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Swiching guns mid-match.


austinkroe

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OK, I know the rule about a gun failure but I had another thought.

What happens if someone goes minor at the chrono?

I was thinking that if someone went minor at the chrono would they be allowed to really go minor. Say you are shooting Limited and you go minor with your .40 S_I. In your bag is a 9mm Limited set up. Can you request to use your 9 setup and re-chrono?

Heck if you are going to go minor then why not be allowed to take advantage of some of its benefits?

Thoughts, comments?

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I'm going to guess no based on the rule:

6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare

one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other

competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior

to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire.

The chronograph is usually one of the stages in the match, i.e., one does not go to the chrono before the match in most cases.

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Yeah but I didn't mean to switch divisions. What I mean is that I have two almost identical guns one is a 40 and the other is a 9. If I were to go minor with the forty I would be shooting the match as minor. Could I consider it as an equipment failure and trade it out for another gun that would also be shooting minor?

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5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor's original handgun and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute handgun and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied:

5.1.7.1 The substitute handgun satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division.

5.1.7.2 In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage.

5.1.7.3 The competitor's ammunition, when tested in the substitute handgun attains the minimum power factor using the match chronograph (see Rule 5.6.3.9).

So, no, you're not allowed to do it.

Edited by Skywalker
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Yeah but I didn't mean to switch divisions. What I mean is that I have two almost identical guns one is a 40 and the other is a 9. If I were to go minor with the forty I would be shooting the match as minor. Could I consider it as an equipment failure and trade it out for another gun that would also be shooting minor?

From what you have written it seems as if you would be seeking to make your shooting easier with lower pf minor loads. That would probably be seen as gaining a competitive advantage and be denied under 5.1.7.2

Just like those folks in before me said :goof:

dj

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OK, I know this isn't the original question, but in the same spirit; lets say a shooter has chrono'ed with a 40 cal Edge and made major. His gun breaks, and he petitions the RM to use his back-up gun; a 45 cal Edge. As the RM or MD, would you allow the change of firearm and ammo?

BTW, I said yes, but he had to re-chrono (he made major with the 45 ammo).

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If the gun breaks (becomes unserviceable) then the RM only has to make rather simple decisions. In your scenario the gun fits the division requirements, it cannot reasonably be construed that the shooter is gaining an advantage, and he made Major PF at the chrono.

It is a legal substitution.

Gary

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  • 2 weeks later...
OK, I know the rule about a gun failure but I had another thought.

What happens if someone goes minor at the chrono?

I was thinking that if someone went minor at the chrono would they be allowed to really go minor. Say you are shooting Limited and you go minor with your .40 S_I. In your bag is a 9mm Limited set up. Can you request to use your 9 setup and re-chrono?

Heck if you are going to go minor then why not be allowed to take advantage of some of its benefits?

Thoughts, comments?

Austin,

Now that we got you a man's gun you just need to accept that it takes man loads.

Shoot major you wussy! :angry2::cheers:

Chris

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Ok, let me throw this out there. If I am shooting at a major match and my Revo (S&W 610 shooting major with .40's) craps out, could I replace it with my 686 in .357 if I made power factor and finish the match? I dont have the money for a second 610 at this point in my life :angry2: Just wondering, and thanks for the input.

Jon

Edited by snertley
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Skywalker's post above covers this. If the Range Master finds that:

5.1.7.1 The substitute handgun satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division.

5.1.7.2 In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage.

5.1.7.3 The competitor's ammunition, when tested in the substitute handgun attains the minimum power factor using the match chronograph (see Rule 5.6.3.9).

....you should be OK to go with the 686.

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Ok, let me throw this out there. If I am shooting at a major match and my Revo (S&W 610 shooting major with .40's) craps out, could I replace it with my 686 in .357 if I made power factor and finish the match? I dont have the money for a second 610 at this point in my life :angry2: Just wondering, and thanks for the input.

Jon

No, you would also be changing the caliber of ammunition.

