Gun and mags on the table...

[spook]

I have a match coming up with a 20 round stage. IPSC Production division with a Glock 17.

The stage requires the shooter to place the gun and all mags he wishes to use during the stage, on a table. So I have to load the gun and get an extra mag on my belt (I have 17 rounds in the mag and the stage is 20 rounds minimum).

How would you start?

Load the gun grab the mag and stick it in the pouch? The other way around?

Let's hear it. Any other cool/weird solutions are more than welcome

[AlamoShooter]

We had a starts like that and some times if you look close you may have a chance to shoot part of the targets and run /step back buy the table to pick up the next mag for the reload.

I have never seen it don quick when you have to make a standing "load the Belt" start. The sooner you get to the shooting the better for every stage I have seen.

Pick up the gun -load-shoot some targets and pick up the spare on the way out.

But ...I don't know nothing.

The limited 10 guys take a beating on a 32 round stage = we end up with stages that always have some steel that begs to be missed.

I practiced a bit with a two mag pick-up with the week hand= moving away form the table = one goes into the belt second one in the gun. = I gave up on that trick maybe too soon, but that is beyond my dexterity level.

Edited February 20, 2008 by AlamoShooter

[Middle Man]

Depending on the relation of the targets to the table/start position. I would have to go with Alamo's method if there were open targets from the start.

Pick up Glock

Load Glock

Shoot available targets

reload from the table

move on...

[Steve J]

We had a starts like that and some times if you look close you may have a chance to shoot part of the targets and run /step back buy the table to pick up the next mag for the reload.

I have never seen it don quick when you have to make a standing "load the Belt" start. The sooner you get to the shooting the better for every stage I have seen.

Pick up the gun -load-shoot some targets and pick up the spare on the way out.

But ...I don't know nothing.

+1 if the stage design allows, load from the table as much as possible. We get these all the time at Infinity Impact IPSC. If you have to stow ALL your mags and go, these stages seriously suck for all but open and limited.

[AlamoShooter]

We had a starts like that and some times if you look close you may have a chance to shoot part of the targets and run /step back buy the table to pick up the next mag for the reload.

I have never seen it don quick when you have to make a standing "load the Belt" start. The sooner you get to the shooting the better for every stage I have seen.

Pick up the gun -load-shoot some targets and pick up the spare on the way out.

But ...I don't know nothing.

+1 if the stage design allows, load from the table as much as possible. We get these all the time at Infinity Impact IPSC. If you have to stow ALL your mags and go, these stages seriously suck for all but open and limited.

NO they just suck, but Im glad that Scott forces us into learning, It more comon to have a stage like that at the match than --Not-- have a stage like that at the match.

[AlamoShooter]

Depending on the relation of the targets to the table/start position. I would have to go with Alamo's method if there were open targets from the start.

Pick up Glock

Load Glock

Shoot available targets

reload from the table

move on...

its faster even if you have to move two steps out of your way to get back to the table, = you put the extra mag to other side of the table = the side that you will be running past.

And put four mags on the table -or- twice what you will need.

[Skywalker]

Bjorn,

if the stage design allows for a second pass near the table, maybe after having shot 2 or 3 targets, then you can reload there.

If the stage design is with table at very beginning of the CoF, and there's nothing you can shoot before leaving position, here's what I'd do.

I'd place two mags next to each other, spaced 1" or so.

Upon start signal I'd pick'em up both, first between thumb and index finger, second between index and middle finger; then while raising them, I can stuff the first (the one between thumb and index finger) in the first mag pouch of my belt, while the second one will go into the gun after being done with placing the first.

It's not that difficult, if you practice this a bit, and it will take you about 0.5 to 0.75s longer than normal loading time.

[Julien Boit]

Spook, tell us more about the targets.

Are they in front of the table ? Do you need to move to engage them after retrieving the pistol/mags ?

My .2cts :

If the targets are placed in front or in very close proximity of the table:

- Grab the pistol and load.

- engage targets.

- reload from the table.

If the target is elsewhere but you have to pass next to the table again :

- Grab the pistol / mag.

- load the pistol while moving to the target array.

- Pick the mag on the table and reload while you pass by.

If the table is only a start position :

- Grab the pistol and put the mag inside.

- Grab another mag and put it in your pouch.

- Rack the slide while moving.

The third solution is what I choosed to do at the Jungle in Cheval Blanc at the EHC2007.

Put one mag in the pistol, grab another one and stuff in my pouch, then racked the slide while mounting on the bridge.

Edited February 21, 2008 by Julien Boit

[Stefano]

...........

If the table is only a start position :

- Grab the pistol and put the mag inside.

- Grab another mag and put it in your pouch.

