USPSA Multigun Rules 2008

[Heavy Metal Only]

I would like to know who this division split is accomodating, cause it sounds like 90% of the respoces are just complaining. I for one don't have the money to go and buy new gear for every match I shoot. I'm against the scope and what the hell does it matter if I have an xd? I guess I can't use my new para I just got either, cause its a .45 1911 style but not an ss. bull crap! Who ever is makining the rules are only making me not want to shoot a 3-gun match ever again. I think they should have a requirment that you are at least 6'5 or you can't weigh more than 140 pounds cause that makes about as much sence.

[Airedale]

I just spoke with Gary Stevens and he confirmed the pistol must meet single stack rules and must be a .45 ACP (and make major, of course).

That clears it up for me.

Pat-Ky State Multigun will be the largest 3 gun I shoot this year.

Dave

I just read the rule, and it states that any gun that is SS compliant is OK, but it doesn't say that "only" SS compliant guns are allowed.

I read it the same way. That's why I called Gary (A5 rep) for a clarification. When I asked is my XD ok, he said only SS compliant .45 1911 pistols are allowed. His word is good enough for me. I suspect USPSA may want to clarify the wording.

Dave

[dt1]

I would like to know who this division split is accomodating, cause it sounds like 90% of the respoces are just complaining. I for one don't have the money to go and buy new gear for every match I shoot. I'm against the scope and what the hell does it matter if I have an xd? I guess I can't use my new para I just got either, cause its a .45 1911 style but not an ss. bull crap! Who ever is makining the rules are only making me not want to shoot a 3-gun match ever again. I think they should have a requirment that you are at least 6'5 or you can't weigh more than 140 pounds cause that makes about as much sence.

Easy Mr. Metal don't let it get the better of ya!..........This stuff is suppose to be for fun after all. Not worth getting worked up over it.

[Heavy Metal Only]

I'm not getting worked up. I remember when 3-gun use to be fun. someone is just tring to be difficult and thats not cool. I wonder if hes the same guy whos raising the price of lead too.

[Jim Norman]

Simple soulutions to simple problems are rare!

Limited. All Limited Gear, Not a problem

Open, ANY item is OPEN and you arein Open, not a problem

Tactical. ONE Optic and an Iron back-up on a rifle, all else is Limited, Not a problem

Now the plot thickens:

Heavy Metal and Heavy Metal Tactical

First; WHY?

Because, many of us older people and some younger people want to shoot REAL rifles, but can no longer see irons and the targets. SO: Heavy Metal, .30 cal making major, 20 rounds only in mag, 12 ga. Pump, 8+1, .45 pitol, max of 11 in gun.

HM Tactical, add a scope to the rifle.

Why do we have to limit HM to Single Stacks? Is there room for a "Real Heavy Metal" Catagory? I thnk there could be. You shoot an M1 or an '03 Springfield or an Enfield or an 8mm Mauser. Pump Shotgun and a 1911 with flush mags. Call it WWII retro division.

Score us all Time Plus, but make the penalties big enough to make sense, then adjust all stages to 100 points. Everything we do should count equally. One shot at an 8" plate at 300 yards or a rifle to failure then pistol stage. All are skill sets that count and all if not performed would end your "Match" if the targets were other than paper and plate.

Jim

[bigbrowndog]

it would seem that ALL the people USPSA spoke to or "heard from" haven't spoken up on this forum. I can only assume its the same people who say I'd shoot HM if I could shoot an auto shotgun instead of a pump. I just spoke with someone who I know would shot HM if they didn't have to shoot a pump, lets break that category out too, but lets make it, auto with an optic because its hard to line up the front and rear sight for slugs, and allow 20ga. because those 3 dram 1 1/8oz. loads hurt when the trigger gets pulled.

Better yet, lets just download everything onto the internet and we can shoot with virtual weapons, and those that can't see the iron sights can have "heads up display" on their computer.

Trapr

[Religious Shooter]

You know it's kind of puzzling why USPSA choose to use such unpopular equipment rules. A number of the BOD are on this board. And I know at least Mr. Gary was aware of those HM equipment polls since he posted a message on one.

Quite exasperating.

[Bryan 45]

While we're changing things, can we change Trooper class to allow wagons for the gear if you have a doctor's note?

My knees hurt when it rains.

I apologize for my weak moment and the sarcasm that followed it. It's just that not everything is suppose to be easy. Heavy Metal use to be known as HE-MAN for three very important reasons-- .308 no optics, .45, and pump shotgun.

