rgkeller Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 ... that holds the dot steady, really steady? Steady enough for two A double taps at twenty yards without the need to acquire a second sight picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhglyn Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 If there is.....................I want two of them, NOW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 That is the holy grail of Open guns. The 9x25 is as close as it gets, but it is not there either. Most people have given up on minimal dot movement and seek consistency in movement instead. It is not as important how far the dot moves if it returns to the original point in .07 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Mine does exactly that except for the part about no second sight picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 ... that holds the dot steady, really steady?Steady enough for two A double taps at twenty yards without the need to acquire a second sight picture? You forgot to add, aims itself to the A zone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkbrd Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Sure just ask any one who has never shot Open and they will tell you. Its all the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhglyn Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 ... that holds the dot steady, really steady?Steady enough for two A double taps at twenty yards without the need to acquire a second sight picture? You forgot to add, aims itself to the A zone... When I order mine I will add the "never have to reload" option too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 All the SmartAssin' aside, the answer is ... Well my two cents worth at lest is that it doesn't matter. You have three distinct parts to the shooting platform - the gun, the ammunition, and the shooter. Even if you built a gun and ammo combo that cancelled recoil 100%, the shooter is still moving, even if that movement is just the movement of a single finger. So, the utopia of open guns is to bring the gun and ammo as close as mechanically possible to this ideal consistently and pair the gun with a technically sound shooter. Or in my case, forget the BS and go shoot and have fun! Anyway, how can you call the shot if you don't have a sight picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 When I shoot Limited for a while and have REAL recoil and muzzle rise I can switch to my Open gun and it feels like there is NO recoil and I don't see much if any dot rise. Shoot Open for a while and the gun starts kicking, the dot goes up almost to the the lower B line on a 15 yard target. Go back to Limited and that sucker REALLY jumps!!! Either the guns are changing or I am manhandling the Limited gun, and I don't think the guns are changing. It is only my perception that changes. I always come off the first stage when I switch to Limited again and say something about 'WOW that thing jumps!!' and someone that was watching will tell me the front sight didn't move up even an inch and a half. Grip is the real key if you have a decent Open gun built for current power factor and are actually running current power factor plus a couple. Grip is the real key to having the dot perform the way you want it to. You can port the barrel and switch comps and switch powders and switch bullets and on and on and ON! Learning the gun you have and refining your grip is far more efficient in my mind. Dot rise HELPS my shooting. I cannot call a shot with very little dot rise, it just isn't decisive for me when I can't see the dot LEAVE where the bullet went. Shortly after I switch back to Open I will start to ALLOW the gun to shoot, watch it shoot, and just let the dot tell me what I need to know. Scores jump up, times go down, and it just plain works better. The Holy Grail of Open guns for me would be an Open gun that performs decently but with half the noise and blast. I would break the bank for one of those..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 >>Anyway, how can you call the shot if you don't have a sight picture.<< You would have one sight picture rather than two. Using the time gained to focus on the next target. Calling the shot is a means to the desired end, not the end itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 All of the open guns I build have the no movement feature in them, I just have'nt found a shooter to take advantage of it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Who has tested their splits just banging at the berm absolutely as fast as possible against shooting a called pair of shots at 15 yards? I have, but I will wait a bit and see if anyone else has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Who has tested their splits just banging at the berm absolutely as fast I have, and, semi-relevant to the question posed, watching where those hits land can be interesting. The way I learned it is, hammer some shots at a target, 5 yards away. If the string rises, put in a slightly heavier spring. When the shots all land in the same place, what you will have accomplished is "tuning" the recoil impulse to match your own recovery timing, so that it returns to the same spot at the instant you're ready for it. Not a big thing, but... couldn't hurt? $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nphd2000 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 "All of the open guns I build have the no movement feature in them, I just have'nt found a shooter to take advantage of it yet." One of the grumpy old guys at a range I shoot at says "I don't shoot one of those dot guns because all the ones I have seen are broken, the damn dot wiggles all over the screen" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Some of you guys have some FAST fingers I cant seem to shoot any better split...just shooting the berm Than I can seeing both sight pictures..(dots) This does not imply the second dot was where I wanted it ...Just that I saw it Slow Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 ... that holds the dot steady, really steady?Steady enough for two A double taps at twenty yards without the need to acquire a second sight picture? I actually have one of these in my safe. I never shoot it in a match cause where would the fun be in winning a match with a gun that does all of the work for you. