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Will Abrahams

newbie questions

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i am totally new to long range rifle shooting and rifles in general. i do not want to do any competing with rifles as USPSA matches keep me plenty busy, so its just for fun. oh yeah and shooting 600 yards max.

I did alot of reading here and came to the consensus that a rem 700 in .308 would be a great starter rifle. i put a Nikon 6.5-18x40 with leupold rings and bases on it. i have a 1050 for reloading my 38 supercomp on and i dont not plan to reload 308, so i will be using factory ammo.

my questions...

1. there has been some topics about what weight of bullet to use...155 vs. 168 vs. 175... i thought you could only use one weight of bullet for a particular barrel twist rate?

2. when talking with a local rifle shooter, he had mentioned that it is going to be very difficult to achieve good results with a stock rifle and using factory ammo (remington premier match SMK 168 gr. BTHP)? any truth in this?

3. when sighting in my rifle i noticed that i have the windage knob almost all the way cranked down (left). is it possible that i have the scope on crooked??? i dont see anyway to adjust the bases???

4. my barrel has a twist rate of 1:12, so according to the greenhill equation a 168 gr bullet should be fine, right? or is there more to it than that???

thanks,

Will

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Are the bases the regular Luepold that the front ring turns in the base, and the rear has 2 screws holding the ring? Or, are they Weaver style? You can get Burris Signature rings that have eccentric plastic rings that go into the steel rings. They'll give you more adjustment.

If I were to choose one load in that rifle it would be with Sierra 175 Match Kings. It would be good for almost any distance out to 1000 yards.

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ok, i figured out the scope bases. i didnt realize the rear base had windage adjustment, which happened to be way off...

so how about any thoughts on the other questions...

i went to cabelas today ( i know, probably not a good place to be asking this) and asked about 308 bullet weights and twist rates. on salesman said he uses 180 gr in his garand with a 1:16 twist, and gets good groups at 300 yards. i didnt think 1:16 would be fast enough to stabalize a 180 gr bullet. Another fellow told me i should be using 147 gr in a 1:12 twist barrel???

for bench rest shooting, is there one specific bullet weight to use with a certain twist rate? Or is it just trial and error with different weights to see what groups well with your particular rifle?

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I've got an Armilite .308 a4 and used it in several 3-gun matches. I shot several thousand south african 150 grain bullets. They did great, and they were a cheap bullet. I think any .308 round will get er done. I think the stats are so close that its all irrelivent. UNLESS you shooting at targets near 1000 yards.

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i went to cabelas today ( i know, probably not a good place to be asking this) and asked about 308 bullet weights and twist rates. on salesman said he uses 180 gr in his garand with a 1:16 twist, and gets good groups at 300 yards. i didnt think 1:16 would be fast enough to stabalize a 180 gr bullet. Another fellow told me i should be using 147 gr in a 1:12 twist barrel???

for bench rest shooting, is there one specific bullet weight to use with a certain twist rate? Or is it just trial and error with different weights to see what groups well with your particular rifle?

The guy at Cabela's should not be believed. A 16" twist barrel won't stabilize a 180 grain bullet, unless maybe it was a wadcutter. I've never heard of any twist for a Garand other than 10, 11, and 12 inch twists. That's not to say someone didn't spend a bunch of money to have it made up. I've heard of 16" twist barrels in .308 being used in Hunter class bench rest, with bullet weights around 125 grains.

I've never tried Remington match ammo. My 700 Police shoots 9/16" groups with Federal Gold Medal Match, 168 grain loads. The gun is pillar bedded, but otherwise stock barreled action in the factory wood stock. So, they can be able to shoot well with factory ammo.

Remington's used to have very long throats in the .308's. I don't know if they still do or not. So, some trial and error to find the bullet-bullets that it likes will be in order.

Hope this helps.

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With a 1x12 twist You should be able to shoot up to 175 gn MKG bullets which have a higher Ballistic Coefficient than the 168s due to their shape. 175s are pointier. In a simple form, BC is how well the bullet flies through the air and keeps going. But if you're going to use factory stuff just shoot whatever shoots best in your rifle.

