ebg3 Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 With the grip safety and firing pin block( if equiped) dissabled, a 1911 hammer should still have a half-cock notch to keep the hammer from fully striking the FP if dropped. This is another safety feature that separates xx11's from Glocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 My 2 cents. (And I agree with Sandorman). The Glock uses a partially cocked firing pin when ready to fire. I have seen those guns go full auto (At a way higher rate than 1911's) due to lousy trigger jobs, sludge in the FP channel, or just plain worn parts. The Glock is a simple design and it is very easy to work on and monkey with. That said, there is nothing to stop the gun from discharging, other than the FP safety if the striker slips off the cruciform. And since I see that area of the striker as the most common error in trigger jobs when I check I wouldn't be willing to say it's safe under any conditions. (FYI, I normally spend quite a bit of time with the Armorer at GSSF matches and I'm an armorer for about 500 guns. Conservatively I've worked on over 1000 Glocks). Beyond that there is the matter of emotional bias. Let's assume that there is no difference between removing the Glock FP safety and using a Series 70 Colt that has been around for almost 100 years. Gun falls, discharges, injures someone, or the bullet leaves the range and hits someones house a mile away. Which gun do you think the jury will be more sympathetic to, the 100 year historical gun, or the evil plastic one that you modified when no one else has? The one that you modified to make it go off easier. I still have never really figured out how the grip safeties get disabled. I always thought there was a rule that said you couldn't disable safeties. I'm sure everyone knows the answer to this but me, but is this not a rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandormen Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 I believe, with some uncertainty, that the grip-safety of the xx11's is actually a 'modern' addon, which is basically redundant, and therefore possible to deactivate by pinning it. (since the xx11's also got the external safety-switch) Basically the modern xx11's got 3 safeties, whereas two are needed to comply to the different rules regarding safety. I don't know though, if it is legal to deactivate the external safety-switch, but not the grip-safety, as it is vice-versa. It is perhaps legal to do it that way too, but I think that would make it impractical in practical shooting. -since the hammer would have to be down during LAMR, and then the shooter would have to cock it when the buzzer goes. (depending on divisions, SAO/DAO and such. It would be very confusing for rulemakers, RO's etc.) Although I cannot recall actually have seen any rules regarding pinning the safety-grip. It had me confused for a while, but it seems to be widely accepted. -And I don't mind, since the grip-safety is not essential for a safe gun. As long as it has a firingpin-block that has to be deactivated before the firingpin is released, and it has an external safety-switch of some kind. Then the gun can fall out of an holster as much as it'd like. Disregarding the fact that a DQ is being scribbled down behind ones back! If anyone could link to a rulebook addon that says specifically that the grip-safety can be pinned, I would appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 I believe that the grip safety has been part of the 1911 for at least a 95 some odd years. The gun was designed for cavalry use and the grip safety was included it to drop to the end of a lanyard without discharge. I am confused by which three safeties you're referring to on the 1911. The grip safety, thumb safety and ???. Only Series 80 Colts and a few other models include a firing pin safety. STI/SV/SPS do not include a firing pin safety. Having a FP safety on a 1911 is the exception, not the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandormen Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 (edited) I believe that the grip safety has been part of the 1911 for at least a 95 some odd years. The gun was designed for cavalry use and the grip safety was included it to drop to the end of a lanyard without discharge. I am confused by which three safeties you're referring to on the 1911. The grip safety, thumb safety and ???. Only Series 80 Colts and a few other models include a firing pin safety. STI/SV/SPS do not include a firing pin safety. Having a FP safety on a 1911 is the exception, not the rule. Ok. I thought the firingpin-safety would be the third. -Which would make the grip-safety somewhat redundant. I know, there will always be the issue of something weird entering the triggerguard, making the gun change direction of it's accidentally very hard free-fall, enabling 'it' to press the trigger all the way in to make the hammer release, and fire the gun, but... I believe the xx11/CZ/clones don't really need the FPB, if they have the thumb-safety, and/or a lowered/partially engaged hammer My error writing as if all xx11's got FPB, though! Edited March 11, 2008 by Sandormen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atmar Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 so when the beeper goes off and all safeties are off a dropped 1911 w/ a pinned grip safety is safer than a glock w/ only the drop safety functional? