kurtm Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 (edited) Here it is. Limited really is one of the lowest attended divisions. It is hard to shoot it well, and it isn't attracting "new shooters" even though it is the least costly of all 3-gun divisions. Several MDs are starting to think about not offering Limited/Iron sight division. Let me know what you think! KurtM Edited February 24, 2008 by kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout454 Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Keep Limited. Like Heavy Metal, that's where it started and there are still people who shoot it. And if my eyes hadn't gone to hell, I'd still shoot irons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gl Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Here it is. Limited really is one of the lowest attended divisions. It is hard to shoot it well, and it isn't attracting "new shooters" even though it is the least costly of all 3-gun divisions. Several MDs are starting to think about not offering Limited/Iron sight division. Let me know what you think! KurtM It is hard to shoot well and that is the reason it is a seperate division now, that is exactly why I think it should be kept. I say do not do away with it. The seperate scoring can't be that hard. Kurt why do you feel they want to do away with it? Please give all the viable reasons. I am sure that will get folks responding to this post! I really don't see why they want to dump it. Guy Hawkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Lack of participation has always been the reason I've been told. I say it should stay, but then I shoot that division, there are those out there that feel it is a waste of entries, and a loophole division. Yes, its harder to do well with a rifle, but when did effort become a bad thing. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 24, 2008 Author Share Posted February 24, 2008 I don't "feel that they are" I have been told they are going to! When you only get 12- 15 guys in a big match that are shooting Iron why keep it? That is the reasoning. 15 guys out of a total of 250 is only 6% of your match participation. Why tie up the scoring for only 6% and split the prise table for only 6%? That is the reasoning. So lets hear it! I tried to make this a poll, but I am archaic, just like my sighting system, and couldn't figure out how to do it! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 If you turn this into a Poll I think you will find VERY FEW who would do away with the division. It may be a small group...But they are just as important as any other! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 (edited) Keep it. I don't need Kurt, Bruce P., Robbie J., or any of the other fast guys moving into tactical Plus I like to shoot limited too. Edited February 24, 2008 by Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 I don't "feel that they are" I have been told they are going to! When you only get 12- 15 guys in a big match that are shooting Iron why keep it? That is the reasoning. 15 guys out of a total of 250 is only 6% of your match participation. Why tie up the scoring for only 6% and split the prise table for only 6%? That is the reasoning. So lets hear it!I tried to make this a poll, but I am archaic, just like my sighting system, and couldn't figure out how to do it! KURTM Wow, sounds like Revolver division. Maybe you should support getting rid of revolver too. I would go over to the revolver thread and recommend that over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 The thing I find funny, is that at the first match where there was talk of just doing away with Irons because of only 15 or 20 shooters, there was 3 or 4 more shooters in Open, but there was no talk of eliminating that division. If I am forced to shoot with an optic I will do it, but I'd rather not be forced. I tend to retalliate when I am FORCED, to do anything. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gl Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 (edited) What percentage usually shoots he-person division in matches? (he-man is sexually biased.......LOL!) Maybe we should create a rule that the participants in any division must have more than 10-15% of the overal shooters in the match or they have the option of shooting in the next closely appropriate division based on their equiptment............or going home. That will draw them in. Man, I think that would work out great!!! The next thing we should do is be like IDPA and have a 10 round magazine limit since that makes sense as well. I only carry 10 rounds in my Glock 17 since they created that rule.(sarcasm) Guy Hawkins P.S. Which matches are saying that they are going to do away with iron division?? I don't believe in retaliation but persuasive pressure I do believe in. Edited February 24, 2008 by gl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 I don't "feel that they are" I have been told they are going to! When you only get 12- 15 guys in a big match that are shooting Iron why keep it? That is the reasoning. 