Want drills to Improve calling shots

[SA Friday]

I'm having issues recently with dropping too many points. My stage times are about where they need to be compared to shooters of equal class, but I have recently stopped getting the points I usually get. I need to improve and solidify my ability to call my shots.

I have read about two drills that I think might help, berm shooting and shooting a target and marking another. Are there any other drills that I can work to get this straightened out?

[tgibson]

I don't remember where I read it, but the best explenation I hear was simply to hold the sights in proper alighnment on the target until the gun went off. I know this sounds pretty remedial, but when you think about it, things become a lot more simple. I quit worrieing about trigger prep so much and just concentrated on holding the sights where they needed to be. That way, no matter how hard I pulled on the trigger, the sights were still where they needed to be. Last match, I shot about 97% of the points available. While my times are a little bit slower, my points made up for it for the most part. The last critical part I would have to say is self control. If you can't make yourself slow down and shoot points, it will be very difficult for your accuracy to improve. My $.02 FWIW

Adios

TG

[AlamoShooter]

You want a drill - take two targets side by side = move the gun slowly from left to right across the targets and pull the trigger as you move the gun. when it fires make a "blink"/split second= fast call of what you saw and ware the shot should have hit the target. you could mark your crib sheet target, and thin make another pass higher or lower on the target again.

After two or three shots check the target. Or ,If you have to check it each time.

The split second is the important part the 1 tenth of a Blink of a second Call the shot. + it will most likely be just a bit more into the direction you were moving. as you get better you will be closer to your call.

If you are moving left to R. at a pace that takes you 2 seconds to move from one side to the next. the shot will hit about 2" more to the right than you first thought it would = Thats OK just learn to see the shot.

You can move faster and slower and do a few times with the gun "Still"

Last part of the drill Rewind your mental video and call the shot from five shots before. = can you see the shot break in your brain as a replay?

As you get good at it you can tell ware the first shot went on the second target in a 26 round stage= as you are picking up brass. When you can do that send me a check for $1,000 and I will send you a deploma

[HSMITH]

Just hold yourself accountable for the hits, BEFORE you shoot. Set a standard and toe the line.

[Flexmoney]

As alluded to...

Dropping points and calling shots aren't the same thing.

[SA Friday]

As alluded to...

Dropping points and calling shots aren't the same thing.

Why not? If I am calling an A and it's a C, then I dropped points. The dropped points are a symptom of not calling the shot correctly. What am I missing?

[Michael Carlin]

Calling your shots will improve your points only if you are working on shooting center shots.

The best call your shot exercise I have ever done was very educative.

A standard bullseye target at fifty yards.

Ten shots fired, endeavoring to shoot all X's on a standard 50 yard bullseye target.

Target shaded so bullet holes were not visible to shooter's naked eye.

Coach a couple meters to one side with spotting scope.

Goal, call the shot for direction from the center of the X-ring only. No value call, just direction.

Call made after each shot. Shoot, stop replay your mental tape, call the shot. Coach merely confirms the call or states "shot not on call"

(My score in this drill under great pressure was 96-6X; all shots on call).

This WILL improve your shot calling. Do not confuse this with any other skill drill. Here the time does not matter. What we want is the crystal clearly focused front sight, silhouetted in the muzzle flash, referenced to its location and direction of movement with reference to the rear sight notch. TOTAL focus in this drill is on the front sight.

One to five sessions of this, ten shots per session, will IMPROVE your shot calls!

Edited March 5, 2008 by Michael Carlin

[UW Mitch]

Michael, that drill sounds fantastic!

Thanks!

[j1b]

God brace yourselves. I'm in China, it's 4AM, I can't sleep, and I've found BE.com.

Here's what my sleep deprived thought process is on this whole idea of shot calling. And it's interesting because this topic has been pretty hot in the forums lately. It's great to see the interest in it, to understand the importance of it.

Shot calling is in it's most basic form seeing when you're shooting and then understanding the impact of what you're seeing to what actually happens on target from a hit perspective. It doesn't inherently mean better points but better points generally occur by default. I say understanding, but that's probably the wrong term - understanding means thought, means contemplate, means digest. What we're talking about here is milliseconds so use the term that makes that work for you.

