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CCF Raceframe: UPDATED Initial Impression = pending


cledford

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My initial impression is "as I wrote it" and unchanged immediately below - however due to complete failure of the CCF gun to function on only the second box of ammo (total 100 rounds), my original recommendation on these has changed to DO NOT BUY AT THIS TIME. Please refer to 2nd post down for details.

I've updated this thread with more info about the buff issue.

CCF Raceframe: Initial Impression…

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The short of it is, I've been considering one of these for almost a year - since I first heard about them - I've ended buying this or that and never really making it a priority as I was hemming and hawing and figured I'd get to it at some point - BIG MISTAKE, I REALLY wish I'd bought the frame a long time ago -it would have had A LOT of influence on other decisions I'd made. If you are interested in these things, PULL THE TRIGGER and buy one - I doubt you'll be uphappy. Even if they don't end up working out for sport shooting - THETY ARE JUST PLAIN FUN. The rest of my "mini" review is below.

Took the Raceframe out today for the first run since putting it together. For the time being the gun is:

- SS frame

- All Glock OEM lower parts (save the ones provided by CCF), match version of parts when available (I.e 3.5 disconnector, extended mag latch, extended slide release)

- Glock 22 complete upper – right off a G22 gen3 pistol

Gun ran fine, albeit I only put 50 rounds through it – will likely put about 300 more tomorrow. I was shooting Federal factory 180 FMJ ammo. All I can say is WOW – the thing Rocks! I put 30 rounds down range with the 22 and OEM frame first, just to be able to compare the 2. (30 not included in the 50 put though the CCF)

After owning a 35, 27, 24 and 22 (all .40s) I can say the thing I LEAST like about glocks is the trigger bite – shooting the OEM gun first reminded me of this. After running the 2 mags through the OEM gun I switched over the top end. It couldn’t have been easer – just drop the top end off the OEM pistol, pull the guide rod, put in the “shock-buff” (more on this in a bit..), put back the guide rod and reassemble on the CCF frame. 60 seconds tops, and this was to include a liberal application of gun oil to the CCF frame rails – screw all the “run your glock dry” crap – I oil and oil liberally.

Anyhow, I shot it at 15 yards first, at a 6 inch blaze orange stick-on target with a 1 inch black “shoot and see” paster in the center of it. First shot went directly through the paster – I couldn’thave been happier…

I shot the gun at both 7 and 15 yards only. Groups were only slightly smaller at 7 (telling me it mechanically did not make the gun more accurate), but they were MUCH improved at 15 – which I attribute to the weight and that influence on follow-up shots. Things were just much tighter, the groups BETTER then my G35 with Barsto at same distance.

Noticed the trigger was… different. Not bad, just different. I’ve trained myself to let off just to the Glock trigger resets, which on a stock frame is a very noticeable *CLICK* - not so on the CCF – it is very mellow – I even missed it several times. All in all trigger felt noticeably smoother although I did no polishing to either the trigger components or frame, although I intend to. I’m a little put off by missing the reset (I’m guessing the weight of frame + full mag deadens it) although the smoothing out of the trigger in general is a nice trade off. Time will tell on a final verdict, although I’m guessing I’ll get used to the diminished click and continue to rock the trigger as in the past with the OEM frame.

All in all, I’m VERY, VERY pleases with this initial, although limited outing. Only function issue was a single incidence of the slide not locking back on an empty mag. I then loaded 3 sets of 3 rounds into the same mag and did not have any issue with it locking back again. I then continued to use the same mag for the rest of the outing and had not other issues. This leads me to believe I may have been riding the slide lock a little with my grip… Otherwise, If I could right this minute, I’d buy at least 2-3 more CCF frames. One to build a dedicated 9mm gun, one for a long-slide and one to “tuck away.” Providing that they (CCF) finishes debugging them (locking block issues and shock-buff) these will truly revolutionize sport shooting with Glocks. As far as other uses? Not sure, but I can say the look (the grey just looks killer with the contrasting black slide and hardware), the “feel” (the weight, heft, or whatever you want to call it…) and finally the way it mellows out the .40 cartridge – it is well worth the purchase assuming you’ve got the cash. My gut tells me that sport shooters would be the biggest market for these, however, I would advise ANYONE with the spare cash and the inkling to buy a second Glock just to have fun with, skip the OEM Glock and buy a CCF frame – they are a lot of fun and it’s also a great learning experience about your gun by having to order the parts and assemble it.