15 guys out of a total of 250 is only 6% of your match participation. Why tie up the scoring for only 6% and split the prise table for only 6%? That is the reasoning. So lets hear it!I tried to make this a poll, but I am archaic, just like my sighting system, and couldn't figure out how to do it! KURTM Kurt, I feel the same way about HM. And its now cleaved even further with optics. I too like running irons but would rather have more than a dozen guys with which to compete. I have been thinking of making this my last (4th) season of HM and then slip back over to Limited. I feel the lower turnout in Limited is due Tactical Division and its shorter learning curve. Increased participation would keep the division alive. But how do we get people to play with us using irons? As you have said "it is about customers" If Limited goes away will the shooters? Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Dang it Pat, thats the term I've been searching for throughout your original topic "learning curve".................And you can admit it without shame, its because I'll be shooting HM, that you've decided to go back to Limited. you just don't want to be associated with me...........sniff. sniff.........its Ok, I'll be Ok, sniff. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M ammo Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Keep limited. 3 Gun as a whole needs to be an inclusive game. The more the better. I run 3 Gun matches and we have 6 classes. To include “other”. So you can show up with just about anything that is center fire. And play. I hear a tone that is anti division, like having more Divisions is going to kill the sport. The more people that play this game. Will filter more people to what they like “Choice” I shoot well but the prize table is usually out of my grasp. So splitting up the win place or show booty. At a big match is not an issue this Might be an issue for some. one reason I like to shoot big matches I have to travel to, is because I don’t have to work the match. I just get to paste targets and shoot. For organizing a match drawing up all the stages, being a match director being an RO during the match. If they double my pay it would still be $ ZERO! Printing out three more certificates for another class hurts no one. If this is all a USPSA issue. And that is all you shoot or want to shoot? You should be able to do so. USPSA seems to have a feeling. I can’t put my thumb on. But they seem to have a hard time filling up big matches. Maybe I need to, see DR Phil. I can’t fix that. For USPSA I know our little match. Drew 43 shooters yesterday. For our monthly match. Some participants drove 5 hours to come and play. Outlaw rules. Yes They are fair and people are showing up. Jim M ammo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Just to let everyone know, it's not Rocky Mountain or Johnson. We will be keeping Iron! I'll be honest, I shoot tactical because of the shorter learning curve. JJ shoots Open because of the toys, but as we speak, he's setting up a limited (iron sighted) rifle. Yes, it's not the biggest division, but it seems to me it's very important. I don't love having 5 divisions, but not because of the scoring. It's tough dividing up the prize table. I'd be happy if Rocky Mountain had 40 people in each division. That would be great! I could divide the prize tables more evenly. With time plus scoring (which we use), and no C class, B class etc, I think it's very difficult for us "average" people to compete in tactical. There are just so many shooters. I personally, would rather see it spread around a little. I know that some of you feel He-Man Optics takes away from He-Man Iron, but I'm not sure. Maybe it takes away from Tactical. Anyway, just my two cents! Both JJ and I think Iron is important! It does take good eyes and probably more skill with long rifle. We'll be keeping it! What worries me, is if other matches drop it, no one will practice irons, and then they won't sign up for iron for our matches either. 400 yards is a long way to see with irons, especially if you haven't practiced! Denise and JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bore Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 I tried get the number of limited shooters that shot the Iromman the last few years but the link is down on the there web site. So I will go off of memory. Last year there was maybe only 12 -16 limited shooters. The year before a few more. The year before a few more than that. There was not a prize for winning Limited in 2007 just a trophy. I don't know if that was a function of the low number of shooters in the limited division or what. The number of limited shooters is going down in my opinion. It is a tough division to shoot, maybe because you have to actually practice to do well. The other divisions seem to have the new wonder gadgets coming out on regular basis. "The new whiz bang scope that will do everything but put gas in your car." for example. Some of these items work some do not. But none take the place of getting out and practicing. I cannot point fingers too much because I do not get out and practice enough either. So some matchs are placing a minimum number of shooters before they will split us out as a division. I believe that Rocky Mountain 3gun is doing that this year. Last year I put on a inexpensive 1x3 weaver and shot the match since they were scoring everyone together. To paraphrase a quote I read here somewhere is that: "I felt like I was cheating." To answer your question: No do not get rid of Limited. Do we have any say if they get rid of Limited, maybe. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gl Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 (edited) Here is a picture of an iron sighted shooter (on the right) attempting to sign up for one of the matches which will place him in the scoped class with his irons Moderator Note: Picture removed due to the fact that it is heavily copyrighted and exceptionally inappropriate for a forum based on shooting sports. Edited February 24, 2008 by Pharaoh Bender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gl Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 400 yards is a long way to see with irons, especially if you haven't practiced! Denise and JJ You just made the case for keeping iron sight class! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 I think limited should be kept. In fact, I think that participation in limited class should be made mandatory. Yes indeed, a classifier stage with a minimum score to be able to move to other divisions for anyone under 45 yrs old. The only exceptions being individuals with a doctor's note saying the shooter has developed C.S.S. (can't see $hit )and needs opics. Everybody else has to actually qualify to get out of shooting iron sights and into the "equipment race". Seriously though, keep limited and lose HM optics. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VNGunfighter Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 (edited) Here is a picture of an iron sighted shooter (on the right) attempting to sign up for one of the matches which will place him in the scoped class with his irons: Moderator Note: Picture removed due to the fact that it is heavily copyrighted and exceptionally inappropriate for a forum based on shooting sports.WOW Guy, this is an ARVN dude shooting a suspected NVA bad guy, I would hate to see it if I showed up to your matches with irons?? I would put up more of a fight, in this case. Jimmy Edited February 24, 2008 by Pharaoh Bender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 I don't "feel that they are" I have been told they are going to! When you only get 12- 15 guys in a big match that are shooting Iron why keep it? That is the reasoning. 15 guys out of a total of 250 is only 6% of your match participation. Why tie up the scoring for only 6% and split the prise table for only 6%? That is the reasoning. So lets hear it!I tried to make this a poll, but I am archaic, just like my sighting system, and couldn't figure out how to do it! KURTM Wow, sounds like Revolver division. Maybe you should support getting rid of revolver too. I would go over to the revolver thread and recommend that over there. I would agree, it makes sense logically, but not emotionally. Some grown men are too emotional to lose their favorite division and would throw a big sissy fit. Logically if there should be X number of competitors to recognize a division (ala. IPSC modified at majors.) I think there are more logistical/cost problems having so many divisions for the small to medium sized matches/clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Iron sights? Does anyone still shoot those things? Just kidding Kurt. I have absolutely no problem with letting as many iron sight shooters sign as want to. I don't see any reason to restrict the number of divisions but I do think the rewards should be equal to the participation. If there are only 6% of the registered shooters signed up in a division, they should only get 6% of the prize table. I also don't like the matches where the iron sight shooters are factored into the optics division, like SMM3G has done. It works okay if there are a couple shooters there like Kurt who can make sure the Iron sight scores are high enough. But if there aren't any really good Limited shooters it skews the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gl Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Here is a picture of an iron sighted shooter (on the right) attempting to sign up for one of the matches which will place him in the scoped class with his irons:Picture removed WOW Guy, this is an ARVN dude shooting a suspected NVA bad guy, I would hate to see it if I showed up to your matches with irons?? I would put up more of a fight, in this case. Jimmy Jimmy, Just don't show up with handcuffs on and you will be fine! LOL! Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sono Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 As far as prize tables I thought they were split due to % in class. Ft. Benning Optics table was 10X the size of HM but there were 10X the shooters. As far as prizes go average folks like me will never get the nice stuff. Lets remember why most of us shoot, and thats for fun, competition, and laughs with good sportsmanship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 I shoot optic but always thought it should be limited and open, like pistols. Learn to shoot!! The big problem is we would looses like half of the 3gun shooters permanently if we had no optics division, Limited too hard, Open too expensive. "Dont" get rid of Limited! Even though it looks like the ARMY is getting rid of Limited (acog,eo,aimpoint) As "Practical shooters" we cannot let the skill be forgotton!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 I'm not going to jump up & down & yell & scream, but I sure hope they keep limited. I don't want to shoot optics until my eyes force me to. Hopefully, that is a ways off. MLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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