The issue I see all the time is assumptions. Flat out assumptions. How many times do you see the person practiceing out on the range that is "just taping the non-A's" on the practice target. Or is shooting 20-30-40 shots on a target before taping? And how can we expect to get better with a practice routine like that? And I know I'm stepping on toes here because I'm certain some of the member here do that. To each his own on this one - but it makes no sense to me.

Is it enough to count the number of holes on the target and if there are no misses then shot calling is good? Maybe for some, not for me. Travis has a video on this, and I use a slightly different technique - but at the end of the day shot calling practice means longer practice sessions with fewer bullets. Put a target out at 25 yards, do a two shot draw, know what you saw. Know where you believe the shots should be, go down and tape and see if what you believed happen (based on what you saw) did happen. Then, when they are different (and many times they will be) start understanding the difference between what you thought you saw, what you did see, what you didn't see, and the impact on target. And sometimes here the trick is to learn to know what you don't know. I mean it's hard to say what you didn't see if you didn't see it right? But it's one of those things that if you know you're not seeing something because there is a delta with the targets then you know you've got to open your vision up. You're not seeing something. You've got to identify what that little something is.

The level that you hold yourself accountable to this will in fact dictate the level you reach with shot calling. And the degree with which you practice it will determine your proficiency at it.

It is exceptionally rare for me to shoot more than 4 shots on a target in practice before taping. Most of the time, I shoot a drill and tape. And when things are different than what I expected then I can start to dig deeper into why things happened based on what I saw. If I shot a drill 10 times before taping I just don't think I could get there. I couldn't say to myslef this shot must have been shot number 6 in string 4 and this is what I saw. I just don't have that capacity - maybe some do.

The perfect drill for you is the drill that allows you to correlate what you see with what happens on target.

J

[Ben Stoeger]

I have read about two drills that I think might help, berm shooting and shooting a target and marking another. Are there any other drills that I can work to get this straightened out?

Try Shooting long distance targets, going for 2 A's, but challenge yourself to keep shooting untill you get those A's (like if you shoot an Alpha Charlie.. then make up the Charlie with an Alpha)

Try Shooting medium to slow speed swingers in practice. Just slow enough that you can track the swinger and call your shots.

I don't know why the swinger thing helps, but I seem to more instinctivly track my sights on a moving target as opposed to a static one. Have fun!

[SA Friday]

As alluded to...

Dropping points and calling shots aren't the same thing.

Why not? If I am calling an A and it's a C, then I dropped points. The dropped points are a symptom of not calling the shot correctly. What am I missing?

OK, I was a work when I wrote this, so it was written fast. Let me expand a little.

I know not all of my misses and lesser scored shots are from erroneous shot calling. I have other issues too, and I am working on them, but overall, my ability to call my shots will be the deciding factor when it comes to improving. This is also the skill I am having the most trouble finding training techniques for. Thus the question and the thread.

I WOULD say this is wanna-be-speedy issues, but my times on the courses of fire are where they should be from last year. The hits are just not there. Ask the people I shoot with and I'm confident they would say the same thing.

Lastly, I have spent a lot of my stage shooting mental energy towards my movements while shooting and I have started to find where I need to be shaving time from my movement. But, this has cost me in my hits on occasion. Now, the kicker is getting my hits on stand-shoots. They have slipped as well, and I feel this is definately an issue of me not calling my shots.

[SA Friday]

j1b and Ben, thanks this is what I'm looking for. I never thought of trying the swinger in that way.

Flex, I am still interested in an explination about your previous post too.

[Flexmoney]

As alluded to...

Dropping points and calling shots aren't the same thing.

Why not? If I am calling an A and it's a C, then I dropped points. The dropped points are a symptom of not calling the shot correctly. What am I missing?

All beagles are dogs, but not all dogs are beagles. (or something goofy like that)

Assuming your gun if dead on....it sounds like you might be lacking some visual follow through. If so, that seems pretty common. Shooters stay with the vision long enough to decide that it looks good enough to pull the trigger, but they let the vision race ahead instead of staying on the sights/dot until the actual lift. It could even be a flinch or a blink that keeps a shooter from seeing the lift.

The lift is key to the call. For me, it's a mentally quieting experience. It takes a bit of a disciplined mind to allow yourself to see the lift, versus racing ahead to the next bit of chaos. (where is that chaos quote that Xre threw at us?)