NOBODY can predict how YOUR gun is going to shoot with ANY AMMO. You may have the best or the worst factory rifle ever made. You could grab a handfull of your buddies finest load and it won't group for crap in your rifle. You may run into a limit on how well it will shoot with factory ammo but that's about it. If it's good enough it's good enough. In theory, a 1MOA rifle should be able to hold 1MOA(approx 6 inches) @ 600 yds. That will almost never be the case because the longer the bullet flies the more the imperfections in the bullet/powder charge/etc and wind affect where the bullet will go.

If you want to get serious you should have something to measure wind speed/bullet speed(chrono)/target distance along with some ballistic software to get your dope data.

I make spreadsheets with formulas to convert my dope data from the ballistic software into clicks for my scopes. There will also be variation from temp, Baro pressure, altitude,etc but those are usually pretty small numbers. If you have a load you like, PM me the bullet manufacture, weight, velocity, scope height from barrel bore, Zero range and your altitude and I can email you a sample spreadsheet of what I use.

Keep track of all your range sessions especially longer range. How many clicks it took, how well each load shot, etc. Sight in at 200 if possible.

I wouldn't expect to be doing head shots at 600 yds but if your rifle is good and it's a calm day 3-400 yds is within reach.

Nick

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On your choice for a rifle, go with a savage. They have a better twist rate for heavy bullets 1:10 versus 1:12 for a remington. You can get a model 12 F/TR which has a 30" barrel and match trigger (6oz) for about $950 and will shoot a 1/2 moa at 500 yards right out of the box. For a scope base get the Ferrall industries bases, and the rings to get are tactical precision's TSR rings. You can find them on Brownells web site, both will set you back about $120 if you get the gunsmiths prices. I have a Savage 110FP that will shoot 3/4" groups at 300 yard and as soon as the winds die down here in NM, ill start shooting at a 600 yard target, also when my leoupold 6.5-25x50 scope gets in.

.

I know you said you were going to buy loaded ammo, but heres what to get if you change your mind.

rock chucker single stage press, about $100, or any single stage of our choice.

100 Norma 308 cases $55

1000 CCI large rifle primers $25, since federal primers are impossible to get

1 hornandy match FL sizer $42

1 hornandy match neck sizer $42

1 redding .336 Ti neck sizing bushing $18

1 hornady file to trim die $24, don't waste your money for a trimming kit setup

1 redding compatition bullet seater $80

1 8lb keg of Varget $160, will load 1217 bullets at 46gr each

I use 168 or 175 gr berger VLD's with the same powder load, 46gr of varget and they cost $41/100 for both weights. I had purchased 500 pieces of norma brass and my intial 100 have been true 7 realoads so far with no sign of giving up the ghost.

if you want to have some real long range fun, Savage is making a 6.5/284 Norma rifle (Model 12 F class) and i'm going to have fun this weekend when I go down to my dealer and pick mine up.

Edited by JohnRodriguez

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i am totally new to long range rifle shooting and rifles in general. i do not want to do any competing with rifles as USPSA matches keep me plenty busy, so its just for fun. oh yeah and shooting 600 yards max.

I did alot of reading here and came to the consensus that a rem 700 in .308 would be a great starter rifle. i put a Nikon 6.5-18x40 with leupold rings and bases on it. i have a 1050 for reloading my 38 supercomp on and i dont not plan to reload 308, so i will be using factory ammo.

my questions...

1. there has been some topics about what weight of bullet to use...155 vs. 168 vs. 175... i thought you could only use one weight of bullet for a particular barrel twist rate?

2. when talking with a local rifle shooter, he had mentioned that it is going to be very difficult to achieve good results with a stock rifle and using factory ammo (remington premier match SMK 168 gr. BTHP)? any truth in this?

3. when sighting in my rifle i noticed that i have the windage knob almost all the way cranked down (left). is it possible that i have the scope on crooked??? i dont see anyway to adjust the bases???

4. my barrel has a twist rate of 1:12, so according to the greenhill equation a 168 gr bullet should be fine, right? or is there more to it than that???

thanks,

Will

Factory Match bullets from Win. Rem. or Federal will do nicely for what you plan. UMC .308 groups just over an inch out of my 700 P.

Like IPSC you'll be told that unless you spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours loading and prepping, you'll be unhappy with the results. And like IPSC this simply is not true, you can get great enjoyment out of the gear you have, just spend some time researching ballistic tables for the ammo you choose and learn how to adjust your scope for what you plan to do. I'm going to be doing some competing in Precision (sniper) matches this summer and what I'm using does not differ significantly from what you have.