On the shock buffs – what a joke. I put 50 on mine today and it looks rode hard and put away wet – there is no way on god’s green earth that the buff will make it past 400-500 rounds. At $8.95 retail they REALLY need to figure this out – the buffs SUCK.

Finally, on the changeable backstrap. I ordered both and tried each – moving back and forth. They stay on with friction and I did not install the CCF provided roll pin to secure either at this point. I’d have to say that with my hand size (on the smaller side) going in I was leaning towards the “1911” insert. It felt more comfortable dry firing at home. To my surprise, I found the grip changes on the CCF (beaver tail, relieved undercut trigger guard, checkering, weight) all helped to make the OEM configured grip the one I preferred by the time I was done – which I would have never guessed going in. It looks like with the CCF I’ll be sticking with the OEM grip config, although I’d take a grip reduction on the OEM *FRAME* any day. My 24 is a gen2 but I get this on all of the OEM frames to some extent – the snappiness of the .40 cartridge just does not allow me to keep the same grip on the gun shot to shot, the darn grip just slips all over the place. This thing (the CCF) was CEMENTED in my hand and moved NO WHERE.

Last and not least, THE F’ING TRIGGER BITE IS GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hope this helps,

-Calvin

Edited by cledford
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Took the CCF out as promised today and was VERY, VERY, VERY disappointed! The shock-buff matter is a HUGE PROBLEM! Was shooting 165 Speer "lawman" factory loads and after only 2 mags the slide was sticking - as in it would cycle to rear hang there for a second then slide forward in slow motion. Another mag and it would not go back into battery at all - not without a tap to the rear of the slide. Eventually (another mag) and it bound up completely. I took it apart and the 'buff was DESTROYED - this is right at around 100 rounds total - 50 180 grain federal (yesterday), and in the 45 range of 165 grain Speer Lawman ammo. The Speer is actually target stuff and I’m not sure why they call it lawman but I point this out as it is not super hot or anything. The severe mushrooming of the buff is what caused the gun to cease cycling.

This is completely unacceptable. Since I only bought the frame (direct from CCF) last week and the buff included has got to one of the latest – so I’m not sure how after being on production for the number of months they have that this could happen. And Robar is building guns on these? Do they use the buffer?

The CCF manual states the following:

"We recommend these buffers as they keep the slide’s guide ring from impacting the frame at the rear of its cycle travel."

"Operating your new alloy frame without a polymer buffer will result in damage to your frame and/or your slide.

"If your recoil spring has weakened from use, the buffer will impact too severely & require more frequent replacement."

First they call the buff "recommended" in the first sentence. Then, in the second they *explicitly* state that frame damage will occur if one is not used. Third, they then suggest that if it fails it is likely your spring and not the lousy buff – very nice. This does not hold water in my case. I took the top end off a practically BRAND NEW G22 that had less then 500 rounds through it - the spring is fine. Should anyone suggest it is not, I know there are ways to measure the compression resistance of a spring - I'll pony mine up for testing any day of the week if necessary.

So, I take back what I said yesterday - as discussed in other threads, these are a neat idea, but not ready for production at this point. I'll be calling CCF tomorrow to find out what they are going to do for me - but even if they sent me 20 of their $8.95 buffers (!!! Can you believe the price on them?) If I cannot get more then a 100 rounds down range without chewing one to pieces, I cannot risk the mere thought of using this thing for defense/carry/match shooting (where I've paid an entry fee...) - it is now currently on "plinking status" which is NOT GOOD for a $385 (including shipping, fees, etc.) upgrade.

FWIW, I was shooting with a LE officer with a major agency in MD. He thought the whole thing (steel framed Glocks) was an awesome idea and immediately thought of the SWAT team. The guy I was with was the former Head of firearms training for the agency - so would know what they would want on SWAT. Well, his interest lasted as long as it took to get 45ish rounds down range and then he was shaking his head ruefully as I was walking my $320 dollar paperweight back to the car. I was a little too embarrassed to mention that some owners are buying plumbing washers from Home depot to keep their guns running – I was guessing that such things wouldn’t be viewed too favorably by a guy who’s life depends on his firearm.