Lots of great advice so far.

For follow through training, I suggest an extra sight picture after each shot. It's like you are lining up again to take an extra shot. What you are really doing is forcing yourself to stay with the sights.

For shooters that continue to look for holes in the target (mistakingly believing that is the way that shots are called), putting a black t-shirt over the target seems to work well for hiding holes.

[Michael Carlin]

Flex,

I had wondered about putting dark T-shirts on targets, I had seen it done, could not figure out why. Now you tell me! Thanks.

I deliberately avoided the dropped points vice the called shots question.

Here is why:

Most of us would not shoot less than an A on purpose.

If you call the shot good and it is not you were not, as Flexmoney points out, looking at the sight when the "front sight lifted".

(I personally think that if you are actually focused on the front sight you will see the front sight in the muzzle flash just as the sight lift commences.) At this point while the gun is tracking up in the recoil impulse you should reset the trigger. Simultaneously you are moving the gun to the next target and/or tracking the sights to the desired impact point on the target you want to hit.

(Notice that you are not looking at no-shoots or hard cover you are tracking the gun to the next desired Point of Impact).

You should reapply the initial pressure and while you are doing this. Just as the pistol has arrives at the area on the target that you wish engage your trigger control becomes more aggressive, by now your focus should be on the front sight. The muzzle flash should silhouette the same sharply focused front sight I mentioned earlier.

When I was shooting Service Pistol I could sometimes shoot five shots (strong hand only) in less than 10 seconds that would cut the 1.76" X ring out of a 25 yard rapid fire target. Occasionally I could do this two or three strings in a row. (For those who are unfamiliar with Bullseye pistol, there is no draw, you are lined up and ready to fire when the targets face.)

Now a question for the Grand Masters

Do you see the bits of primer in the muzzle flash, and do you reset the trigger as the pistol is in recoil and drive the sights back to the center while you are pulling the trigger? (Merriwether Lewis is reported to have described shooting .45 Service Pistol rapid fire as a "keep the trigger moving" and align the sights while so doing.

"Sights you best be gettin lined up 'cause the trigger is coming back!"

Edited March 6, 2008 by Michael Carlin

[SA Friday]

As alluded to...

Dropping points and calling shots aren't the same thing.

Why not? If I am calling an A and it's a C, then I dropped points. The dropped points are a symptom of not calling the shot correctly. What am I missing?

All beagles are dogs, but not all dogs are beagles. (or something goofy like that)

Assuming your gun if dead on....it sounds like you might be lacking some visual follow through. If so, that seems pretty common. Shooters stay with the vision long enough to decide that it looks good enough to pull the trigger, but they let the vision race ahead instead of staying on the sights/dot until the actual lift. It could even be a flinch or a blink that keeps a shooter from seeing the lift.

The lift is key to the call. For me, it's a mentally quieting experience. It takes a bit of a disciplined mind to allow yourself to see the lift, versus racing ahead to the next bit of chaos. (where is that chaos quote that Xre threw at us?)

Lots of great advice so far.

For follow through training, I suggest an extra sight picture after each shot. It's like you are lining up again to take an extra shot. What you are really doing is forcing yourself to stay with the sights.

For shooters that continue to look for holes in the target (mistakingly believing that is the way that shots are called), putting a black t-shirt over the target seems to work well for hiding holes.

I shot a match today with your above post ringing in my head. I really payed attention to where my misses (yep had a few) were. I am not following through with the second shot, and rushing my eyes to the next target. I am not always calling the miss, because I am not watching the sights, but finding and focusing on the next target.

I really want to work the other poster's training techniques to help me solidify my shot calling. I think the extra sight picture after shooting during practice might be the real trick to get me over from my visually self-inflicted chaos.

Good stuff.

Edited March 9, 2008 by SA Friday

[Flexmoney]

Most of us would not shoot less than an A on purpose.

Are you sure about that one?

(I personally think that if you are actually focused on the front sight you will see the front sight in the muzzle flash just as the sight lift commences.) At this point while the gun is tracking up in the recoil impulse you should reset the trigger. Simultaneously you are moving the gun to the next target and/or tracking the sights to the desired impact point on the target you want to hit.