- Rack the slide while moving.

The third solution is what I choosed to do at the Jungle in Cheval Blanc at the EHC2007.

Put one mag in the pistol, grab another one and stuff in my pouch, then racked the slide while mounting on the bridge.

100% agree !

This last solution is fast (and safe) and also IMHO is the better !

[Johann the Horrible]

Once had a problem with a mag while on the other side of the range and had to run all the way back to the table to get another mag. It takes the same amount of time to pick up one mag or two.

Grab two mags as Luca describes and put them in the pouches. Load gun and shoot the stage. You might not have the fastest time but you will have a plan B for when life happens to plan A. I never ended a stage where I felt that I had to much ammo.

Plan for the worst and then get pleasantly surprised.

[spook]

Thanks for the replies so far guys.

I will load from the table if possible. That seems like a big advantage and is something I hadn't really thought of.

The stage descriptions over here are very archaic. So I'd like to discuss the options if I can't reload from the table.

This is the info I have, plus a start position in Dutch:

If the table is only a start position :

- Grab the pistol and put the mag inside.

- Grab another mag and put it in your pouch.

- Rack the slide while moving.

The third solution is what I choosed to do at the Jungle in Cheval Blanc at the EHC2007.

Put one mag in the pistol, grab another one and stuff in my pouch, then racked the slide while mounting on the bridge.

100% agree !

This last solution is fast (and safe) and also IMHO is the better !

Julien/Stefano,

Do you really think stuffing the mag into the gun, then putting the mag in the pouch and racking the slide is faster?

I thought that would be the slowest option, because you have to:

Grab a magazine and go to the gun, go back to the table, go to the belt, go back to the gun, shoot.

I would think that grabbing a magazine, stuffing it on the belt and grabbing the second one (that goes in the gun) will get you moving earlier.

Luca's option, grabbing both mags and stuffing the first one on the belt seems even faster. But it will also depend on the distance to the table, methinks? If the table is close to the first shooting position there's no need to get moving fast...

[Skywalker]

Bjorn,

I take it that the red area is the shooting area you have to shoot from within, isn't it?

In this case, the table is outside and behind you, unless you start facing upwards.

If all the above is true (irregardless of where you face as starting position), I'd say that you have plenty of time for shooting 6/7 targets from inside the room (starting from right side port), open the door with your left hand, grab a mag from the table, and reload while stepping outside to engage remaining targets.

The method I explained in my previous post is really fast, bur requires a bit of training in precisely picking up the mags and locating your mag pouch.

Edited February 21, 2008 by Skywalker

[spook]

Bjorn,

I take it that the red area is the shooting area you have to shoot from within, isn't it?

In this case, the table is outside and behind you, unless you start facing upwards.

If all the above is true (irregardless of where you face as starting position), I'd say that you have plenty of time for shooting 6/7 targets from inside the room, open the door with your left hand, grab a mag from the table, and reload while stepping outside to engage remaining targets.

The method I explained is really fast, bur requires a bit of training in precisely picking up the mags and locating your mag pouch.

Yup, the red area is probably the shooting area. I thought I'd start on the right and reload from the table as I move to the door. It kind of sucks that there's a door, because I'll either have to open it, go reload, and go in. Or, reload, open it and go in. I hope I can engage enough targets from the first shooting position (way to the right) to do the reload immediately after that.

In the mean time, a buddy of mine is working on a cool magnet pouch (kind of like the one Saul sells, but cooler ). That might help, although I will hate myself for looking at equipment solutions to compensate my lack of skill

I'm going to do the "put the mag in the pouch" drill in Dryfire for sure! Can't hurt to be good at that, even if it will only shave a couple of tenths of my "unload and show clear" time

Edited February 21, 2008 by spook

[Skywalker]

It kind of sucks that there's a door, because I'll either have to open it, go reload, and go in. Or, reload, open it and go in.

This feels a bit weird ... me trying to give advice to a EU champion and 3rd overall at WS XIV ... ... but ...

if the table is close enough to the door, you could overswing your left hand upon opening the door (which appears to be hinged on left side), grab the mag you strategically placed on the left forward edge of the table, and reload while crossing the door.

Edited February 21, 2008 by Skywalker

[spook]

It kind of sucks that there's a door, because I'll either have to open it, go reload, and go in. Or, reload, open it and go in.

This feels a bit weird ... me trying to give advice to a EU champion and 3rd overall at WS XIV ... ... but ...

if the table is close enough to the door, you could overswing your left hand upon opening the door (which appears to be hinged on left side), grab the mag you strategically placed on the left forward edge of the table, and reload while crossing the door.