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 I believe that the grip safety has been part of the 1911 for at least a 95 some odd years. The gun was designed for cavalry use and the grip safety was included it to drop to the end of a lanyard without discharge. I am confused by which three safeties you're referring to on the 1911. The grip safety, thumb safety and ???. Only Series 80 Colts and a few other models include a firing pin safety. STI/SV/SPS do not include a firing pin safety. Having a FP safety on a 1911 is the exception, not the rule. The grip safety was added to the original design by JMB at the Army's demand, so it was in the gun ultimately supplied to their contract. He (according to report) did not like it and the proof is that it is conspicuously absent from his "masterpiece" the HI-Power.... which, BTW, did come with an internal fixed extractor as originally designed same as the 1911. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 I believe that the grip safety has been part of the 1911 for at least a 95 some odd years. The gun was designed for cavalry use and the grip safety was included it to drop to the end of a lanyard without discharge. I am confused by which three safeties you're referring to on the 1911. The grip safety, thumb safety and ???. Only Series 80 Colts and a few other models include a firing pin safety. STI/SV/SPS do not include a firing pin safety. Having a FP safety on a 1911 is the exception, not the rule. The grip safety was added to the original design by JMB at the Army's demand, so it was in the gun ultimately supplied to their contract. He (according to report) did not like it and the proof is that it is conspicuously absent from his "masterpiece" the HI-Power.... which, BTW, did come with an internal fixed extractor as originally designed same as the 1911. JMB was actually working on the Hi Power when he died. I don't think he had gotten very far in the design, iirc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 so when the beeper goes off and all safeties are off a dropped 1911 w/ a pinned grip safety is safer than a glock w/ only the drop safety functional? Depends. The firing pin on the 1911 is still held back by a firing pin spring. It is held away from the primer. The firing pin on a Glock is just waiting for release. A release which has happened very easily from lateral impact as well as improperly fit parts. If the Glock hasn't been monkeyed with by a knuckledhead, it should be okay. But I wouldn't be willing to be the person who removed a FPB from a Glock isn't a knucklehead. Not saying one way or the other, I'm just not willing to put my money on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atmar Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 i know a cop personally who carried his 1911 cocked and locked. he was doing some office work when his gun bumped into the side of a table. he now walks with a limp. thats with 2 safeties working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 My comments in bold. First, we should probably define the issue; is a Glock w/o a firing pin block safety as safe (or safer) than a 1911 w/o a firing pin block safety if it is dropped during a stage, causing the hammer/striker to be jarred off to be jarred free of its sear. so when the beeper goes off and all safeties are off a dropped 1911 w/ a pinned grip safety is safer than a glock w/ only the drop safety functional? Depends. The firing pin on the 1911 is still held back by a firing pin spring. It is held away from the primer. Yes, but we know that a cocked hammer has more than enough force to overcome the the resistance of the firing pin spring...otherwise, it would never fire. Better hope and pray the half-cock notch catches it. The firing pin on a Glock is just waiting for release. Not true. The act of pulling the trigger compresses the striker spring, then releases the striker while the striker is at its rearmost point. If the gun is dropped, no one is pulling on the trigger. Thus, it would not have the full force of the striker spring behind it; comparing it to a 1911, it would be like having the hammer fall from the half-cock notch. This weekend, maybe I'll try to see whether the amount of force is enough to set off a primer from this uncompressed state. A release which has happened very easily from lateral impact as well as improperly fit parts. If the Glock hasn't been monkeyed with by a knuckledhead, it should be okay. But I wouldn't be willing to be the person who removed a FPB from a Glock isn't a knucklehead. Not saying one way or the other, I'm just not willing to put my money on it. Now that's just emotional bias, similar to some bullseye shooters I've heard saying, "Oh man, those IPSC shooters are DANGEROUS!!! They shoot guns with 1.5-2.0 lb triggers...and THEY RUN WITH A LOADED GUN! We need to ban them from the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 This one is done here folks. All we are seeing is back and forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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