(Notice that you are not looking at no-shoots or hard cover you are tracking the gun to the next desired Point of Impact).

Juat a sticky point to mention here... Ya don't want to keep your eyes glued on the front sight while transitioning between targets. If so, you won't know for sure where to drive the gun too. It's one of the main things that slows down target transitions (for those that use the front sight ). Instead, the technique there should be...

1. see the lift

2. snap the eyes to the next target spot...the gun will have to catch up

3. as the gun catches up, bring the vision back to find the front sight (or, just "see" the dot)

You should reapply the initial pressure and while you are doing this. Just as the pistol has arrives at the area on the target that you wish engage your trigger control becomes more aggressive, by now your focus should be on the front sight. The muzzle flash should silhouette the same sharply focused front sight I mentioned earlier.

When I was shooting Service Pistol I could sometimes shoot five shots (strong hand only) in less than 10 seconds that would cut the 1.76" X ring out of a 25 yard rapid fire target. Occasionally I could do this two or three strings in a row. (For those who are unfamiliar with Bullseye pistol, there is no draw, you are lined up and ready to fire when the targets face.)

Now a question for the Grand Masters

Do you see the bits of primer in the muzzle flash,

I don't know about primer flash? I see sparks from time to time, if the light is right (usually indoors). Are those the bits of primer that you are talking about?

and do you reset the trigger as the pistol is in recoil and drive the sights back to the center while you are pulling the trigger? (Merriwether Lewis is reported to have described shooting .45 Service Pistol rapid fire as a "keep the trigger moving" and align the sights while so doing.

"Sights you best be gettin lined up 'cause the trigger is coming back!"

Right on...the gun and the sights are always in some sort of motion. We don't really ever get them "still".

I prep the trigger. Both in recoil on the same target, and when coming into a target on a transition. The things I need to be mindful of there are...timing the gun, and...more importantly...visual patience.

[Flexmoney]

I shot a match today with your above post ringing in my head. I really payed attention to where my misses (yep had a few) were. I am not following through with the second shot, and rushing my eyes to the next target. I am not always calling the miss, because I am not watching the sights, but finding and focusing on the next target.

There you go. Do you see how the calling and where the bullet hits are kinda linked, but they really aren't the same thing?

There is a mental follow through as well as the physical follow through. And, the physical could even be further broken down into two parts... the eye movement and also the gun movement.

The mental part is what needs to come first. It makes a great foundation. It's a mindset issue. (and, that is what all those wanna-b-speedy threads are about)

It's really very fundamental...

[Flexmoney]

This is a great thead, btw.

Ever post has been a gem. Look back through them as see how all the different ways they tie together.

Alamo and Ben suggest a similar drill. One is a slow moving gun, the other is a slow moving target.

Michael C. suggest a great drill with 10-shots...IF you have a spotter with glass to check your calls. j1b, points out that you need to do the same...even if you are by yourself...by just shooting a couple of shots before taping and checking the calls.

So much more. Worth a re-read.

[Flexmoney]

Another theme within the thread...

It's impossible to miss. If you did, the gun wasn''t where you thought it was when the bullet finally left the barrel. So, why doesn't the shooter see that? You didn't see it, or you would know.

[-JQ-]

Shooters stay with the vision long enough to decide that it looks good enough to pull the trigger, but they let the vision race ahead instead of staying on the sights/dot until the actual lift. It could even be a flinch or a blink that keeps a shooter from seeing the lift.

Thanks for this point Flex. I think this was one of my problems yesterday. I was thinking more about the next target more than finishing my shot. PB had a bunch of targets per COF and some didn't have to be shot from a particular position "freestyle" if you will...and I think I let this polute my mind...as a beginner I'm making plenty of mistakes but trying to eliminate each one as I discover it...as I plan to get out of the D class asap.

Does anone use a mental matra? (eg. Target, front sight, sqeeze, lift, etc.) I'm sure this becomes second nature and many might not do it but I've wondered if it wouldn't help me be more consistant.

thx

[j1b]

Now a question for the Grand Masters

Do you see the bits of primer in the muzzle flash, and do you reset the trigger as the pistol is in recoil and drive the sights back to the center while you are pulling the trigger? (Merriwether Lewis is reported to have described shooting .45 Service Pistol rapid fire as a "keep the trigger moving" and align the sights while so doing.

