Revelation time!

[spook]

I finally went to the range yesterday evening. I had taken the grip tape off my Glock a couple of nights before.

During dryfire, everything seemed fine.

We started out with a stage with 10-12y targets. Things started out well. It was cold on the range. No sweaty hands and I could hold on to the Glock well enough to get good hits.

Then came the second stage. 4 targets at 25yds. First run and I could paste 4 hits instead of 8. Every target had a nice center hit and a miss. On the second run, I paid more attention to the sights and saw what happened. The gun would recoil up and because I tried to keep it down by putting pressure on the left side panel of the gun with my weak hand I somehow managed to pull the gun to the left as it was coming down. It was not a trigger issue, I could see the gun go up and come down to the left even before I started putting pressure on the trigger.

Time for the third stage. 4 targets, all of which have A-zones with penalties on either side. Distances about 10-12y. It's getting old. First shot good, second shot to the left into the edge of the penalty. I'm starting to get pissed and blame the slick grip. There's just no way to hold on to this bar of soap thing.

So I put some ProGrip on my hands, but the problem stays.

I ask my shooting buddy:

"How hard do you squeeze your grip with you support hand?"

"I dunno, not very hard"

"Grab my hand and hold it like you hold your gun"

He grabs my hand and just holds it. Not harder that you would shake a person's hand.

"Holy shit, that's all?!"

"Yup"

OK, time for an experiment. Same targets, 10yds. Penalties on both sides of the A-zone. I hold the gun like I normally would and see the second shot go into the penalties (well, I see the sights return to the left).

I try to hold onto it, and the harder I try to hold on the harder the gun will go to the left and work its way out of my hands. I keep trying to control it, but it just doesn't work without the grip tape.

Then I decided to just let it go. I place the gun in my hands like a wuss and pull the trigger. The gun would move more, but somehow came back down a lot faster. It felt like I had absolutely no control of the gun. But what I saw was the opposite.

I noticed all I could do was just watch the sights and I witnessed how my body just figured out the rest. I was hardly holding the gun at all.

I could actually be comfortable, just hold the gun, instead of squeezing, gripping, or whatever other uncomfortable terms, and adjust the way the gun went up and down just by looking at it!

It was a shame I only had about 40 rounds left. I would have gladly shot 1000 more. It seriously felt like I could just flush my 10 years of previous shooting/training down the toilet.

I hope to get some range time before my snowboarding trip at the end of this week. I just had to write this down to make sure I won't forget it.

Shooting without grip tape is not better, but it turned out to be a blessing in disguise. It has shown me so much already about the flaws in my grip. I am going to figure this out and see what happens if I put the tape back on the gun after that.

Now for a question to all those shooters who have aquired a neutral grip and use no effort to hold the gun during shooting:

The only thing I couldn't solve in the 40 rounds I had left was getting the gun to stop at the right height. I would see the sight perfectly on the first shot, but when it would come straight down it stopped when the top of the slide was still very visible. The bottom of the front sight was at the position where the top should be.

Edited to add a link to Rob Leatham's Q&A which I found interesting

Damn, it feels like everything has changed. The way I tracked my sights. It was like I could put all my attention into looking at the gun.

Edited February 19, 2008 by spook

[Skywalker]

Bjorn,

you're giving "Monday Night Special" a complete new meaning ...

[spook]

LOL!

Man, I'm so hyped about shooting right now I wish I could go to the range with 10000 bullets and just experiment away with this.

I grabbed Brian's book to see read up on some Old School (read: pre-grip-tape-era) philosophies on how to grip the gun.

I have read the Grip paragraphs again and checked the "equipment" section.

What got my attention is that Brian says he uses dulled 20lpi checkering instead of 30lpi because it is "easier on the hands" and "more comfortable" (less abbrasive?). Compared to grip tape, checkered wood is as slick as wet glass. It's like his whole philosophy on gripping the gun is in line with what I experienced at the range.

