps and getting a sun burn (nightly drinking at the pool!!). I was happy with

my finish even though I tanked once or twice . Cant wait for next year !!!

[Tom Freeman]

I thought the match was well set up and well run.

I had a great squad and that alone made the match.

For the love of god, with a $200+ match fee, why cant they paint the damn rifle steel or put some tarps to kick up the contrast a bit? I was shooting a scope and had a hard enough time.

[ERIC]

As usual, it was a great match and went smoothly which is expected if there isn't any snow. I agree with Tom. They need to so something about those long range rifle targets. Painting between squads would have been nice if time allowed. When I shot stage 5, there was one flasher that blended in very well with the saddows behind it. I couldn't see it with my scope so I just shot in the general vicinity and luckily got it.

It was great they brought out the door you shot with your shotgun but I do miss the roller coaster.

It was great shooting with Nils on his first 3 gun match. That kid tore it up. Not bad for shooting a borrowed rifle and learning he's going to shoot the match only 10 days before the match and having no practice. With all that, he got 2nd in TI.

[Religious Shooter]

I think it's a safety issue. Somebody painting a target at stage 6 could be mistakenly shot at be someone at stage 7. You could see the targets for stage 6 from stage 5 and so on.

And if you paint them at the start of the day... you just gave an advantage to the first or second squad of the day.

[ArturoJ]

For me, with iron sights 75% of the flashers were guess where it is shots, and my eyesight is not bad.

I talked with Mike Gibson about the target visibility problem. Mike said that he uses some of that "plastic cardboard" stuff about two feet behind the target. He say's that holds up fine for at least a day of shooting with no need to reset/paint. The target backer only needs to be about two feet by two feet to get the job done, thus not blocking the dust puffs for those who need it to walk the round in (not that there was any dust behind the flashers on stages 5 and 7 anyway). I could see the LaRue's at 275/315 fine.

If you don't know your zero's out to 300, at the SMM3G you will wish you did.

[Tom Freeman]

I think it's a safety issue. Somebody painting a target at stage 6 could be mistakenly shot at be someone at stage 7. You could see the targets for stage 6 from stage 5 and so on.

And if you paint them at the start of the day... you just gave an advantage to the first or second squad of the day.

Thats why you shut down all 3 stages and paint them all at once between squads or put backers up. Not rocket science here...

[Chuck Anderson]

Getting three squads that finish at the same time or shutting squads down in the middle is not easy. This is the first time in the last couple years that they have not had to throw out one of the long range stages because of being way over time. (It's usually whatever one I finish the best on). I thought the Larue's worked well this year. I did get burned badly by the RO on Stage 6 not calling a hit. Part my fault part the way they were running it. I shot one target out of order and he wasn't watching it. Took a good several seconds to get another hit on it. You really need to have more than one RO watching if you're using flash targets.

[el pres]

I had no problems seeing the targets ?? They were marked with big, huge, colored, barrels !!!

C,mon at some matches they dont even do that, if everyone sees the same quality target then thats just part of

the challenge...

[kellyn]

I thought the stages were quite good this year, and the prize table excellent as always. Thanks to the staff and the sponsors.

Some random observations:

1) Watch out Nils is coming! But he picked up a Trij TR21 off the prize table and I told him to start shooting Tac Scope!!

2) Denise is ABSOLUTELY right about having barrels or some other way to abandon weapons. Leaning long guns up against walls, flimsy ones at that is just not a good way to do it. In fact on stage 2, the shooter had to break the 180 to abandon the shotgun. PLEASE in the future, use barrels or flat tables with walls so the weapon is secure once abandoned.

3) I've said this before, the AMU has set the bar on long range rifle targets at the last Ft. Benning 3 gun. They placed yellow hard plastic walls up behind the targets so they were amply visible regardless of paint. ALL 3 GUN Matches should use this system. The long range rifle targets at this match were unacceptable, particularly for iron sight shooters. Many of us had to shoot hopers until we gave up or heard a clang.

