USPSA Multigun Rules 2008

[Chuck Anderson]

Saying that one person with one set of eye problems can do it is a panacea for writing off a division is...well short sighted.

Once again. No one is taking away your iron sight Division (now it's even a division, not just a category) From the very beginning USPSA (or at least Bruce Gary) always said there was an option for HM Tactical. That was part of the reason for originally making it a category. You could have it be a category of Limited or Tactical.

Who is slapping who in the face. You're the one who said that shooters who went to Tactical did it because it's easier. I did it because I could use the same equipment that I use at work. And because Iron sights don't work well for me. And because I hate shooting open. Just out of curiousity have your eyes started to harden with age, as most folks will? I always find it interesting when someone tells people they need to work harder to overcome a problem that the person making the statement doesn't have. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Edited February 23, 2008 by Lawman

[kurtm]

Lawman, I based my statement on the fact that for 3 years when I ran the rules for RM3G, I activly poled the HM shooters (almost all of them still ACTIVLY shoot HM, and I know almost all of them) and it was through this interaction that I found out what the "vast majority" of HM people wanted, so just because you think there hasn't been any study on the matter, doesn't change the results I obtained, nor the results of the poles that Religious placed on these forums.

I am sorry Lasic wrinkled your eye! I am sorry My life of drunken debauchary has caused me irreprable liver damage and memory loss, but even with these short comings I find I can still find a way to play within the limits of the divisions I chose, instead of triing to create new ones which dilute the intent of the division in the first place. I think that HM needs to ....um....ahh...where were we?? KURTM

[bigbrowndog]

Lawman. first and foremost, I really don't consider USPSA to be viable reference to what is capable in multigun / 3 gun, for the reason that you state.

The "other" matches around the country do fill up!!! and they are where the test bed for HM was developed. As for Open being the easiest division to compete in, I disagree on the basis of cost versus ease of use, Yes we as people want it easy but at some point cost enters into the fray. Why do you think people tend to use optics on their rifles, because its EASIER!!!

Ask most people who decide to shoot a dot on their pistol why they do it, because its EASIER. Be it easier to SEE the sights or easier than having to line front and rear sights, or easier to NOT put in the time to learn how to be competitive with irons. Why do you think some Shotgun shooters want to shoot the Saiga shotgun in competition, because its easier than having to learn how to load a shotgun well. Easy is nice, easy is......................EASY.

I am not trying to alienate or anger shooters that have a disability, and still get out and shoot to the best of their ability.

IT'S EASIER!!!!!

[Chuck Anderson]

Kurt, I got the location and the test group that you looked at, but HM shooters, up to this point, have been Iron sight shooters. If you poll that group, that's the result you will get. As far as Gordon's poll, how many responses were there, 50ish? That's not exactly a statistical certainty. To be honest I don't think the question should be what do current HM shooters want. The question should be how to make it so the current ones don't leave but more folks decide to shoot it. As far as the optics, that seems like a reasonable way to do it. You still have iron sight division for the folks who want it and for the folks who want an optic, they have a place to shoot as well. I've talked to several folks, not hundreds but more than a couple, that are planning to build .308 rifles for HM competition now that they can add an optic. Is that going to dramatically change HM, I doubt it.

Trapr as far as whether you consider USPSA a viable reference for this discussion, that is what it is about...USPSA. This is not a requirement for IMGA, it is a way to try and breathe the fresh air into what is a pretty sad branch of multi gun. IMGA matches tend to fill, USPSA rarely (and I'm not sure on the Area matches so that is why there is the wiggle room) fill.

Okay you win your other argument. Optics are easier to shoot. Who cares. You can still shoot Iron sights and not have to compete against us wussy, easy way out taking optics shooters. If there is a large portion of the HM crowd that chooses to shoot optics and take the easy way out, well I don't know what to say to that. If they move away from Irons to shoot optics, I guess there will be some negative impact. If it adds folks to the HM fold, wouldn't that be a good thing though?

[Religious Shooter]

As far as Gordon's poll, how many responses were there, 50ish? That's not exactly a statistical certainty.

It's currently at a little over a 100.

How many did USPSA BOD poll? 5-10?

I mean it's gotta be low for them to restrict pistol to SS metal and 8+1.

It's just flat out crazy they chose to restrict HM to SS.

[Chuck Anderson]

Sorry, I was referring to the 58 folks that picked Iron only. Not exactly dominating over the 41 who wanted Iron and Optics. As far as the SS pistol rules I completely disagree with the way they wrote those rules.

