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USPSA Multigun Rules 2008


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Fellow Heavy Metalists,

In reading though the USPSA web posted provisional addendum to the multigun rules dated 10/12/2007

it looks like Heavy Metal has TWO DIVISIONS!

This is what I got out of it.

Both HM Limited and HM Tactical will use Single Stack division compliant 45 ACP's 8+1 Only. 12 gauge 8+1 pump Only.

Iron sight 20 round 308 rifle (Heavy Metal Limited) or Single optic 20 round 308 rifle (Heavy Metal Tactical) BOTH 360 PF!

It is what it is, I just found myself ignorant of this and I thought some of you may find this noteworthy.

At least we are now recognized as a Division!!!!...... or TWO.

If anyone re-reads the USPSA rule info and finds a hole in my thinking PLEASE let me/us know!

Patrick

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I don't care for this. HM was, IMO, supposed to be "old school" high PF with iron sights. I can't see any better than the next middle aged guy but I flail with my irons.

Is the pistol requirement clear? It doesn't say only SS compliant pistols are acceptable. I believe that is what they meant but I am not sure. It looks like the my XD is out-I'll have to shoot the CQB.

Dave

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Under the heading (iii) Competition Divisions subsection (iii)b "Any Single Stack in 45ACP that meets the SS rules allowed"

I would rather use my G21 but, thems the rules.

I am happy we have a division, I too wish it was only one with Iron ONLY rifles. We keep slicing the pie into smaller pieces.

Any major 3 gun matches on your calendar Dale?

Patrick

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I have yet to see the reasoning used to create more division????????? It is not going to generate more people at the match, when the match is capped at so many applications.

I'm also with you on the pistol, Pat. I'd prefer it to just be 45ACP, any flavor, 10rds.

Trapr

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I just spoke with Gary Stevens and he confirmed the pistol must meet single stack rules and must be a .45 ACP (and make major, of course).

That clears it up for me.

Pat-Ky State Multigun will be the largest 3 gun I shoot this year.

Dave

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Absolutely ridiculous IMHO! I can't believe that USPSA would actually split up HM :blink:

Aren't we being forced enough PC crap in our society? Who are we trying to accommodate with this change? I understand the fact that there are a lot of ways to "skin a cat" but WTF? I don't even know how many divisions you could shoot at a USPSA 3-gun match anymore. Where's Kyle with his bottom line rules and practicality? I sure do miss his matches...and never once complained about the way he ran them! At least you knew from the get go exactly what you were getting into!

Edited by Unleashed
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Allow me to weigh in here and explain (IMO) why HM is 2 divisions. First remember the rules are still PROVISIONAL. Since the inception of HM I have clearly heard one thing consistantly, "I would shoot HM if it was a division" and I have always believed HM needed to be a division. Our hope has always been to hopefilly unify the rules for multigun with regards to equipment. Every major match having different equipment rules does not help the sport grow. USPSA is in the business of promoting the practical shooting sports. The best way to do that is to offer what shooters want. There are a lot of shooters who want an optic on their HM rifles. All you have to do is look what happened when Tactical was created. I think the same thing will happen in HM. A lot of tactical shooters are going to move to HM. The Johnson 3gun offers a HM tactical division now. Why, because there is a demand. I agree that we have a tendancy to have too many dvisions in USPSA. The way I see it going is we are going to eventually make Iron sights a catagory under tactical and HM tactical. If we want the sport to grow we need to offer what people want. Why do you think time plus scoring is in our rules now?

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Thank you and the BOD for your work.

USPSA is in the business of promoting the practical shooting sports. The best way to do that is to offer what shooters want. There are a lot of shooters who want an optic on their HM rifles. All you have to do is look what happened when Tactical was created. I think the same thing will happen in HM. A lot of tactical shooters are going to move to HM. The Johnson 3gun offers a HM tactical division now. Why, because there is a demand. I agree that we have a tendancy to have too many dvisions in USPSA. The way I see it going is we are going to eventually make Iron sights a catagory under tactical and HM tactical. If we want the sport to grow we need to offer what people want. Why do you think time plus scoring is in our rules now?

I put up a couple of polls concerning the equipment for HM last year:

HM Pistol Poll

HM Rifle Poll

HM Shotgun Poll

Please note that as of right now the voters prefer:

Pistol to be 10+1 over 8+1 - 61.5% (add all the votes for 10+1 and divided by the total votes)

"No Restriction on Gun and Frame Type." 79% (overwhelming choice).

Iron only on rifle - 66.67%.

Of the people who wanted a PF for rifle: 38 want 320 and 12 want 360 ==> 76% want 320 PF.

Please take this into consideration for next year's rules.

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Don't like it and I don't even shoot HM. I'm like the rest of the guys. There is a reason for the .45, .30 rifle, and pump its old school and irons are old school. If people want to shoot their .308 with a scope hell, shoot major in tactical.

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I'm really starting to like IPSC.................Standard, Open, and Standard Manual.

If you want to shoot MAJOR rifle then just make Power factor and do it!!!!!!!!

They don't need to make a NEW DIVISION.

Quit trying to accomodate, and keep things simple.

Trapr

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I guess I just dont see how this hurts anyone...if it does please tell me!

It will allow some folks to shoot in HM..that cant see well enough to shoot irons.

And it complicates scoring some...but no biggie

what is the big down side that has folks upset?

Jim

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I'm really starting to like IPSC.................Standard, Open, and Standard Manual.

If you want to shoot MAJOR rifle then just make Power factor and do it!!!!!!!!

Two things...

1) IPSC doesn't do multigun, so that's a non-starter. And

2) what you describe is the way the USPSA divisions were until recently... and all we heard was that USPSA needed to add a separate division for HM, because "just shooting major" in the existing divisions - and/or recognizing HM as a category - was not enough recognition for the HM community.