4) When a shooter calls for a target to be pulled, it should be pulled. Nuff said.

5) Heavy Metal Auto and Heavy Metal Pump only shot head to head in 2 of 11 stages!!! Please let's get rid of Heavy Metal Auto. I "beat" Pat and Tate and Jimmy etc. in the match and they all trounced me on the only 2 stages that we actually shot against each other - that's not right. But I'm keeping my M1A Can we just use the same Heavy Metal rules as Ft. Benning?????????????

6) I may be alone in this but more pistol please. But I really did like the pistol portion of this match, especially on Stages 4, 7 and 9. They were fun with a single stack.

Thanks again to the staff and sponsors!

[J.Bagakis]

Great Match as always!

The RO's and staff were great!

Prize table was great except for the Tac-Iron table. I used to always want them to split up Tac-scope and Iron But, that did not seem to work out.

In the match booklet it showed POF as the Tac-Iron Davision sponsor but, all the POF stuff was on the Open and Tac-scope tables?

May be next year they will go back the way it has been done in the past.

John

[StealthyBlagga]

Great Match as always!

The RO's and staff were great!

Prize table was great except for the Tac-Iron table. I used to always want them to split up Tac-scope and Iron But, that did not seem to work out.

In the match booklet it showed POF as the Tac-Iron Davision sponsor but, all the POF stuff was on the Open and Tac-scope tables?

May be next year they will go back the way it has been done in the past.

John

In fairness, the SMM3G TacIron prize table was proportionate with other tables, but still I'm inclined to agree with John. I was never one of the "seperate prize table" guys. To me, the fairest method seems to be to score by divisions (Open, TacScope, TacIron, HM) to generate match points, then walk a single prize table in order of match points. So long as each division has a couple of top-level shooters, this should be the most equitable. Seeing that separate prize tables may become the norm, I am now contemplating a switch to TacScope - a pity, as I kinda enjoy squinting through that little hole at invisible targets .

Edited April 2, 2008 by StealthyBlagga

[kurtm]

I am not so sure "proportionate" would be the word I would use. For open the winner had a $2200.00 rifle, with 44 shooters, Heavy Metal had a $1650.00 rifle for 31 shooters, (with about half of those shooting a semi auto shotgun and half pumps making it two seperate divisions) Tac-Iron had a $700.00 dollar rifle for 21 shooters. Also at the start of the match I was assured that tac-iron and scope would be mixed together at the end, If I had known that they were going to seprate the two I would have seriously considered signing up as Tac-Scope with my iron rifle. I would have finished 3 over all in tac scope with my iron rifle and would have won a $1300.00 rifle.

Now I don't just shoot for the loot and the match was GREAT! I loved the stages, but hated the fact that steel wasn't visible, if you think you guys had a hard time with scopes you should have tried it with iron sights! Something needs to be done to address this problem! A couple of years ago it was done right with old banners behind the steel so it was a nice contrast, but this seems to have faded away.

Where have all the iron sight shooters gone?? I noticed that many have jumped into Heavy Metal, maybe because the prise table is better, but if you add all the iron sight shooters from tac-iron and Heavy it is 52 shooters so about the same as always we have just migrated a bit. It was nice to see that Nils jumped into 3-gun and was shooting IRON! Good job!

My hat is off to SMM3G, you guys can chalk up another in the WIN colom!!

[StealthyBlagga]

Perhaps "proportionate" was not the best choice in words. The TI prize table had guns/frames/optics down to 6th place, about 1/3 of the total prize table (of course, I came 7th ). I did not look that closely at the other tables, but this does not seem too disproportionate. The challenge for any prize coordinator is to accurately reflect the performance of the shooter with the prize they pick off the table. The smaller the number of competitors in any given division, the harder it is for this to be predictable and fair. At SMM3G08, the Tac Iron shooters shot on average about 10% higher match points than the Tac Scope guys (see chart below), and so a few of us - including Kurt - would probably have done better on a unified prize table. Like Kurt, in future I will be considering entering Tac Scope where the plunder is richer .