[bigbrowndog]

Bryan, next time you shoot Trooper class, wear some Generals stars and ORDER the others to carry your $hit!!!!!!!!!!

come on use your imagination!!!

trapr

[Jim Norman]

I have to say that I find some of the comments from my fellow shooters unbelievable.

I truly hope that none of you will ever need to wear glasses, or have your back leave you lying on the floor for a week.

No one seems to have any problem with at least the first two original divisions.

Limited. All Limited Gear

Open, ANY item is OPEN and you are in Open

Some people seem to have trouble with Tactical. Why? It depletes the prize pool? I can't beat tactical class shooters with my iron sights? I think that if you have anything less than 100% ability, you should not bother PLAYING our game.

Tactical. ONE Optic and an Iron back-up on a rifle, all else is Limited.

We then decide that the scoring methods we use are more than a little biased towards minor PF rifles, so we open up a division for people that want to shoot a major PF rifle. We willingly encumber that division with limits on the pistol and shotgun. Pistol currently varies from 1911 SS only at 8+1 to any .45 and 10+1. Shotgun is pretty much standardized at Pump and 8+1. That is Heavy Metal as it more or less stands today.

Now the same people that want to shoot a heavy Metal Division are finding that they have EXACTLY the same problem in HM that they had in Limited. They (That is you and me and the rest of us vision challenged people) have found out that they can hit targets they can see, but a 300 yard shot at a 10" plate with irons is a virtual shot in the dark, We just can not see the target. We have asked for and hopefully will get HM Tactical, same rules as HM, but one optic and a back-up iron on the rifle, pistol and sg no changes.

I am still good with this. It does not have a negative effect, in fact it is likely to keep people shooting longer and bring in more shooters.

Then we get the next complaint, Trooper class, my gear is too heavy, can I bring a cart. There I will draw the line. Lets be honest. Trooper class with a wagon already exists across 5 divisions. Limited, Open, Tactical, HM and HM Tactical have no restriction on using a cart. Asking to use a cart in Trooper is akin to asking to use Open equipment in Limited.

Can we all take a step back and look at this calmly?

Jim, an eyeglass wearing, bad back suffering, sore kneed, shooter that still strives to shoot every chance he can, Norman

[bigbrowndog]

Jim, I couldn't tell from your post if you were pro more divisions and changes or con????

Trapr, Also has a hard time seeing a 10" plate at 300, thru iron sights, but practices and works on ALL 3 guns, so he has a better chance of performing better in a match, and works out so he can be as limber and flexible as his 44 y.o. body will allow him, Swonson

If it was easy, EVERYONE could do it. Do you think short guys in the NBA, would like the basket lowered, or do you think they just worked HARDER. Limited is not for everyone, its for people who can still perform at an acceptable level without the crutch of an optic on the rifle or pistol, a comp on the pistol, HM is for those of us that can do that without the aid of an automatic shotgun, or an optic on the rifle and limited capacity in your handgun.

[Jim Norman]

Jim, I couldn't tell from your post if you were pro more divisions and changes or con????

Trapr, Also has a hard time seeing a 10" plate at 300, thru iron sights, but practices and works on ALL 3 guns, so he has a better chance of performing better in a match, and works out so he can be as limber and flexible as his 44 y.o. body will allow him, Swonson

If it was easy, EVERYONE could do it. Do you think short guys in the NBA, would like the basket lowered, or do you think they just worked HARDER. Limited is not for everyone, its for people who can still perform at an acceptable level without the crutch of an optic on the rifle or pistol, a comp on the pistol, HM is for those of us that can do that without the aid of an automatic shotgun, or an optic on the rifle and limited capacity in your handgun.

Allow me to clarify. I am 100% in favor of the six divisions I listed.

You are correct. If you can't see anymore, then switch to Tac, or Open. So what is wrong with HM Tac? I like my M1A and my 590 and my .45. I still can't see, so why shouldn't I have a place to play? Using your logic why do we need HM? Just shoot your HM gear in Limited!

I am NOT in favor of a wagon in Trooper class. That arguably already exists in the remaining 5 divisions.

Jim

[M ammo]

Jim, I couldn't tell from your post if you were pro more divisions and changes or con????

Trapr, Also has a hard time seeing a 10" plate at 300, thru iron sights, but practices and works on ALL 3 guns, so he has a better chance of performing better in a match, and works out so he can be as limber and flexible as his 44 y.o. body will allow him, Swonson

If it was easy, EVERYONE could do it. Do you think short guys in the NBA, would like the basket lowered, or do you think they just worked HARDER. Limited is not for everyone, its for people who can still perform at an acceptable level without the crutch of an optic on the rifle or pistol, a comp on the pistol, HM is for those of us that can do that without the aid of an automatic shotgun, or an optic on the rifle and limited capacity in your handgun.

