chuckbradley Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 By now many of you have heard the Bluegrass range has been closed. THis club has a long range rifle range, a general member range where everything is shot, a bulls eye range and 6-7 IPSC pits. These are the ranges closed due to a neighbor claiming 3 .223 bullets lodged into his house/buildings came from the club. We had a meeting last night and the motion to reopen the Bullseye and Pits failed 16-5. This motion was under the condition that any shooting would be only in sanctioned matches supervised by Certified Range officers. The bad thing is none of these sanctioned groups most likely had anything to do with this. Chances are the bullets came from the club although it cant be proven but they most likely came from the unsupervised General range where new members can take an AK or AR and blast away. The board members that voted against it were the likes of Shotgun and Casting divisions directors. We also have a blackpowder division, Hunting dogs and just at large directors. Keep in mind the most likely culprit is the General range and they agree to this fact. At the same time they do not want to accept any risk at all. I came away with the impression that if there was any chance at all that any round could get out of the range then it would never be reopened. They want Zero risk. I dont think this is possible. We were asked to show the board that our sports are safe but at the same time the president asked me if we ever pointed a gun above the berm. I said yes but we have rules about AD's and things that lead to them like finger in the trigger guard. Just the fact the gun was pointed above the berm at anytime was enough to say we were not safe. So does anybody have a way to argue this? Are we all going to be facing this same threat to our sport? This doesnt only effect IPSC. There is an IDPA, SASS, Bulleye, High power clubs at stake, maybe even more. I have thought about trying to show mathematically the probabilities of an incident and showing two different levels of risk. One level where there is a range defect and we keep operating or one level where there is an accident or failure to comply with set rules and procedures, a level in which we have insurance for. We tried a form of that last night and it fell on deaf ears. I am afraid we are done. Somebody please give another approach that may open their eyes. This is fast becoming an internal fight with division against division. Each arguing why they should be open and the other is at fault. The Cowboy MD got up and talked about how they shoot from stationary positions and dont run around with guns. There is even fighting in the divisions. one of the other pistol sports MD had side meetings with board members showing them how unsafe our range was and how unsafe we were running around with guns. He used you tube videos to show what we did. The future of this club doesn't look very good. And the first range to reopen will be the GP range which most likely caused all the problems. They are installing shooting tubes and range officers at this range. The only way I ever see IPSC opening back up is to build an impenetrable dome over the pits. On a bright spot they did allow the RO class to continue this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Jeff LaFave's club has extensive experience with this issue. They had to build baffles over the shooting area's and are not allowed to fire a gun under "blue sky". What they have actually works very well though and they are certainly to be commended for their approach to the issue. While expensive, this might be the only option you have. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 (edited) If they don't want to listen then there is nothing you can do other than trying to take over the board. It's to bad that one shooting discipline is pitted against another... once we are divided it's easier to conquer. If you can reach out to the membership and get most of the members to back you... you might have some leverage. say you get get 1/2 of the membership to agree not to rejoin if they don't reconsider. I don't really see any good answers for you. I wish you guys luck.... Edited February 21, 2008 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 What Gary stated. Try and offer alternatives to the "problem". Best of luck you you Chuck. I really do hate to see good clubs get the axe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted February 21, 2008 Author Share Posted February 21, 2008 The pistol club just spent 33,000 on range improvements to comply with an NRA report while the range where the problem came from did nothing. The GP range will reopen, we will be closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Conley Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Man what a bummer.... Really going to miss the matches that you all put on. Chris C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipscbob Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Welcome to the fight, Chuck. We have had similiar issues at more than one local club here. In one instance our ability to use steel was serious hampered by a round leaving the range and we still have not been able to successfully fight that one even though the round was proven to have come from another range/group. Very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baa Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Our home range in Pinellas Park FL has major restrictions and with good reason, we right in the middoe of one of the most densely populated areas in Florida. The bays used by the action pistol type groups (IPSC, SASS, and IDPA) have overhead wooden baffles to stop a round leaving the range. The downside is the bays are fairly small due to the restrictions. We also had a similar issue with our club Board of Directors. We banded the action shooters together and managed to elect a couple IPSC and IDPA guys on the board and a SASS guy as our club president. The result will be a new bay built to better accomidate our needs, as well as clearance to begin hooting a steel match. Sometimes we can make a difference by voting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 I know this won't help, but c'mon - it's a 223 round that was lodged in the house that they're concerned about. I don't know any USPSA pistol matches in which people are shooting 223 pistols. It makes no sense. I'm sorry to hear of this Chuck. ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 If they don't want to listen then there is nothing you can do other than trying to take over the board. It's to bad that one shooting discipline is pitted against another... once we are divided it's easier to conquer. If you can reach out to the membership and get most of the members to back you... you might have some leverage. say you get get 1/2 of the membership to agree not to rejoin if they don't reconsider. I don't really see any good answers for you. I wish you guys luck.... I agree with JT, the only viable solution is to restructure the gun ranges power base. Get people on the board that are friendly to your cause and diffuse the unfriendlies ability to arbitrarily disregard specific shooting disciplines. A secondary action would be to get more cross-over shooters inbetween the various diciplines. It's easy to point the finger at a stranger, but real hard to sell out a friend. It will help stop the pitting against each other. Short term, it might be too late for this, but long term, you might be able to get the range to allow USPSA after taking some sembalance of control back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul B Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Chuck, having shot at this range and gone through this with another club, a viable and slightly less expensive alternative might be to re-position the pits so the shooting is away from the area that is a problem. Some dirt movement could put most all pits facing in one direction. Or have matches with only pits used on one side of the valley (the safe side) for now. We had to do that and the board bought it. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidball Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 I came away with the impression that if there was any chance at all that any round could get out of the range then it would never be reopened. They want Zero risk. I dont think this is possible. We were asked to show the board that our sports are safe but at the same time the president asked me if we ever pointed a gun above the berm. I said yes but we have rules about AD's and things that lead to them like finger in the trigger guard. Just the fact the gun was pointed above the berm at anytime was enough to say we were not safe. Thinking out loud . . . Perhaps the proper approach is divert the converstation from what COULD happen to what DOES happen by emphasizing the safety record of our sport. Anything COULD happen. But what actually DOES happen? When the opponent uses YouTube videos, point out how the gun is always pointed downrange and the finger is not on the trigger (well, at least we hope that is what is depicted in the video). Identify that movement does not equal poor gun handling. AD's result from poor safety skills whether the shooter is moving or not. USPSA shooters are generally a lot safer (at least that is my experience by observation) because they handle firearms often and there is a severe penalty (DQ) for not doing it right. If we deal in what COULD happen nobody would have a swimming pool or drive an automobile. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted February 21, 2008 Author Share Posted February 21, 2008 Chuck, having shot at this range and gone through this with another club, a viable and slightly less expensive alternative might be to re-position the pits so the shooting is away from the area that is a problem. Some dirt movement could put most all pits facing in one direction. Or have matches with only pits used on one side of the valley (the safe side) for now. We had to do that and the board bought it.Hope this helps. We tried to give them no shooting in that direction. Our ranges dont shoot that direction anyway. One guy then brought up a aerial map picture and showed all the houses in those directions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Best thing to do is try to find some land and build your own range. I am in the process of this right now. You can find an area that backs up to state owned land that will never be developed and eliminate many problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Building your own range only works for a while. I have never seen a club where more than 100 folks show up to elect the BOD whether it be a club of 500 or 5000. Keeping your people on the BOD works but just like our right to bear arms, it must be exercised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo23 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Chuck, having shot at this range and gone through this with another club, a viable and slightly less expensive alternative might be to re-position the pits so the shooting is away from the area that is a problem. Some dirt movement could put most all pits facing in one direction. Or have matches with only pits used on one side of the valley (the safe side) for now. We had to do that and the board bought it.Hope this helps. We tried to give them no shooting in that direction. Our ranges dont shoot that direction anyway. One guy then brought up a aerial map picture and showed all the houses in those directions. Sorry to hear this Chuck.... I wish that I had a better idea for you all. But I cannot think of one for you. Best of luck.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbmd Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 (edited) You can contact the NRA. They can come in and do a range safety assesment and help with any related issues and possibly certify the range. This will help insurance companies as well as put the NRA in your court in the unfortunate event of an accident. The NRA has really good lawyers..... I can speak for the baffles that Gary spoke about...they are a pain, however the club is still shooting and yes the NRA certified the range. The guy from the NRA was actually there when I was setting up for the Targeting Ed match. I am going to work for the NRA in several weeks. Chuck let me know if I can be of any help to you. Larry Edited February 22, 2008 by sbmd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 (edited) You can contact the NRA. They can come in and do a range safety assesment and help with any related issues and possibly certify the range. This will help insurance companies as well as put the NRA in your court in the unfortunate event of an accident. The NRA has really good lawyers.....I can speak for the baffles that Gary spoke about...they are a pain, however the club is still shooting and yes the NRA certified the range. The guy from the NRA was actually there when I was setting up for the Targeting Ed match. I am going to work for the NRA in several weeks. Chuck let me know if I can be of any help to you. Larry Larry's right Chuck. You need to get the NRA in the fight. They will send out a "Range Specialist" just like the one who came during setup for Targeting Ed (it was our 5 year review...it costs us a paltry $250). They can then (authoritatively) address your BoD directly and shut down a lot of the melodramatic "opinions" by stating facts. They have the credentials to speak...BoD members have a very hard time arguing when they are speaking to someone who has superior knowledge on the subject. NRA also produces a CD version of their "Range Sourcebook" and "Range Baffle Systems". These can tell you, blow-by-blow how to implement the systems that will "officially" curb the problem. Overhead baffles are a pain, but if they keep you shooing, they are worth it. We did all 7 of our bays, and they ranged from $1600 (for a wood only 16' x 16' system) to $7000 (for a steel frame / wood baffle system that is 32' x 32'). Total cost for all 7 bays was around $30,000, and we did all the labor ourselves erecting them. Most clubs throw up two smaller systems ($1600 ea) to get shooting right away, and then "flip" the stages to get a 4 or 6 stage match (you can sometimes put two speed shoots under one 16' x 16' system). As they make money, the club puts baffles on the remaining ranges (especially the bigger and more expensive ones). You also need to get an NRA CRSO (Cheif Range Safety Officer) to write an SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) for the range(s). Gary Johnson and I went and got those credentials so we could write it ourselves for our club. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do. Anyway, if I were you, I would get on the agenda of the next meeting, and state the following: "Ladies and Gentlemen, these unfortunate incidents need to be addressed. None of us in this room have the official credentials or precise knowledge to determine if ANY discipline is unsafe or unfit for our facilities. Therefore, I recommend that we call someone who can tell us what we need to do to fix the problem, and if it is within our means to do so. There is only one recognized entity that deals with such things and can make these recommendations, and that is the NRA and their Range Safety Program. So rather than trying to "armchair quarterback" this thing, lets get the experts in here to help us get our club back on track. It is in ALL OF OUR INTERESTS to see this happen regardless of what discipline we shoot, as they all contibute to the clubs financial well-being. After we have conducted a range report, done by an NRA Range Specialist, we can then ascertain what type of investment it will take to keep any or all of the various disciplines shooting, TO INCLUDE OUR GP RANGE, which may even have been the SOURCE of the problem." It is pretty hard to argue with a statement like that, as it calls for the club to take the necessary action to get the answers it truly needs to make an educated decision. I would add that you need to BE THERE when the Range Specialist does his walk to answer questions about ALL the disciplines, how they shoot, the rulesets that are used, and how this impacts the ranges use(s). This will help insure an accurate report to the BoD. Remember, many people do not "understand" what we do, and that we have "layered protection" built into our safety rules. If I can be of further help, please don't hesitate to call. Jeff LaFave PS You can see our baffle systems by going to: mi3gun.com . Note that they have since changed the angle of the baffle boards from being straight up and down, to being angled rearward 30 degrees to even keep a straight up shot from escaping (we are grandfathered at my home club). Go to nra.org to get the necesssary forms to get a range survey application and any of the resources I have mentioned here. Now you can get the firepower you need to counter and educate them (officially). Edited February 22, 2008 by Barrettone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blockhead Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 You might want to be careful with the NRA. A club in western AZ had similar issues and called in the NRA for help. The individual that the NRA sent out was not positively disposed to practical shooting. His report almost put a stop to practical shooting sports at that range. There are many within the leadership of the NRA that are not comfortable with the idea of a COF that involves freestyle movement (especially by civilian shooters). Then again many are. It depends on who you get. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 You might want to be careful with the NRA. A club in western AZ had similar issues and called in the NRA for help. The individual that the NRA sent out was not positively disposed to practical shooting. His report almost put a stop to practical shooting sports at that range. There are many within the leadership of the NRA that are not comfortable with the idea of a COF that involves freestyle movement (especially by civilian shooters). Then again many are. It depends on who you get.Good Luck Good point, Blockhead, and for this reason, I have edited my post to add: I would add that you need to BE THERE when the Range Specialist does his walk to answer questions about ALL the disciplines, how they shoot, the rulesets that are used, and how this impacts the ranges use(s). This will help insure an accurate report to the BoD. Remember, many people do not "understand" what we do, and that we have "layered protection" built into our safety rules. I should have made this clear, as we ALWAYS walk the NRA Specialist and make these explanations so they understand us. I also include a copy of our rule book for him to review when doing his report, so he knows the precautions we take and can incorporate those things in that report. Thanks, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 It sounds like you have a tough road ahead Chuck. Good Luck. The NRA sounds like a good way to get all involved to agree to finding a solution to the problem that will result in everyone being able to continue to enjoy the sports we all love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 One other problem area at this particular club is they have many "divisions" that have nothing to do with shooting. I believe each "division" has a BOD representative. Shooting is only a very small part of the club and the non-shooting BOD members will always outnumber the shooting BOD members. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 A bit of history, Jeff, the first NRA rep who came out was one of those "what's practical shooting?" guys. (But then, it was 1990, for chrissakes.) It took a bunch of hand-holding, talking back and forth, and a second visit by a different rep, to get things going in the direction we wanted. One more note: the NRA rep who gave us the nod on the baffle design told us "You'll be replacing the front few boards every other year." He obviously hung around with a really bad bunch of shots, because we finally, almost ten years later, changed the front boards because we got tired of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joecichlid Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Chuck, you said: neighbor claiming 3 .223 bullets lodged into his house/buildings and that the ranges in question don't even face the area where the bullets were clamed to be found. As stated by others, it was a rifle bullet, not a pistol bullet. Sounds to me like the assorted board involved need to grow up and stop bickering back and forth, they are in some sort of power strugle or something. The only way to get the IPSC bays opened again is to keep bringing it before the board with the best information you can and vote for people in support of the USPSA/IPSC shooting for the next election. I wish you all the best of luck and hope you get those ranges opened again, it would kill me to have to deal with that sort of mess. Joe W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Charles I am not talking about building a new range open to the public with a BOD etc. I am talking about building a range for myself. The last thing I want to do is deal with the public when they have guns in thier hands. I have no problem with holding USPSA or ICORE matches on "my" range as long as they have liability insurance etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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