[Chuck Anderson]

Is that 10% higher match points based on heads up competition or TS vs TI scores. Neither is a truly fair comparison. This was actually a very Limited rifle friendly match. Two of the 11 stages had long range rifle. And even that was only 4 shots. You could actually just blow them off and still do pretty well on the stage. There were a couple of mid range shots that didn't seem that hard with irons. And all the rest of the rifle shots were way close. Besides this wasn't a three gun match anyway. It was a shotgun match with some rifle and a little bit of pistol thrown in.

Sorry Kurt, if you're going into a division with only 21 people the prizes are going to be small. You're more than welcome to throw a scope on and come play with the big boys though.

[ERIC]

The TS and TI tables did not seem proportionate to me. I thought I counted 13 rifles on the TS table and there were 149 competitors which means the top 8.7% got a rifle. It looked like there was a $1500 rifle and the the lowest probably around $700. The TI table only had 1 rifle and 21 competitors which means the top 4.8% got a rifle and as Kurt mentioned, it was a $700 rifle. Please excuse all the math, I'm an engineer and bored at work.

I know balancing out the prize table is not an easy task and I'm glad I don't have to do it, but I can help with the math next year if they need it.

Edited April 2, 2008 by ERIC

[StealthyBlagga]

...I know balancing out the prize table is not an easy task and I'm glad I don't have to do it, but I can help with the math next year if they need it.

The math will be easier next year... we'll all be in Tac Scope .

[Chuck Anderson]

The TS and TI tables did not seem proportionate to me. I thought I counted 13 rifles on the TS table and there were 149 competitors which means the top 8.7% got a rifle. It looked like there was a $1500 rifle and the the lowest probably around $700. The TI table only had 1 rifle and 21 competitors which means the top 4.8% got a rifle and as Kurt mentioned, it was a $700 rifle. Please excuse all the math, I'm an engineer and bored at work.

I know balancing out the prize table is not an easy task and I'm glad I don't have to do it, but I can help with the math next year if they need it.

I think there was only about 10 rifles actually. If there was 13, there would have been one left for me and there wasn't. Trying to use the numbers of rifles on the table really doesn't work. The table coordinator is trying to balance the total value of the table as well as the top couple prizes. I've done this more than once my self and I've got to say, if one division has 150 competitors and the other division has 1/7 that number, there's gonna be more prizes on the 150 table.

[kurtm]

Well Lawman I wasn't going into a "division" that only had 21 competitors. I asked when I signed up if tac iron and scope would be put together at the end, like always, the answer was YES. I check when I signed in if tac scope and iron would be put together at the end, and I was assured that they were GOING TO BE PUT TOGETHER!!! I checked Saturday and was ASSURED THAT THEY WOULD BE PUT TOGETHER......Sunday was quite a surprise for the Tac Iron folks!!and no one I talked to in tac iron was very happy about the out come. IF it had been made clear FROM the start you would have a valid point, but it wasn't. Tac Iron was misled as to how the scores were going to be handled. If you don't believe me just read your match booklet and it also will tell you that the two were to be melded at the end!

I am very surprised that your eye sight has improved so much! I am very happy for you. Before, you told us that you couldn't see iron sights at all, now I find that all the targets were real easy for you to see and that shooting iron would have been a real cake walk according to you... imagine, since skipping a rifle target only cost 10 seconds a target and on average there were 3 long rifle targets (250-300) per rifle stage that would only add 30 seconds to your run...yep that would win any rifle stage out there! Are you saying that up close iron has no equal, and that is why the match was special made for iron shooters?