My new verdict, the frames might work entirely different with 9mm factory loads, but are not suitable for .40 S&W.

Sorry for the bad news - I'm really disappointed and not just because of the money invested, I had high hopes for the frame for a lot of reasons. FWIW, It shoots like a dream with .40, it just cuts the recoil in half or more. I hope they can figure something out as it would make an awesome gun.

I'll post here as soon as I get CCFs take on things and find out how they plan to take care of the situation.

I will also attempt to take a pic of the destroyed buff and post it.

-Calvin

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Yeah and what I can not figure out is why it needs a buffer. The best I can tell the slide has the same amount of travel as on the oem frame. The only thought I have had that may make sense is that since the CCF frame is heavier it does not move as much therefore the slide actually moves farther back on the frame than with the oem frame. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else or not.

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Took the CCF out as promised today and was VERY, VERY, VERY disappointed! The shock-buff matter is a HUGE PROBLEM! Was shooting 165 Speer "lawman" factory loads and after only 2 mags the slide was sticking - as in it would cycle to rear hang there for a second then slide forward in slow motion. Another mag and it would not go back into battery at all - not without a tap to the rear of the slide. Eventually (another mag) and it bound up completely. I took it apart and the 'buff was DESTROYED - this is right at around 100 rounds total - 50 180 grain federal (yesterday), and in the 45 range of 165 grain Speer Lawman ammo. The Speer is actually target stuff and I’m not sure why they call it lawman but I point this out as it is not super hot or anything. The severe mushrooming of the buff is what caused the gun to cease cycling.

This is completely unacceptable. Since I only bought the frame (direct from CCF) last week and the buff included has got to one of the latest – so I’m not sure how after being on production for the number of months they have that this could happen. And Robar is building guns on these? Do they use the buffer?

The CCF manual states the following:

"We recommend these buffers as they keep the slide’s guide ring from impacting the frame at the rear of its cycle travel."

"Operating your new alloy frame without a polymer buffer will result in damage to your frame and/or your slide.

"If your recoil spring has weakened from use, the buffer will impact too severely & require more frequent replacement."

First they call the buff "recommended" in the first sentence. Then, in the second they *explicitly* state that frame damage will occur if one is not used. Third, they then suggest that if it fails it is likely your spring and not the lousy buff – very nice. This does not hold water in my case. I took the top end off a practically BRAND NEW G22 that had less then 500 rounds through it - the spring is fine. Should anyone suggest it is not, I know there are ways to measure the compression resistance of a spring - I'll pony mine up for testing any day of the week if necessary.

So, I take back what I said yesterday - as discussed in other threads, these are a neat idea, but not ready for production at this point. I'll be calling CCF tomorrow to find out what they are going to do for me - but even if they sent me 20 of their $8.95 buffers (!!! Can you believe the price on them?) If I cannot get more then a 100 rounds down range without chewing one to pieces, I cannot risk the mere thought of using this thing for defense/carry/match shooting (where I've paid an entry fee...) - it is now currently on "plinking status" which is NOT GOOD for a $385 (including shipping, fees, etc.) upgrade.

FWIW, I was shooting with a LE officer with a major agency in MD. He thought the whole thing (steel framed Glocks) was an awesome idea and immediately thought of the SWAT team. The guy I was with was the former Head of firearms training for the agency - so would know what they would want on SWAT. Well, his interest lasted as long as it took to get 45ish rounds down range and then he was shaking his head ruefully as I was walking my $320 dollar paperweight back to the car. I was a little too embarrassed to mention that some owners are buying plumbing washers from Home depot to keep their guns running – I was guessing that such things wouldn’t be viewed too favorably by a guy who’s life depends on his firearm.

My new verdict, the frames might work entirely different with 9mm factory loads, but are not suitable for .40 S&W.

Sorry for the bad news - I'm really disappointed and not just because of the money invested, I had high hopes for the frame for a lot of reasons. FWIW, It shoots like a dream with .40, it just cuts the recoil in half or more. I hope they can figure something out as it would make an awesome gun.

I'll post here as soon as I get CCFs take on things and find out how they plan to take care of the situation.

I will also attempt to take a pic of the destroyed buff and post it.