[Heavy Metal Only]

it would seem that ALL the people USPSA spoke to or "heard from" haven't spoken up on this forum. I can only assume its the same people who say I'd shoot HM if I could shoot an auto shotgun instead of a pump. I just spoke with someone who I know would shot HM if they didn't have to shoot a pump, lets break that category out too, but lets make it, auto with an optic because its hard to line up the front and rear sight for slugs, and allow 20ga. because those 3 dram 1 1/8oz. loads hurt when the trigger gets pulled.

Better yet, lets just download everything onto the internet and we can shoot with virtual weapons, and those that can't see the iron sights can have "heads up display" on their computer.

Trapr

I would shoot h/m if I could use my 410

[bigbrowndog]

HMO, I think you need to change your alias to, "heavy metal .410"

Trapr

[GentlemanJim]

If you guys are just Funnin....I stand corrected.

Im sending a few beers over to helpyou hash this out

Edited February 24, 2008 by GentlemanJim

[bigbrowndog]

Jim, I concur, but you also have to know who's poking fun at someone they know, and who is stirring the pot, and who is completely innocent to what is going on, who is goading, and who is serious, who feels strongly about their opinion and who just really doesn't care.

And since we cannot know all of that, why take any one part more serious than another.

trapr

[Heavy Metal Only]

I was going to voice my real opinion but, I didn't want to get this tread closed.yet again.

[mpeltier]

No direspect intended Kurt but maybe your poll is a bit out of date. According to the 2007 RM3G final results it appears there were 29 Heavy metal shooters, 15 scoped and 14 Iron. Or did I miss something?

Trapr what did you shoot in that tournament?

Edited February 24, 2008 by mpeltier

[kurtm]

Ahh! It only takes a few times till I get it Lawman...Yes the guys shooting HM ( he-man as Eddie born it.) Are ...well.... iron men. I now get your point. As I pointed out I feel that an optic should have been allowed all along, but the people shooting it then and mostly now voted to maintain iron. Now with that said, I know several people who will now be shooting "tac heavy" one is young and ambitious and the other...well, very crafty. Unfortunatly they both shot HM w/ iron before so we yet again we drop some iron guys to the dark side of optics ( there is majic in optics which I do not understand....therefore they are evil! )....BTW you are right, after rereading Gordo,s polls, it isn't a vast majority. So where does that leave us?? I got no clue, but If I am the MD I will listen to my customers! KURTM

[kurtm]

Mpeltier, no you didn't miss anything...and neither did I, at lease in the Beer/Cirgar Malt department! SEE??? That memory loss thing again! I did get from several of the optic guys, that they would still rather it be iron, but if they ( RM3G) are going to allow a scope I am going to take advantage if it. It did allow several people to play in HM that wouldn't/ couldn't otherwise, but it did effectivly half the division, so someones point about diluting the division is somewhat valid. Thanks for pointing this out as I was and remain...out of date, and without a clue....BUT it is real nice in my world

[bigbrowndog]

i'm sorry Mike, I'm not replying due to my crass sense of humor I don't want to upset folks with my reply.........................................ahhhhhhhhh F.I.

YES, mike I shot HM optic at RM3g, because our good freind Merlin, loaned me his rifle to use however I got it with about a week to prepare for the match and suitable iron sights were not available. I will agree, though it hurts my head to do so, or maybe thats the alcohol.....with Kurt. If the shooters, the actual shooters and not someone with no real intent to try it, decide they want Optics in HM then it would be stupid on my part to not listen. However MY opinion is that HM should stay with no optic.

The way I remember the reasoning for doing it (not USPSA, but generally) was to encourage more shooters into shooting HM, I am afraid that what it will accomplish is the same thing that allowing one optic on a rifle did, slowly deplete the shooters from the iron sight side to the point that people start talking about doing away with that division because of low turn out. when there was talk of doing away with limited/irons I felt that I would just go to HM so that I would have a division that my equipment fit into. If HM optic effectively does the same to HM, and the participation falls off, will MD's decide to do the same thing. It just makes no sense to me how you can increase participation in a match if you are not going to allow more shooters into the match but you are going to make more divisions. Some division is going to suffer.

Trapr

[Charles Bond]

Hey Guys:

I have been reading this thread and a number of things are not clear to me from the items posted here. Rather than address all of the posts, let me give you some background.

When the BOD considered this what we saw was that HM optic was something that was being successfully marketed by several non USPSA matches. Our desire in adding it to the multigun rules was to drawn more people to our sport.