And if Brian can shoot accurate .11 splits with a gun without tape, well... let me just say that I'm going to wait and shoot some more before I put it back on the gun

I have always felt that the grip maybe the most important "skill" of pure shooting. I think there could be an entire sub-forum on the subject. But it is very hard to transfer through words how to grip the gun.

I hope this thread will result in some interesting input and I'd love to hear what Mr. Enos himself has to say about gripping the gun (that isnot already in Beyond Fundamentals).

Edited February 19, 2008 by spook

[Ramas]

You should try Burkett Timing Drill, I found it useful for all aspects:sights return, gripping gun, stance.

Here it is:

"One of the drills that I like to do most of the time and has had the most impact on my shooting ability is a timing drill. First we should have a discussion of terminology.

Timing of the gun:

I am not referring to the actual time the mechanism takes to return to battery. I am referring to learning the timing of the gun by the shooter. Since most guns return to battery in about 5 hundredths of a second, we cannot return the gun fast enough with our conscious mind. The subconscious will return the gun to point of aim by using the appropriate amount of muscle force during recoil. You will see top shooters push down on the gun if it does something it’s not supposed to do, such as hitting a bad primer and not firing. This is not a flinch. A flinch occurs before and also during the firing of the gun.

You must shoot a full magazine on every string in this drill and you must not stop and restart in the middle of a magazine. Unless there is a safety issue, shoot the entire magazine at the required splits. You must have a relaxed positive stance and grip on the gun for this to work.

The major areas this drill assists are the return of the gun under recoil, calling your shots, grip control, and solidifying the stance. If you are not using a solid forward shooting stance, you will see the gun start going out of control and the sights moving differently after about 3-5 rounds. Please refer to my previous articles for more stance information or check my website at www.mattburkett.com <http://www.mattburkett.com>

You will need three targets, tape, and about 250 rounds of ammo minimum.

The drill:

Start out with three targets 15 yards away. Load all of your magazines. First three strings are two seconds per shot. Like a metronome, have the splits be as close to two seconds as possible. Check your split times on a timer or have another shooter help you with the drill. Two seconds per shot gives you plenty of time to shoot an extremely small group.

First string, use as light of a grip as possible on first target.

Second string, medium grip on second target.

Third string, use a heavy grip on the third target.

Now unload and review your shooting.

You shouldn’t have more than about a 2” group on each target. Compare where they are impacting on the target. Is there more vertical stringing or horizontal on the different groups? Which one did you feel more comfortable with? How did the gun feel with each grip? What exactly did the sights do? Did they rise straight up under recoil? Could you even see the sights under recoil? This will show you if you have a flinch. If you can’t see the sights going up and down, there is a good chance you’re blinking.

Figure out what grip worked best for you and use that for the rest of the drill.

Tape the targets.

String four, two seconds per shot on target 1 with your new favorite grip.

String five, one second per shot on target 2.

String six, .5 seconds per shot on target 3.

Now unload and review your shooting.

Once again we go back and look to see where our problems are showing up. What is the group dispersion on the targets? Is there a significant difference between the groups at two seconds and at .5 seconds? How much vertical error is there with the groups? What did the sights do at the different speeds? Diagnose what is happening. If you’re getting a significantly upper right lift to the sights, grip a little more with your left hand and slightly less with your right hand (assuming you’re right handed).

Tape the targets.

String seven, one second per shot on target one.

String eight, .5 per shot on target two.

String nine, .25 per shot on target three.

Unload and review.

How did your shooting go at this speed? Are the sights coming back naturally to the aiming point?

Critical things to remember:

The timing of the gun that you have learned is specific to that firearm and load. If you change any part or your load, rerun the timing drills because the gun itself has changed."

[Jake Di Vita]

Try rolling your weak side elbow up (but this only works if you are already camming your weak wrist hard forward). It feels awkward at first but it did amazing things for my recoil control.

Good post bro. Cool.

[spook]

Ramas, thanks for the tip. One of the first things that came to mind were the Burkett timing drills. I know Flex is pretty fond of them. My plan was to try them next time I'm at the range. I'll bring 500 rounds and see what happens.