"Sights you best be gettin lined up 'cause the trigger is coming back!"

Not me. And I'm not discounting what Flex is saying - lord knows I don't want to meet him in competition anytime soon.

I'm big on letting me do what I need to do without me getting in my own way. Confused? Yeah, I was too for a long time. And I'll just say my GM status is a little . . . aged . . .

That said, I don't have the capacity to calculate preloading the trigger. Do I do it? I don't know. Possibly yes. But it isn't a factor in how I approach shooting.

I've always been a goal focused person. I focus on shooting the targets how I believe they need to be shot. If I truly believe I can do that - and I mean inherently within my being of beings believe - then I just know that's what I need to do. My subconcious, my mind, my will, my whatever will find the way to do it. I just need to focus on watching the sights and the gun - and then let that "whatever" work it's mojo . . .

And that mojo changes as I practice more and I get more familiar with both what I'm seeing and how I react to what I'm seeing.

That's my take anyway.

J

Edited March 15, 2008 by j1b

[Flexmoney]

Now a question for the Grand Masters

Do you see the bits of primer in the muzzle flash, and do you reset the trigger as the pistol is in recoil and drive the sights back to the center while you are pulling the trigger? (Merriwether Lewis is reported to have described shooting .45 Service Pistol rapid fire as a "keep the trigger moving" and align the sights while so doing.

"Sights you best be gettin lined up 'cause the trigger is coming back!"

Not me. And I'm not discounting what Flex is saying - lord knows I don't want to meet him in competition anytime soon.

I'm big on letting me do what I need to do without me getting in my own way. Confused? Yeah, I was too for a long time. And I'll just say my GM status is a little . . . aged . . .

That said, I don't have the capacity to calculate preloading the trigger. Do I do it? I don't know. Possibly yes. But it isn't a factor in how I approach shooting.

I've always been a goal focused person. I focus on shooting the targets how I believe they need to be shot. If I truly believe I can do that - and I mean inherently within my being of beings believe - then I just know that's what I need to do. My subconcious, my mind, my will, my whatever will find the way to do it. I just need to focus on watching the sights and the gun - and then let that "whatever" work it's mojo . . .

And that mojo changes as I practice more and I get more familiar with both what I'm seeing and how I react to what I'm seeing.

That's my take anyway.

J

JB,

I don't see anything in your posts that conflicts with anything I said (or tried to say). Your post(s) seem spot on to me.

On my trigger prepping...it's not something I do by design. I just happen to know that I do it (and, I have propably got a good quarter inch more trigger movement than you might have).

[j1b]

Now a question for the Grand Masters

Do you see the bits of primer in the muzzle flash, and do you reset the trigger as the pistol is in recoil and drive the sights back to the center while you are pulling the trigger? (Merriwether Lewis is reported to have described shooting .45 Service Pistol rapid fire as a "keep the trigger moving" and align the sights while so doing.

"Sights you best be gettin lined up 'cause the trigger is coming back!"

Not me. And I'm not discounting what Flex is saying - lord knows I don't want to meet him in competition anytime soon.

I'm big on letting me do what I need to do without me getting in my own way. Confused? Yeah, I was too for a long time. And I'll just say my GM status is a little . . . aged . . .

That said, I don't have the capacity to calculate preloading the trigger. Do I do it? I don't know. Possibly yes. But it isn't a factor in how I approach shooting.

I've always been a goal focused person. I focus on shooting the targets how I believe they need to be shot. If I truly believe I can do that - and I mean inherently within my being of beings believe - then I just know that's what I need to do. My subconcious, my mind, my will, my whatever will find the way to do it. I just need to focus on watching the sights and the gun - and then let that "whatever" work it's mojo . . .

And that mojo changes as I practice more and I get more familiar with both what I'm seeing and how I react to what I'm seeing.

That's my take anyway.

J

JB,

I don't see anything in your posts that conflicts with anything I said (or tried to say). Your post(s) seem spot on to me.

On my trigger prepping...it's not something I do by design. I just happen to know that I do it (and, I have propably got a good quarter inch more trigger movement than you might have).

Just the part about knowing you do it. I don't. Know that is. I may do it. May not. But it isn't something I'm aware of.

Sorry I didn't clarify.

J