As for "throwing on a scope and playing with the big boys" You belittle Nils, Bruce, Craig and the host of other tac iron shooters, but not me. I am the only competitior to have won SMM3G with both an optic sighted rifle and an Iron sighted rifle in tac division, Don't make me put on an optic and whump up on you optic guys

[Chuck Anderson]

I so enjoy needling you. Actually there were only 4 targets at the match that I would consider long range, 300+. Skip them and add 20 seconds per stage. Winning stage time was what 34 ish on one stage and I think in the 60's on the other? I watched several folks who did quite well take 10-15 seconds shooting the long range targets. Throw two quick rounds out, 1 second and your only dropping 10 ish seconds per stage. That's entirely doable. And that's the worst case. As far as Iron's being better up close. Okay, I'll buy that. Let's say that Irons are better inside 25 yds. (I know for some folks it will be further but 25 will work for this) With the exception of 16 shots at the match, everything was about 25 yds or closer. Of those 16, 4 of them were possible to blow off. That leaves 11 shots between 100 and 200 yds. I think there was one at 246 but I heard different ranges on that target. 16 shots at more than 25 yds, and...well a lot more than that inside of 25 yds.

As far as the prize table it sucks that they gave you incorrect information. If you were planning to shoot irons the way they have in the past, you were still entering a divison with only 21 people in it. The scores were just added to the TS Division. You still only compete head to head on the stages that don't have rifle. Everything else is TI against TI. And yes, I know the TI times were awesome at this match. I'm pretty sure you guys won a stage or two outright.

As far as my vision, it actually did get better. I got glasses at the end of February and I can see a lot better with them. I haven't put them to the test with an Iron sight rifle (other than sighting in an 11.5 inch M-16 but I don't think that was the best gun to judge with).

As far as Bruce, Craig and Nils, I'm sure everyone of them could, and did beat me. But you're talking to a guy who shoots Production. I'm used to shooting in a smaller Division. I know dang well that if there are less people there more ability to flub a stage and still finish well. Look at Kelly's match. Kelly is a great shooter, but he had some nasty gun problems and still won the match. I guarantee you that if he had been in TS or even competing heads up with the rest of HM that would not have been the case.

[kurtm]

Lawman, I just can't believe you! Now you are dissing Kelly, and he is my hero! Who is next?? Erik Lund??? Since your glasses work, come on over to Tac-iron and play with the real men! Loose that sissy Glock and get a 6" like real men shoot!! Yeah, I know, I know!! But hey I have to make up for it some where! KurtM

[Chuck Anderson]

Dude, I've been shooting for Team CZ since last year rocking my SP-01. And you know I would never diss Kelly. His goofy rifle maybe. Kelly shot awesome. Finishing first even with the gun puking on him as often as it did is an awesome accomplishment. But it proves my point as well. Would you have finished first with a gun that malfunctioned 5-10 times? And I would never pick on Erik Lund. I'm afraid he would just stare at me with those malevolent eyes and kill me where I stand.

[Bear1142]

Hey!! How'd I get drug into this?

I thought the match was great and the stage designs were awesome (although I do agree with Kelly and Denise regarding the barrels and painted steel.) I thought it was a top 5 best match over the last 5 years.

The prize table was outstanding and I'm grateful to have an opportunity to walk it.

I really have no desire to kill anybody......well okay, I do have a list, BUT it's a short one!

Erik

[kellyn]

Did I mention that I not only won Heavy Metal but I also beat Erik in arm wrestling? It will be on a special edition of Shooting Gallery.

As for my rifle, it is long on the tooth and was due for a rebuild but I thought it had one more match in it. And it only malfunctioned six times, not 10.

Kurt, I cannot be your hero since you are mine.

[Chuck Anderson]

I said 5-10 times, I figured it was somewhere in there. I was shocked to see it happen at all because I know how good the rifle has been for you. It's just frustrating to see it happen to someone who is shooting so dang well. I'm not surprised that you beat Lund in arm wrestling. He has those little girly arms. Oops, I guess I did pick on Erik. I'm gonna go hide now.