Try rolling your weak side elbow up (but this only works if you are already camming your weak wrist hard forward). It feels awkward at first but it did amazing things for my recoil control.

Good post bro. Cool.

Thanks Jake

I have seen you give this advice before in other threads.

When I roll my elbow up, I have more (read: stronger) contact of the weak hand high up on the grip (where the thumbs meet). But I have almost no weak hand contact with the grip at the magwell area. Is this correct?

[Ron Ankeny]

When I roll my elbow up, I have more (read: stronger) contact of the weak hand high up on the grip (where the thumbs meet). But I have almost no weak hand contact with the grip at the magwell area. Is this correct?

That's exactly what happens to me. The void between the support hand and the grip panel increases. Still, the advice about rolling the support elbow out or up works for a lot of shooters.

I use a light grip on the gun. About what a person would use to grip a hammer. The grip works for me with any handgun that has a grip panel that is a bit rounded at the back so I can get the fleshy part of my hand behind the gun. All it takes is a little bit of contact and I am good to go. The problem I have always had with a Glock is the panels are absolutely flat and they swim around in my support hand, tape or not. I solved the problem with a Hogue grip sleeve. Maybe not the ideal solution, but it works.

Edited February 19, 2008 by Ron Ankeny

[spook]

When I roll my elbow up, I have more (read: stronger) contact of the weak hand high up on the grip (where the thumbs meet). But I have almost no weak hand contact with the grip at the magwell area. Is this correct?

That's exactly what happens to me. The void between the support hand and the grip panel increases. Still, the advice about rolling the support elbow out or up works for a lot of shooters.

I use a light grip on the gun. About what a person would use to grip a hammer. The grip works for me with any handgun that has a grip panel that is a bit rounded at the back so I can get the fleshy part of my hand behind the gun. All it takes is a little bit of contact and I am good to go. The problem I have always had with a Glock is the panels are absolutely flat and they swim around in my support hand, tape or not. I solved the problem with a Hogue grip sleeve. Maybe not the ideal solution, but it works.

Ron, I was about to put a "paging Ron Ankeny" post in this thread. You're the first shooter that came to mind when I was cranking away yesterday, just watching the sights and effortlessly holding the gun (the Bill Drill clip comes to mind).

I have similar experiences with gettin the "meaty part" of my hand behind the back strap. I am still in doubt if that also involves the part down by the magwell, or just the higher part from half way up to the tang.

Edited February 19, 2008 by spook

[Ron Ankeny]

Years ago, during a class with Ron Avery, I was whining about the Glock pointing high and swimming around in my hands. Avery suggested the elbow thing, which works well for bringing the muzzle down, instead of excessive camming of the wrists. He also suggested a little side to side pressure on the grip, kind of like using your arms and hands like a "nutcracker". The side to side thing works exceptionally well if I rotate my elbows in but not up. I think everyone is a little different. At the time I was shooting a fat gun in Limited so I didn't devote myself to really exploring the various alternatives in depth.

I have a G17 coming from Glock under their cop/fire/ems program for GSSF, so in a couple of weeks I'll be in the same boat with you. I am not sure if the right approach is to just shoot the thing and let my body subconsiously iron things out, or if I should consiously go down the road of tweaking my technique. The problem is, every time I over analyze something I get frustrated. Frustration then breeds confusion, then I get pissed off. Not exactly the best approach to improvement is it?

Edited February 19, 2008 by Ron Ankeny

[spook]

LOL, just don't get frustrated. You're a very good shooter and you'll fihure this out.

Have you tried Eric's Trugrip? It is really cool stuff and somehow, because it gives an all around grip, it makes the grip feel thicker.

After I'm done experimenting with my nekkid Glock, I'll slap another piece of Trugip on it.

Funny thing about the camming and the elbows. I have found the exact same thing. I can get a much better weak hand grip if I turn my elbows doen and in, but it makes me look like Angus

It also makes the gun move up and down more, because my elbows will pivot more.