-Calvin

Calvin:

I run 40 S&W major loads, .357 SIG, and 9mm in my CCF frame. I use stock recoil spring and no shock buffs. It is not necessary in my opinion. I have a total of well over 10,000 rounds without using a buffer. The frame is a great product.

Those of us who are competitive shooters really push the envelope with equipment. For example, I run a Glock 17 upper on my stainless steel frame for shooting IDPA (ESP). In order to make the gun compliant with the rules, I cut an inch off the dust cover, trimmed off the beaver tail, and did some frame lightening to allow a magwell to be installed to make the weight limitations. I knew I had voided my warranty as soon as I cut on the frame. But the way I look at it is that I want something that fits my needs and I am willing to take responsibility for my actions.

I am in the process of building a USPSA Limited gun using another stainless steel CCF frame. I have an aluminum frame as well. I know this doesn't make sense, but running .357 Sig on the aluminum frame actually feels as soft as the steel frame. The bottom line is that this is a new product and we are pushing it beyond its intended use- so we have to use common sense and take responsibility for for what we do. For example, on my IDPA steel frame, a buddy of mine was doing a trigger job for me and I forgot to tell him the locking block was glued in. To make a long story short, it is not now. It has run without problem one for over 8,000 rounds like this.

I can tell you that if you put a non-Glock barrel in the gun you need to make sure you take care to install it correctly. And just because a person might call himself a gunsmith doesn't necessarily means he knows what he is doing if he doesn't have experience installing aftermarket barrels for the Glock.

Good luck with your project!

Oh yeah, if you want to do something to eliminate shock buffs with the .40 S&W and, of course, void your warranty, mill off about 0.120" from the front of the frame in the area where the slide ring might impact.

Best regards,

Jim Taylor

Land of the 15,000 Rifles

Kabul, Afghanistan

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I was bummed at first with my CCF 35 project. The buffer thing is annoying but some of us like to tinker and improve/solve issue we come across. I shot a match with the CCf last weekend and am pretty pleased now. It's still short term but we'll see. There have been plenty of post's about the shock buffs in the past so it shouldn't come as a surprise.

post-7565-1203522321.jpg

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Spoke to CCF first thing this morning and came away with a “warm fuzzy” so am currently satisfied they’re well away of the issue and working on it – although I’m not sure I like their solution (#1 interim, #2 their preferred), we’ll see what the end result is. Here is what was communicated to me and it all makes sense:

1. Glock used the same captured 17lb recoil spring/guide rod for ALL of their 9mm/.40/.357sig/45gap large frame guns.

2. Both the stock Glock frame and the dimensionally faithful (at least in the guide-rod channel/ dust cover/ slidestop area) CCF race-frame both have too little room built in the guide rod channel to allow the slide to travel through a compete cycle and therefore all the guns in all the calibers ALL short cycle with the slide hitting both frames every round.

a. The Glock frame being polymer compresses a bit and is the final bit of cushion for the slide on stock models. Glcok does not care about the issue as it isn’t one from their perspective.

b. The weak 17lb spring (from other then a 9mm perspective) only increases the velocity at which the slide batters the frame.

c. The CCF buffer contributes to the issue as it further reduces the room to travel for the slide while not being strong enough to take the battering from the heavier bullet weights like the 180 grain .40 and the 230 .45 GAP.

Here is where I’ve got some hesitation as to what I was told. It was stated to me that during development testing CCF saw 2000-2500 rounds life for the buff using 9mm target loads. He also stated that they saw 1800-2000 life for 165 grain .40. He stated that the issue kind of crept up on them as they did not test 180 grain bullets! I really question this, but am not going to call them untruthful – I just wonder how going up 15 grains in bullet weight reduces the buffer lifespan of 20 times or that they failed to test the market leading (in a huge volume from what I see on my gun store shelves) 180 .40 bullet weight.

Anyhow, I was told there are currently 3 solutions to the issue with the 180 grain bullets (he mentioned the .45GAP also, but did not mention the .357sig although that could have been an oversight):

1. Replace the stock 17lb spring with a 20lb ISMI flat wire spring and continue to use the buffs. A normal buff life span should be expected. I’m a little bother by this as it puts the resolution on the customer to buy a part to make their gun function correctly with the far and away market leading .40 S&W load. I guess after all of the money I spent on the frame, plus the lower parts I should be worried about the cost of a spring – but it is a little annoying never less. Pluse it assumes that you are still going to run the buff – I’m not crazy about them at this point.