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 where would the fun be in winning a match with a gun that does all of the work for you. That's the whole point of Open, isn't it? All you have to do is turn on the dot and hold on tight. The gun does everything else for you... ...at least, that's what *my* Open gun does. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 where would the fun be in winning a match with a gun that does all of the work for you. That's the whole point of Open, isn't it? All you have to do is turn on the dot and hold on tight. The gun does everything else for you... ...at least, that's what *my* Open gun does. B Yep, that is why I have been "shooting" (something you can not do with an open gun) single stack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 ... that holds the dot steady, really steady?Steady enough for two A double taps at twenty yards without the need to acquire a second sight picture? I thought all Open shooters shot every target with one sight picture, some were just better timed than others. I thought we were searching for that zero lift and no second sight picture with the 50+ ounce limited battle cruisers? Where did I go wrong??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 >>Anyway, how can you call the shot if you don't have a sight picture.<<You would have one sight picture rather than two. Using the time gained to focus on the next target. Calling the shot is a means to the desired end, not the end itself. Even if all the shooting magic were there...the lack of the call on the second shot will likely slow down the shooting, rather than speed it up. Knowing is decisive...allowing the shooter to move to the next activity with surety. Nothing wrong with perfecting your equipment, but the real magic always seems to come back to execution of fundamentals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 ... that holds the dot steady, really steady?Steady enough for two A double taps at twenty yards without the need to acquire a second sight picture? I thought all Open shooters shot every target with one sight picture, some were just better timed than others. I thought we were searching for that zero lift and no second sight picture with the 50+ ounce limited battle cruisers? Where did I go wrong??? I thought the only sight picture an open shooter every took was after the "Load and Make Ready" but before the "Standby" commands were given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Steady enough for two A double taps at twenty yards without the need to acquire a second sight picture? The "double tap" is a fallacy. If you do not acquire some type of sight picture for each shot, you simply are pulling the trigger and not at all knowing where the bullets are going. Even if the gun itself could literally vent gas and push itself around in just the right way so as to have no actual dot movement (apparent dot movement is a completely different thing), the shooter is still going to affect where the gun is pointed - we're indexing the gun, moving ourselves, etc. Hammering a target with unconfirmed shots does not at all guarantee that you didn't over/under-index or pull off a target on the way to the next one, or whatever. Your brain will learn how to do several things on your behalf, including the muscling required to allow the gun to drive itself back onto target where it left, and how to follow a consistent dot movement to know when and where the gun is going to come to rest, and therefore to begin prepping the trigger to break a shot at that opportune moment. If there is no movement to visually follow (ie, the dot literally doesn't move) or the movement that is there is inconsistent, all that gets destroyed, and you can't actually shoot the gun - accurately - as fast as you can otherwise.... That's why you'll see me say that "flat" is a fallacy, at least in the way that most people want their guns to be flat. "Consistent" is far more important.... The 9x25 is as close as it gets, but it is not there either. Most people have given up on minimal dot movement and seek consistency in movement instead. It is not as important how far the dot moves if it returns to the original point in .07 seconds. Yep... definitely consistency. I haven't shot every 9x25 made, by any stretch, but the ones I've shot have suffered from a lack of consistency in how they cycle - and one of them definitely had that "negative apparent flip" thing going on.... My brain just didn't even begin to know what to do with that! They definitely tend to stay a bit flatter, but they seem to just want to move differently on every shot for me.... Who has tested their splits just banging at the berm absolutely as fast as possible against shooting a called pair of shots at 15 yards? I have, but I will wait a bit and see if anyone else has. <raises hand> .... You might find it interesting to know that my called/aimed pairs at 15 pretty much match my splits when I'm running a timing drill. On just two shots up close and personal, I can shoot aimed/called pairs of shots more quickly... My timing drill and 15 yard splits tend to hover in the .15-.18 range, while I routinely go for .11-.13 on close targets (again, aimed/called pairs). Interestingly, we had a 12-ish yard target in the last match, and I got one of those "relax the grip and rock the gun" doubles on the target. It was a .10 split, and both were in the A, so... I didn't call the 2nd one, though - I didn't know it was on the target until I inspected it... Nothing wrong with perfecting your equipment, but the real magic always seems to come back to execution of fundamentals. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 So, evidently the answer is "no." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 I think there answer is...that there is more to it. If it were just a matter of the perfect gun setup and the perfect load...everybody would be shooting it already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 So, evidently the answer is "no." That is correct, and your physics teacher says so too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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