[benos]

Then I decided to just let it go. I place the gun in my hands like a wuss and pull the trigger. The gun would move more, but somehow came back down a lot faster. It felt like I had absolutely no control of the gun. But what I saw was the opposite.

I noticed all I could do was just watch the sights and I witnessed how my body just figured out the rest. I was hardly holding the gun at all.

I could actually be comfortable, just hold the gun, instead of squeezing, gripping, or whatever other uncomfortable terms, and adjust the way the gun went up and down just by looking at it!

Damn, it feels like everything has changed. The way I tracked my sights. It was like I could put all my attention into looking at the gun.

I always love reading that kind of stuff! See how happy I am:

nice work.

be

[Chie]

I finally went to the range yesterday evening. I had taken the grip tape off my Glock a couple of nights before.

During dryfire, everything seemed fine.

We started out with a stage with 10-12y targets. Things started out well. It was cold on the range. No sweaty hands and I could hold on to the Glock well enough to get good hits.

Then came the second stage. 4 targets at 25yds. First run and I could paste 4 hits instead of 8. Every target had a nice center hit and a miss. On the second run, I paid more attention to the sights and saw what happened. The gun would recoil up and because I tried to keep it down by putting pressure on the left side panel of the gun with my weak hand I somehow managed to pull the gun to the left as it was coming down. It was not a trigger issue, I could see the gun go up and come down to the left even before I started putting pressure on the trigger.

Time for the third stage. 4 targets, all of which have A-zones with penalties on either side. Distances about 10-12y. It's getting old. First shot good, second shot to the left into the edge of the penalty. I'm starting to get pissed and blame the slick grip. There's just no way to hold on to this bar of soap thing.

So I put some ProGrip on my hands, but the problem stays.

I ask my shooting buddy:

"How hard do you squeeze your grip with you support hand?"

"I dunno, not very hard"

"Grab my hand and hold it like you hold your gun"

He grabs my hand and just holds it. Not harder that you would shake a person's hand.

"Holy shit, that's all?!"

"Yup"

OK, time for an experiment. Same targets, 10yds. Penalties on both sides of the A-zone. I hold the gun like I normally would and see the second shot go into the penalties (well, I see the sights return to the left).

I try to hold onto it, and the harder I try to hold on the harder the gun will go to the left and work its way out of my hands. I keep trying to control it, but it just doesn't work without the grip tape.

Then I decided to just let it go. I place the gun in my hands like a wuss and pull the trigger. The gun would move more, but somehow came back down a lot faster. It felt like I had absolutely no control of the gun. But what I saw was the opposite.

I noticed all I could do was just watch the sights and I witnessed how my body just figured out the rest. I was hardly holding the gun at all.

I could actually be comfortable, just hold the gun, instead of squeezing, gripping, or whatever other uncomfortable terms, and adjust the way the gun went up and down just by looking at it!

It was a shame I only had about 40 rounds left. I would have gladly shot 1000 more. It seriously felt like I could just flush my 10 years of previous shooting/training down the toilet.

I hope to get some range time before my snowboarding trip at the end of this week. I just had to write this down to make sure I won't forget it.

Shooting without grip tape is not better, but it turned out to be a blessing in disguise. It has shown me so much already about the flaws in my grip. I am going to figure this out and see what happens if I put the tape back on the gun after that.

Now for a question to all those shooters who have aquired a neutral grip and use no effort to hold the gun during shooting:

The only thing I couldn't solve in the 40 rounds I had left was getting the gun to stop at the right height. I would see the sight perfectly on the first shot, but when it would come straight down it stopped when the top of the slide was still very visible. The bottom of the front sight was at the position where the top should be.

Edited to add a link to Rob Leatham's Q&A which I found interesting

Damn, it feels like everything has changed. The way I tracked my sights. It was like I could put all my attention into looking at the gun.

Dude,

How many rounds do you usually pop in order to have your new revelation installed in your muscle memory?