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Ok, let me throw this out there. If I am shooting at a major match and my Revo (S&W 610 shooting major with .40's) craps out, could I replace it with my 686 in .357 if I made power factor and finish the match? I dont have the money for a second 610 at this point in my life :angry2: Just wondering, and thanks for the input.

Jon

No, you would also be changing the caliber of ammunition.

What is the rule number that says you can't change caliber.

This is what I found "The competitor’s replacement handgun and its appropriate

ammunition must be chronographed per Rule 5.6, regardless of

whether or not the original handgun was previously tested."

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Ok, let me throw this out there. If I am shooting at a major match and my Revo (S&W 610 shooting major with .40's) craps out, could I replace it with my 686 in .357 if I made power factor and finish the match? I dont have the money for a second 610 at this point in my life :angry2: Just wondering, and thanks for the input.

Jon

No, you would also be changing the caliber of ammunition.

What is the rule number that says you can't change caliber.

This is what I found "The competitor’s replacement handgun and its appropriate

ammunition must be chronographed per Rule 5.6, regardless of

whether or not the original handgun was previously tested."

per that rule then it might be permissable providing it does not provide a competitive advantage.

5.1.7.2 In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a

competitive advantage.

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OK, what about the other option...

You've got a 40 that accidentally chrono'd minor (160ish). So, you go to your car and get that 40 ammo that you loaded minor (130ish)...

Legal?

That leads me to another question. I've never shot a match with a chrono stage, so I'm ignorant. Who pics the ammo to chrono, the shooter or the RO? Could an unsavory type cheat, and sneak some major PF in for chrony?

Edited by Jeff686
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OK, what about the other option...

You've got a 40 that accidentally chrono'd minor (160ish). So, you go to your car and get that 40 ammo that you loaded minor (130ish)...

Legal?

Yes. 160 minor scores the same as 130 minor, minor is minor.

Now is is the right thing to do? That is up to you to decide. I only take the same lot of ammo that I loaded to the match, so if I busted major and mad minor at 160 that is what I would be shooting the rest of the match.

One would have to wonder about the competitor that has another batch of ammo in the car, for those just in case I go minor days. :ph34r::ph34r::lol:

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That leads me to another question. I've never shot a match with a chrono stage, so I'm ignorant. Who pics the ammo to chrono, the shooter or the RO? Could an unsavory type cheat, and sneak some major PF in for chrony?

Depends on the match officials, Usually chrono will be collected at the your first stage of the match. But if you read the rules, match officials can pull and chrono rnds at any time during the match, even after you have already passed the chrono stage. Yes, some will try to cheat and this is why the ammo can be pull at any time if match RO's feel something is a miss. When I have run Chrono, I will some times pull mags off a shooters belt instead of just just accepting what they give me.

MDA

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No, you would also be changing the caliber of ammunition.

That was an old rule enforced until about 2003 (I have found it in IPSC rulebook since 13th edition, 1996):

5.2.6.1 The substitute handgun satisfies the requirements of the declared Division and is of the same type, action, and caliber as the handgun the competitor used to start the competition.

Since rulebook 2004 this requirement (being of the same caliber) has been dropped.

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OK, what about the other option...

You've got a 40 that accidentally chrono'd minor (160ish). So, you go to your car and get that 40 ammo that you loaded minor (130ish)...

Legal?

Yes. 160 minor scores the same as 130 minor, minor is minor.

Now is is the right thing to do? That is up to you to decide. I only take the same lot of ammo that I loaded to the match, so if I busted major and mad minor at 160 that is what I would be shooting the rest of the match.

One would have to wonder about the competitor that has another batch of ammo in the car, for those just in case I go minor days. :ph34r::ph34r::lol:

But what about the competitor who has two batches of ammo in the bag?

There's no rule that says a competitor's ammo has to be all the same PF. So a minor caliber shooter could have, say, a batch of lower (127-130) PF ammo for stages that are all paper, and in the same bag a box or two of ammo that chronos higher or has heavier bullets for a higher PF (145ish) to load up for stages that are significantly steel-based.

As long as whatever is run over the chono clocks at the appropriate velocity/bullet weight to make the PF, no harm, no foul -- and not against the rules.

Edited by Punkin Chunker
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