I don’t have a problem with more divisions.

We run 6 at our local club,, printing out certificates is cheap.

I have a problem with having to have a single stack .45 ( I own one )

But that is not the point, if you want 7+1 in a .45 fine who cares what kind of .45 is just limit how many rounds you put in the gun. A new M&P or the .45 your granddad had in war, pick your poison.

I don’t have the Forward Observer Calibrated eye balls I had back in the day.

I like scopes.

So HM with a scope would work for me. In fact I bought a DPMS 308 just in case the next time I shot a TacPro and the wind gets up to 30 MPH,,, I’d shoot the 308 that day.

Drops wise,, same same,,, holding in the wind, and gusts ,, heavy bullets win,,

Trooper class,, I had enough of that for 20 years as a 13F.. ABN & Air Assault

You guys have at it!!

Jim M ammo

[bigbrowndog]

Jim, I never said we "needed" HM, but its there. Why do we "NEED" HM optic. BTW, I intend to shoot my HM rifle in IPSC rifle matches overseas, because they use paper at distance instead of steel like we do here, so in that case it is actually to your advantage to use major PF.

Also, I feel we could do away with this whole discussion if at least on IMGA scoring we recognized that .308 would neutralize a target with 1 A,B,or C zone hit, then even with the limited magazine capacity, it would become competitive with the .223. And we could just go back to irons or optics.

Trapr

[DMS42]

Guess I'll stir the pot a little.

I like to shoot HM and even bought almost every pump shotgun made trying to find one that my bum left shoulder would let me shoot. I start out okay, but part way through the shoulder starts to give out and instead of using the left arm to pump the shotgun I am bringing the gun down and pushing with my right arm. By the time the match is over the shoulder is so far gone that I am having troubles even holding the shotgun up.

Therefore, I really would like to see more 3 gun matches allow auto shotguns in HM class, but called HM Tac or something else.

I don't see that happening in my neck of the woods. So my choices are to use a light weight pump shotgun and know that I'm still going to have problems or shoot in a class that allows me to use an auto shotgun. I would prefer to use my M1A because that is what I have used since the early 80s, but if I am to go to a class or division that I can use my auto shotgun I am at a disavantage with the iron sighted M1A. My solution was to buy and build a scope sighted AR. We'll see how it and I work at the next 3 gun.

But I still would like to see HM allow me to use the auto shotgun.

[Religious Shooter]

Auto shotguns are legal in HM with the SMM3G version of IMGA.

[Chuck Anderson]

Here's a solution for the people that don't want scoped Heavy Metal. Don't shoot that division. I've never heard so much whining over something that doesn't effect anyone. If you don't want to use an optic...don't. I doubt it's going to have much of an effect on the overwhelming popularity of the Heavy Metal category as it stood. I've been wanting to try heavy metal but my eyes don't do well with irons. And sorry Trapr, but no amount of practice is going to change that fact for me. With the addition of an optic I at least have the option. As far as the Single Stack rules for the pistol, I think that is an extremely poor choice and only serves to limit the pool of potential competitors for what is already a tiny group.

[Odie]

Well, I had some interest in heavy metal 3 gun until I find out that my 10mm G-20 just isn't good enough. So they can keep it.

[Religious Shooter]

Well I think it does affect the existing iron only shooters in that it dilutes the pool of shooters. If there are 10 HM shooters to begin with in all likelihood a certain percentage of those existing shooters will start shooting HM Tactical.

But there are a number of shooters who don't want to shoot HM Iron but will shoot HM Optic... those 10 HM shooters will increase to say 15. It's a trade off. More HM shooters overall but at the expense of the dilution of HM Iron.

I think HM Tactical and making HM a division is "two steps forward."

But with 8-rd SS only pistol in HM being "three steps back."

With 360 power factor in rifle being a stumble. (Can't we just stick with 320?)

[mpeltier]

I shot Heavy metal at the 2006 A-6 3-gun and because it was a catagorie of Limited almost changed to Tactical. I did not like it bieng a catagorie and at 2007 A-6 I shot Tactical. For 2008 I will probably switch back to HM with these changes. These changes are provisional, and refinements are bound to be made. I shoot a SS.45 but dont like the limitation of SS pistol either, it hurts no one to allow any .45 to play. As far as optics go, why not, it will be a good test this year to see how the split between optic and irons in HM will be. I hope the biggest dilution is drawn from Tactical and to a lesser degree Limited divisions. That end of the pool is very crowded.