As I am having a hard time trying to apply recently learned technic as soon as I hear the buzzer! Therefore going back to the the old style, which is crappy by the way

Before I hear the LARM and STAND BY, I tell my self that I will just relax and try to apply learned technic. But the result is always the opposite

[pjb45]

Chie,

Perhaps you are using a concious effort to control what should be an unconcious activity and that is causing the problem. Try relaxing more and allow the technique you have ingrained into you subconcious mind to start executing.

I offer this after talking with nunerous GMs about their shooting. Invariable it comes down to letting the what they have programed into their subconcious mind to take over. See Mike Seeklander's new website for some additional info.

Regards

[Slabbie Shooter]

I have an indoor match tomorrow night. I will experiment with this. Relax, just hold the gun and shoot.

[Chie]

Chie,

Perhaps you are using a concious effort to control what should be an unconcious activity and that is causing the problem. Try relaxing more and allow the technique you have ingrained into you subconcious mind to start executing.

I offer this after talking with nunerous GMs about their shooting. Invariable it comes down to letting the what they have programed into their subconcious mind to take over. See Mike Seeklander's new website for some additional info.

Regards

Thanks pjb45,

I will try your advice.

Yeah, I think that's the problem. But I am really problematic with the solution .

When I watch the top dawgs perform I am just so amazed how they shoot so relaxed.

I think that I can control my anxiety on practice runs. But come game day, I think I will have a problem controlling my anxiety. Anyone knows the remedy to this ailment

Cheers

[Sam]

This is a great thread!

All of the skills that we must maintain to shoot effectively remind me of the stuff that I carry in my pants everday. Pocket knife, flashlight, car keys...... Once in a while I have to empty them all out and inspect the contents. Maybe I sharpen the knife or change the batteries in the light. But when I reach for one of the tools, I just use it.

[BR]

I found this post while searching on another topic, but it is a subject I wanted to raise on this forum -- the use of grip tape.

At nationals, both of the top two production shooters -- also the top two glock shooters -- did not use grip tape. From what I was able to see, Sevigny's grip looked to be completely stock-naked, and Vogel's looked like it had just a small piece of tape on bottom of the backstrap, but nothing on the sides or front of the grip. I do not know whether either used pro grip.

I have been told that grip friction is important in controlling the gun, and I use full grip tape and grip pretty hard with my weak hand. However, after seeing Sevigny and Vogel, reading Spook's posts, and re-reading the section in BEnos' book, I think I may give the naked gun a try again.

What other experiences or thoughts do you have regarding the benefits and/or disadvantages of using grip tape compared to a non-taped grip, glock or otherwise? Thanks.

-br

Edited September 17, 2008 by joker22

[38supPat]

I've been shooting my IMM Open gun for quite a few years now with just the stock SVI grip:

The gun returns just fine, if I need a bit of extra grip on a hot sweaty day, a little Pro-Grip goes a long way.

With grip tape, it can be a bit harder to shift your grip if you get a bad one on the draw. Other than that I don't really see and big disadvantages to using it, I just don't cover the grip in the stuff. On my old open gun I tried using just the side panels with grip tape and on one of my single stacks I use it on the front strap only. Basically I'll put it where I think I need a bit more grip, but thats it.

[badchad]

I have grip tape, TruGrip, on both of my competition Glocks. I like the way it feels but I installed it when I first started shooting because that seemed like what everyone else was doing, so maybe I would shoot just as well without it. One downside I can think of is that the tape does wear out, and the grippiness lessens over time. I do a lot of dryfire, and shoot in a hot environment and therefore sweat a lot so that probably makes my grips wear faster than most. If I had my druthers I’d probably replace the grips every 3 months or so, but when you look at that cost over time it adds up. Maybe if you could buy it in a bulk pack that would help. It’s making me consider stippling the grip or just shooting the grip stock. I haven’t decided what I’ll do yet, but I’m interested to see what others are doing.

[badchad]

Here’s something to throw out there. I just watched Jerry Miculek's DVD and he said he puts corn starch on his hands before shooting to make his hands slipperier. I’m not sure what to make of that.