2. Wait for their almost ready proprietary, adjustable guiderod/spring kit. I’ve got the same issues as above with this solution, unless they end up giving their existing customers the rods since there was no announcement regarding the 180 grain issue and had there been I (we) might have waited out the issue to see what the solution was.

3. Send the gun to a gunsmith and have the slide stop milled back a bit to allow the slide to fully travel without smacking into the frame. (What stops the slide then) I don’t like this as it is going to require much more $$$. I’m guessing $150 to $200 more when you figure in overnight shipping both ways (I’m assuming the frames have to shipped just like guns, over night carrier only) plus at least $50 to $100 for the work. I could deal with the this *IF* it resolves the issue AND allows one to dump the buff altogether. The big issue here is that you now have around $570 invested (assuming frame cost, shipping, transfer fees, lower parts+shipping, plus shipping and labor for milling) to get the frame up and running. That’s a lot of cheese as my dad would say…

All in all, I was treated well on the phone and he took a lot of time to explain the issue to me. I can’t say I’m crazy about the situation or totally impressed with the customer shouldering the cost of fixing the issue – but I’m also assuming this to be the case and who knows how they’ll actually handle it. The gentleman was very cool to send me a couple buffs free of charge.

-Calvin

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I've heard some complaints about CCF frames. About the locking block gets broken when the barrel is not properly fitted. How true is this? Can we just put a drop-in barrel in it ? Or , it needs to be fitted.

nphd2000,

Who makes that magwell for the CCF frames? Thanks!

Edited by Eagle40
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Oh yeah, if you want to do something to eliminate shock buffs with the .40 S&W and, of course, void your warranty, mill off about 0.120" from the front of the frame in the area where the slide ring might impact.

Hi Jim, Thanks for all of the great info!

I'll likely go the milling route and still think the frame is a VERY important step for Glocks, action pistol shooting and gun ownership. Having said that, I agree with everything you said, but would through this caveat out to new purchasers or those considering a purchase. The CCF frames are awesome pieces of workmanship and potential, however whether the manufacturer is willing to state it or not, they are still in "Beta" (pre-production) status from my perspective.

While it should be assumed when going off into the competitive shooting "deep end of the pool," you are on your own to sort through things, I do not believe new purchasers should be UNAWARE that due to the newness of the product THEY are on their own also. I say this as the frames should function reliably with most common version of readily available target ammo when plinking at the range. Currently they don't and to run them otherwise voids your warranty.

Jim, any recommendations on who to send the pistol off to?

Thanks again for the help and I really am impressed with the frame, just not so impressed by what I see as a less then "all over it" response from the vendor, who while very polite to me, seems under-whelmed that their guns are highly unreliable as shipped and they are in full swing as far shipping them. I'd like to see them at least update the manual/website to reflect what they've learned about the issue.

-Calvin

Edited by cledford
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I don't remember who makes the magwell but the important info is it is a "stock fit" magwell and I had to modify the frame to fit it. In theory any magwell will now fit my frame.

I've heard some complaints about CCF frames. About the locking block gets broken when the barrel is not properly fitted. How true is this? Can we just put a drop-in barrel in it ? Or , it needs to be fitted.

nphd2000,

Who makes that magwell for the CCF frames? Thanks!

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Just curious, why wouldn't you just go get a good 1911 wide body to start with?

I own a P14 and SERIOUSLY considered a P16 with the funds I invested in this project. To boil it down - *IF* the frames can be made to work, you have a means to build/tech your own gun for 1/3 that of a gun that just to be built takes 12 months or more and thousands of dollars... Don't get me wrong, I'm a big 1911 fan and own several - but am done with shipping guns "over night" to sit around at someones shop for twice the time quoted for virtually anything that needs to be done. I figured I'd take a chance on these and see how it goes.

-Calvin

Edited by cledford
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Send it to SJC. I don't know of anyone more versed in working on Glocks. You should be able to ship the frame ground without the overnight costs if you don't have to send the top end with it.

The frame is legally a firearm, and you'll have to declare that it is to the shipper, per federal law. Per Fed-Ex and UPS policy, you will have to overnight the frame. It doesn't matter if it's not a complete firearm. I sucks, but that's the way it is.

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