[kurtm]

I guess I was one of the original "metal men" I ran an M-14 for years, and would have continued on with it EXCET the original "he man" rules were changed to Pump shotgun a short 1 year after He-man,s inception, and I don't like to use pumps, so I went to Limited. I really don't know where the S.S. thing came from. This was never ment to be a "retro" division. Someone isn't listening to the people who shoot HM. The two points I am tring to make are 1.) If you don't like the division find something you like and go do that. 2.) If you don't listen to your customers you won't have any customers.

As for optics, the vast majority of HM shooters say no, and I agree...after all they shoot it! Do I think optics should be allowed? Yes, heck even the orriginal He-Man wanted to have optics, but the customers say IRON so it has remained IRON...now what USPSA does, doesn't define a "division" anymore than IMGA does, but the people who put on the matches really should listen to what the customer wants, and it all points twards the almost orriginal rules as run by RM3G, The Lambathon, and SMM3G under Dan Furby. Major iron rifle, 10 round .45 of any kind, and pump shotgun. KurtM

[Jim Norman]

Kurt,

I agree except that I do believe that an OPTIC division for HM is a good thing. I am 100% behind .45 and pump. I;ll go with round count limits of 10+1 pistol, 8+1 SG and 20 in mag for rifle. I have had to switch to optics in the last couple years as my eyes have gotten worse. I CAN see my front sight with my shooting glasses so Pistol with iron is OK, the targets are close enough to see, even if they are very very blurred. With rifle, if I can see the sights, the targets are essentially invisible.

Why should all of us that have a similar problem, but still have enough money to buy .308 ammo be kept out?

Jim

[bigbrowndog]

Lawman, you're just not practicing your eyeballs enough

My opinions are based on the fact that dilution of an existing class/division is not a good thing, and until matches can accept MORE shooters, that is what you will have. You will not get more shooters in more divisions without allowing more shooters into your matches. We as people generally tend to be LAZY, and when you make things easier, that is what the majority will focus on, The break off of Tactical division is a perfect example, everyone was shooting open or limited, those were your choices take it or leave it, then an one optic was allowed on your rifle and a new division was born. Numbers when down on limited, and on open. Those shooters that were competing in limited, had been doing so for years, then all of a sudden they were allowed to have things EASIER. The vast majority went to an optic on the rifle. and people have started talking about doing away with limited because of the lack of participation?????????

Easier is what MOST people gravitate too, personally those of us shooting limited and HM, DON'T

Sorry, work interfered with my posting....................

As for shooting irons, bad eyesight can normally be corrected, I know of one "decent" iron sight shooter that wears corrective lenses, and practices, and he does pretty well, occassionally. I do not have perfect eyesight and only do OK, on rifle long range stages. work is interfering again.

Edited February 23, 2008 by bigbrowndog

[Chuck Anderson]

First to Kurt's argument. Saying that the vast majority of shooters in an Iron sight only division like iron sights is a little bit of a backwards argument. Of course they shoot Irons. There isn't really anyway to know what percentage of potential HM shooters would like to shoot Optics because there really hasn't been a good test bed.

Second to Trapr's argument. Show me a USPSA 3-Gun Nationals that has filled up...ever. Until that is the case there is plenty of room for both divisions. According to Kurt, the huge majority of HM shooters want to shoot Iron anyway so I'm sure there will only be one or two poor suckers with an optic on their HM rifle. I tend to agree with you on the part about shooters liking things easier. I don't necessarily think that is the reason that Tactical became so big in USPSA. I think it has more to do with it being a more practical divison and that is what people tend to use on their rifles. For example, look at current military rifles. If shooters wanted things to be easiest, why wouldn't everyone shoot open with the easy shotgun load and no pistol reloading?

As for practicing my eyeballs enough, ain't gonna happen. I was a guinea pig for LASIK when it was still experimental and have a wrinkle in my cornea. I can't practice that away and it makes it difficult to engage rifle targets at distance with irons. I know that is an oddball situation and not what the division was created for. But I also know that as a lot of folks get older and need to wear bifocals, etc. using iron sights on a rifle gets very difficult.

One of two things is going to happen. The people who shoot HM will all stick to Irons and there will be no change. Or they will switch to optics and the divisions existence will be validated.

[bigbrowndog]

Ok, back again............where was I?

On long range rifle stages, I try and hold my own, and use the other 2 guns to even up the compeition. But IMO, saying that its easier to do something so lets do it that way, is like a slap in the face to all the folks that have put in the time and effort to overcome their own shortcomings, in order to do well. KellyN, has time and again said that old eyes does not mean you have to settle for a so so performance.

But you do have to try HARDER.

There are a other divisions to shoot in if you want EASIER!!!!

Trapr