Buy some ammo, set up your targets and have some fun!!!

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Judging by you original post it appears you own a factory Remington 700 with a 1 in 12 twist already.So here goes with my experience developing loads for a 700 XCR tactical.

-Remington premier match shoots right at 1/2 moa

-155 Lapua scenars to 175 SMK can be made to work out of the rifle, at shorted ranges like the 600 yards and below that you mentioned 168 gr will work great if developed correctly. They will group better at 100 yards then the 155s or the 175s, as these two seem to need a little more space to "settle in". I shoot 155 Lapua Scenars fairly often, and at 200yards or more they rock, but at 100 yards they suck. If I want to make "pretty" groups at the local 100 yard range I go for 168 smk, or 168 A-max. I do not push them as hard as my 155 load and this may account for thier superior short range accuracy. At 600 yards and in the 168s are most likely your best choice with this rifle.

-the chamber on a factory Remington will be very long, but with proper load development or good factory ammo it will shoot great.

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W. Abrahams,

New to the USPSA shooting but competed in my first highpower rifle match in the early 80's.

Been a police sniper and rifle competitor since 1989.

Rem 700 PSS is a stock rifle that will (usually) shoot better than it should using the parts they do.

Our department also uses the Rem 700 PSS in .308.

I have shot Fed Gold Medal Match 168 BTHP, Black Hills Gold 168 and 175 BTHP, Hornady 155 TAP, Remington ammo, lapua, lake City, etc....

Best ammo for MY RIFLE has been the Black Hills ammo and it shoots the 175 gr sweet.

Took the gold medal in the NYS police olympics sniper comp last year with it. Got a silver in cold bore and bronze in team event (Hat Trick!)

We were using the Federal 165 Tactical load for Intermediate Barrier shooting but it just would not print good out of MY rifle.

I have a friend from Wisconsin who has the same exact rifle and shoots the Fed 165 and swears by it.

Got to see what YOUR rifle likes.

My rifle likes the Black Hills 180 Accubond round for glass shooting.

If you want rifle advice as far as ammo and gunsmithing goes I know of some really good gunsmiths depending on where you live.

In the Southeast taks the trip to N.C. to Iron Brigade Armory and see Chandler for his tune up on the 700 or spend big buckos and walk away (in 18 months or so) with a Chandler sniper rifle).

In the North east you can go to Keene N.H. and see Al Warner of Warner tools Works and he builds awesome rifles. Just don't bug him once you settle on what you want done otherwise you'll get the response a friend of mine did which was "You'd better get up here to pick up your rifle because its done and I'm leaving it on my front lawn and its supposed to rain tonight."

Al does not like multiple phone calls asking "Are you done yet?"

When Brian arrived his rifle was indeed on Al's front lawn.

Don't piss off Al.

In toward the middle of the US in Missouri theres George Gardner of GA Precision (who built my custom rifle) who can build what others build and charges less money for a quality rifle. George has his shop next to Marty Bordsen of Badger Ord.

Out further theres Charlie Milazzo in Wisconsin who is a top notch guy as well as a top notch gunsmith. Holder of the patent for the Milazzo-Kreiger trigger that the AR-15 crowd loves so much.

Charlie was the guy that taught me about Remington rifles shooting better than they should.

Good man Charlie and a great guy to talk to.

Oh and if you mount a $300 scope on a $5000 sniper rifle?

You now have a $300 rifle.

You need good glass AND rings.

Badger rings ONLY buddy.

They're the ONLY rings that do not need lapping when mounted PROPERLY to a QUALITY base.

Al Warner refuses to mount anything to one of his rifles unless its a Nightforce or Schmidt and Bender scope.

I have a Nightforce on my custom gun and it was around $1100 for the scope. An S&B will run around $2800 or so.

The others have repeatability issues. Especially when you're moving between yard lines out to long range.

Take the rifle to one of the gunsiths that the police sniper community uses and not "Bubba".

Get your scope mounted properly with good quality rings and base.

Then buy some ammo whether its Black Hills, Federal, or whatever....and

Shoot that rifle.

A lot.

See what "food" it likes.

Then worry about what custom whiz bang buck rogers stuff you want done on it.

E-mail me if you wan to discuss this more.

JKSNIPER@OPTONLINE.NET

JK

"The hardest distance in sniping? Its the 6 inches between the shooters ears."

Ed Gross Crosshairs inc

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