Using the 12 g pump and the single stack 45 for heavy metal MG was what I had been told by several HM shooters was desired and that was feedback that other members of the BOD had received as well.

Keep in mind that all of the MG rules are provisional and can be changed at any time by the BOD. I really fail to see how HM optic should offend anyone who wants to shoot HM iron. As to what shotgun and pistol which should be allowed, I would encourage you that if you had rather have it differently, lobby your AD but keep in mind that the pump and 45 single stack were inserted to set HM apart from the other divisions.

[kurtm]

Trapr is right about one thing. I have already been contacted by 2 MDs that put on big 3-gun matches, that they will probably be doing away with the "iron sight"/limited division due to lack of participation. So in order to "grow" an optic division in either HM or "tactical" we have effectivly killed the Limited/iron division. Of course I am always welcome to shoot irons in any Scope division, but I feel we are killing off one of the lowest cost segments of our sport. Sorry about the thread drift, but it is a true reality of what we are doing here. I guess it is time for yet another poll. I would hate to put in the time to shoot IRON when I should be practicing with an optic. KURTM

[MKuhn]

I shoot irons, and my eyes are terrible. How ever, with proper eye correction (one sees the target the other sees the front sight) I can be quite accurate at 400+ yds. My other secret; I embrace the renown and deadly “cone of fire” for both reconnaissance and targeting.

For me, figuring how to overcome the obstacles is part of the game, but you know what they say; “if its tough change the rules" or "just use your easy button”.

Mell

[Religious Shooter]

The current PDF has the PF for HM as 320 (Appendix B1/2).

(iii)b “Heavy Metal” division within the context of a USPSA multi-gun

match at this time Will follow the guidelines of the newly formed

Heavy Metal division in the USPSA Tournament and Appendix B1

& B2 of the Multigun rules.

Handgun: Major Power Factor, Maximum of 9 rounds loaded,

Max. of 8 in magazine in the case of Rule 8.1.1.2. Any

Single Stack in 45 ACP that meets the SS rules

allowed

Rifle: Major Power Factor, at least .308 Caliber. No more

than 20 rounds loaded in a magazine.

Shotgun: 12-gauge; No more than 9 rounds loaded, Pump only.

Looks like my P14 is legal to me. It doesn't say "only" SS in 45 ACP's are legal.

Also B1/2 doesn't have restrictions on the compensator's dimensions. It's good for me.

[Alan Meek]

The current PDF has the PF for HM as 320 (Appendix B1/2).

(iii)b “Heavy Metal” division within the context of a USPSA multi-gun

match at this time Will follow the guidelines of the newly formed

Heavy Metal division in the USPSA Tournament and Appendix B1

& B2 of the Multigun rules.

Handgun: Major Power Factor, Maximum of 9 rounds loaded,

Max. of 8 in magazine in the case of Rule 8.1.1.2. Any

Single Stack in 45 ACP that meets the SS rules

allowed

Rifle: Major Power Factor, at least .308 Caliber. No more

than 20 rounds loaded in a magazine.

Shotgun: 12-gauge; No more than 9 rounds loaded, Pump only.

Looks like my P14 is legal to me. It doesn't say "only" SS in 45 ACP's are legal.

Also B1/2 doesn't have restrictions on the compensator's dimensions. It's good for me.

Does your P14 meet the SSD rules?

[Religious Shooter]

No it doesn't.

[arrowrod]

I hate to use the word stupid. Single Stack .45? 3-Gun is not about the pistol anyway. It is about the rifle and shotgun. In fact, I wonder why it isn't 2-gun.

The two local clubs I shoot 3-gun at use 10 round .40 cal for pistol for HM. Why?, because we are old, but not that old. They only people infatuated with SS .45 are WWII guys, and the last time I looked, they are leaving us. Go to you local gun store. They have a whole stack of .45s that nobody will buy. Angus Hobdell won the Florida Open SS last year. He beat two other guys. Give it up.

If the rules are stupid, they will be ignored.

360 PF for rifle? Why. We use 320.

Ain't the 3-Gun rules still provisional?

Does anybody on the BOD shoot HM? Does any USPSA affiliated club shoot 3-gun by USPSA rules? We don't.

3-Gun HM is 308 PF 320 with no optics, 20 round magazine, 12 gauge pump with 8+1 no optics no comps. Major power factor factory ammunition pistol with 10 round magazines no optics no comps. Have you all got that!

If you can't see, shoot a mouse gun with optics.