If I could do it all over again, I wouldn't have gone to the EC or the WS. Somehow, thinking I could shoot because I won a medal, initiated a huge period of stagnation in my shooting skills. And you haven't seen me shoot live, remember. I suck, trust me! Especially when it comes to shooting autoloaders and figuring out ways to shoot stages. Well, so much for strengthening my mental game for today

Your suggestion sounds great. If the door is close to the table, I could also grab my mag, open the door end continue to reload, depending on the position of the targets I have to engage, once I go through.

[Stefano]

Julien/Stefano,

Do you really think stuffing the mag into the gun, then putting the mag in the pouch and racking the slide is faster?

I thought that would be the slowest option, because you have to:

Grab a magazine and go to the gun, go back to the table, go to the belt, go back to the gun, shoot.

I would think that grabbing a magazine, stuffing it on the belt and grabbing the second one (that goes in the gun) will get you moving earlier.

Luca's option, grabbing both mags and stuffing the first one on the belt seems even faster. But it will also depend on the distance to the table, methinks? If the table is close to the first shooting position there's no need to get moving fast...

Well... all depends to YOUR skill/ability:

Luca's solution is good but ... are you able to work on it consistently ?

If something goes wrong with your double-grip on the two mags ??

Isn't possible to say "what's the best": only you can find "what's the best FOR YOU" and the only key is to find the answer in training: you try all the solutions, and then you'll find what works better FOR YOU !

[Julien Boit]

The drawing open my eyes

Luca's solution of placing the reload magazine strategically on the left side of the table sounds pretty good.

But place it in the right direction, pad directed at the target.

Assuming that the shooting area is relatively small, this strategy seems like the way to go.

Now, try to evaluate what you can do faster :

Reload, open the door, engage remaining targets, or open the door, reload, engage targets.

In such case, Luca's idea of grabbing two mags at the start sounds good. You still can place more mags on the table if things go south.

Edited February 21, 2008 by Julien Boit

[Resjudicata]

My suggestion is to grab two mags with weak hand and gun with strong hand then move while stuffing mag in gun, other mag in teeth and racking slide. This will be faster than any of the options so far IMHO.

I probably wouldn't do this with my metal STI mags but with Glock mags it should work fine.

Chris

[Flexmoney]

Stuff that goes through my mind...

We have a local match that ran a door on a big field course at about every match. Shooting 10 rounds, I would often be forced to reload at the same time that I would be opening the door. While I've recognized that challenge and addressed it...and even when I can nail a reload (from the belt) in a flash...I avoid reloading while going to open a door if at all possible.

Not only are you doing two tasks instead of one...the time lag can make a shooter anxious. There is stuff going on when the body feels like it ought to be shooting. There will be some of that lag from the start anyway (loading the gun). So, that feeling needs to be managed.

There are some 180 traps in the stage to be mindful of.

With all the stuff going on, the hit factor will be a bit lower...making Alphas especially valuable, even though the targets seem close enough to really open up on.

All of that info tells me that (for me) shooting smooth is the way to go.

I couldn't speak to the mags on the table without seeing it in person. Without a few steps before the first shooting, I'd just want to load and shoot...not stow as well.

[ChuckS]

Just a related thougth that I had on something I learned at the 07 WSSSC in Mesa: You may want to bevel the inside tops of your mag pouches to help you do "speed loads".

Later,

Chuck

[John Tuley]

Guys ... I hate to break it to you, but you're doing it wrong.

This is how to do a table start.

The safety lever is what's creating the pivot point; gravity does the rest. It lays flat on the right side (for now, until I have an ambi lever installed). For anyone who's wondering, that's my USP Tactical (.45) that I shoot in L10.

When I set the pistol on the table and it sat like that at a match, the RO poked at it to see if it would lay flat. I offered to hold it down by putting a loaded magazine in there. He laughed, declined and shrugged, so I assumed the start position.

Okay, now that I've added my -2 cents, I'm going to go back to reading what y'all do for real.

-- John.

[Middle Man]

Not only are you doing two tasks instead of one...the time lag can make a shooter anxious. There is stuff going on when the body feels like it ought to be shooting. There will be some of that lag from the start anyway (loading the gun). So, that feeling needs to be managed.

Good call Flex. I hate that anxious feeling, your brain is screaming to "Get on with it, already!" and it really does seem to multiply when you have to reload standing in front of a door. And in this particular stage add the action of picking up a magazine off the table somewhere in the process. A complicated challenge indeed.

Thanks for posing your question Bjorn, it was fun to really ponder all the possibilities for five minutes. Some of my solutions were a real gamble...

What about starting from the left side of the table? Load, open the door and run the stage left to right picking up mag #2 in the transition between the ports.