[Mike P]

I hate to use the word stupid. Single Stack .45? 3-Gun is not about the pistol anyway. It is about the rifle and shotgun. In fact, I wonder why it isn't 2-gun.

The two local clubs I shoot 3-gun at use 10 round .40 cal for pistol for HM. Why?, because we are old, but not that old. They only people infatuated with SS .45 are WWII guys, and the last time I looked, they are leaving us. Go to you local gun store. They have a whole stack of .45s that nobody will buy. Angus Hobdell won the Florida Open SS last year. He beat two other guys. Give it up.

If the rules are stupid, they will be ignored.

360 PF for rifle? Why. We use 320.

Ain't the 3-Gun rules still provisional?

Does anybody on the BOD shoot HM? Does any USPSA affiliated club shoot 3-gun by USPSA rules? We don't.

3-Gun HM is 308 PF 320 with no optics, 20 round magazine, 12 gauge pump with 8+1 no optics no comps. Major power factor factory ammunition pistol with 10 round magazines no optics no comps. Have you all got that!

If you can't see, shoot a mouse gun with optics.

Or if you are old, but not that old shoot a .40 cal and a seriously downloaded .308, eh?

I'm not really for HM optics and SS only either, but like the power factor change.

[Chuck Anderson]

I hate to use the word stupid. Single Stack .45? 3-Gun is not about the pistol anyway. It is about the rifle and shotgun. In fact, I wonder why it isn't 2-gun.

The two local clubs I shoot 3-gun at use 10 round .40 cal for pistol for HM. Why?, because we are old, but not that old. They only people infatuated with SS .45 are WWII guys, and the last time I looked, they are leaving us. Go to you local gun store. They have a whole stack of .45s that nobody will buy. Angus Hobdell won the Florida Open SS last year. He beat two other guys. Give it up.

If the rules are stupid, they will be ignored.

360 PF for rifle? Why. We use 320.

Ain't the 3-Gun rules still provisional?

Does anybody on the BOD shoot HM? Does any USPSA affiliated club shoot 3-gun by USPSA rules? We don't.

3-Gun HM is 308 PF 320 with no optics, 20 round magazine, 12 gauge pump with 8+1 no optics no comps. Major power factor factory ammunition pistol with 10 round magazines no optics no comps. Have you all got that!

If you can't see, shoot a mouse gun with optics.

I see that you are new to the forums and may be used to the other forums that are a bit less...civilized. The fact that you have an opinion is great. However, people have opinions as well and probably don't need to be denigrated or talked down to for having them. The rules are the rules. Heavy Metal is still in evolution. Just because your club doesn't shoot it that way doesn't make your club right and USPSA wrong. So you know, the clubs that started HM and run it regularly don't use your rules either. I'm not sure where you got them.

[steel1212]

I hate to use the word stupid. Single Stack .45? 3-Gun is not about the pistol anyway. It is about the rifle and shotgun. In fact, I wonder why it isn't 2-gun.

The two local clubs I shoot 3-gun at use 10 round .40 cal for pistol for HM. Why?, because we are old, but not that old. They only people infatuated with SS .45 are WWII guys, and the last time I looked, they are leaving us. Go to you local gun store. They have a whole stack of .45s that nobody will buy. Angus Hobdell won the Florida Open SS last year. He beat two other guys. Give it up.

If the rules are stupid, they will be ignored.

360 PF for rifle? Why. We use 320.

Ain't the 3-Gun rules still provisional?

Does anybody on the BOD shoot HM? Does any USPSA affiliated club shoot 3-gun by USPSA rules? We don't.

3-Gun HM is 308 PF 320 with no optics, 20 round magazine, 12 gauge pump with 8+1 no optics no comps. Major power factor factory ammunition pistol with 10 round magazines no optics no comps. Have you all got that!

If you can't see, shoot a mouse gun with optics.

I'm infatuated with the SS .45 and I wasn't even around for vietnam! I still don't think HM should be restricted to it though. 10 rounds of .45 from any pistol ya want. I think if you add optics to HM you kind of made it less challenging. The guys that shoot it are looking for a challenge. There is already a place for the optic 308 to shoot and with the same parts as .223 has now, reduced weight carriers, adjustable gas blocks, comps, they shoot pretty damn flat and would be fine for somebody to shoot in Tactical.

I'm with Kurt and Trapr on this, I think if you allow optics in HM they are going to do away with the Irons class because nobody will shoot it but the few, the proud, the real He-Men.