So... I'm confused. I *thought* we were doing what the HM shooters were asking for.

Bruce

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I believe there must have been enough hue and cry from shooters who wanted to shoot HM, but either could not, or didn't want to shoot irons on their rifles.

It's not like they're doing away with the old HM rules which require irons on the rifle, it's still there, it's called "Heavy Metal Limited". The new category will likely serve to swell the ranks of those shooting a major caliber rifle at USPSA multi-gun matches.

I rolled my eyes when they introduced "production" "limited 10" "single stack" etc to the pistol match categories, but now that they've been in existance for a few years, they seem to have attracted quite a following (at the matches I see anyway) and have likely attracted a lot of new shooters to the game. Maybe providing an avenue for a shooter to shoot a major caliber rifle with an optic will do the same thing for multigun, albeit to a probable lesser degree.

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The reference to IPSC was due to the SIMPLICITY of what they offer. As for USPSA offering multi gun, from what I've seen thus far its like Tobacco companies saying they offer(Never mind, I think I'll take Helmut's post and use it here).

Also I was not one of the complainers about HM needing its own division in USPSA, As for "All we heard" was HM needing its own division, OK................ why does it require an Optic brother, in order for that to happen?

Trapr

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I'm really starting to like IPSC.................Standard, Open, and Standard Manual.

If you want to shoot MAJOR rifle then just make Power factor and do it!!!!!!!!

Two things...

1) IPSC doesn't do multigun, so that's a non-starter. And

2) what you describe is the way the USPSA divisions were until recently... and all we heard was that USPSA needed to add a separate division for HM, because "just shooting major" in the existing divisions - and/or recognizing HM as a category - was not enough recognition for the HM community.

So... I'm confused. I *thought* we were doing what the HM shooters were asking for.

Bruce

First off I want to thank Bruce and all those involved in getting Heavy Metal recognized as a DIVISION!

I don't know how much of a community there is other than a few die hards in HM I think people try it for a while and then bail.

It IS a little tougher dealing with the added stress of limited capacity, iron sights, manual action non-recoil-mitigating

shotguns and full power ammunition. Especially if you are no more than a category.

Since I penned the piece (inspired by the original Heavy Metalist "Eddie Rhoads") promoting Heavy Metal in Front Sight magazine

I have "walked the talk" in the following matches in hopes of holding up my end of the effort.

2005 Superstition MM 3 Gun

2005 Rocky Mountain 3 Gun

2005 Courage Classic (Limited / HM)

2005 Ephrata Sportsmen Spring Multi-gun (Limited / HM)

2006 USPSA Area 1 Multigun Championship (Limited / HM)

2006 DPMS Tri-Gun Challenge

2006 Ephrata Sportsmen Spring Multi-gun (Limited / HM)

2007 Mid-West 3 Gun

2007 Courage Classic(Limited / HM)

2007 Ephrata Sportsmen Spring Multi-gun (Limited / HM)

2007 DPMS Tri-Gun Challenge

2007 USPSA Area 1 Multigun Championship (Limited / HM)

2007 USPSA Multigun National Championships (9th Limited / 1st HM)

And at least a dozen other smaller matches.

I still feel that HM should have been ONE division restricted to IRON's ONLY.

Major PF optic rifles already HAVE a place in Tactical.

But I will not look this gift horse in the mouth, so again thank you!

Patrick

FWIW I won every match listed EXCEPT the SMM3G

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I agree 99% with Pat Kelly. I have shot HM and Trooper, generally I shoot Tactical. One reason is that my eyesight is such that long shots without optics are simply becoming impossible. I am sure that there are many others out there that like me like real rifles, but without a scope all we are doing is throwing lead down range. As for shooting a .308 in Tactical the point difference is just not significant enough to make up for the time differnce. I am sure that there are likely a few people out there that can run an M1A or an AR10 in Tactical and stay close to a .223 gun, but they are not common.

Limited, Tactical, Open HM-Limited HM-Tactical and Trooper divisions. That is 5 divisions in Multi-Gun. I think that this is sufficent and as others have said, no one need recognize all divisions at any particular match.

Now if we could figure out a way to make Time scoring work as well as Comstock we'd have it made.

Jim

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This may be a thread drift.................

I was on the first committee that decided to "birth" if you will " He-Man" class, at the dinner table in Pueblo at Applebees.

This was to do something new and try a new class out with some Big Guns-We knew that there were people that had these MAJOR blasters in the safe and wanted to give them a reason to use them.

The class was a hit and the idea was well liked, and we were NOT the first organization to use it-A well respected retired ARMY dude did in 2003 adopted the class for his famous 3-Gun Match in NC in June and our match was in August-A call was made to the MD and the idea was well liked and it was considered a compliment for the use and permission of our new class in his match, we were flattered.

From there HM took off.

Now I see all these matches making their own rules for HM, single stack, steel frame only, NO polymer pistols and so on-It has been said this new generation of HM rules is leaning twards "Single stacks", why I do not know.

When our rules were built we had a .45 ACP with 10 rounds only, this included anything in the .45 family, steel of polymer-And the year after the .45 GAP was also approved.

SO, what I am getting at is, why all the changes in HM, does USPSA have no creativity?

Why can't they just one class/division and call is quits.

Isn't this where "Tactical Optics" came from?? OH Yeah, they got this idea from SOF.

Don't even get me started on what the NRA is doing, as far as showing interest in 3-GUN-Whats next PPC 3-Gun..........It would probably be all stand and shoot standards.

Later dudes-J

For the record, IRONS ONLY ON RIFLE, AND 10 ROUND MAX IN PISTOLS, SG'S 8+1 PUMP ONLY

Edited by VNGunfighter
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The class was a hit and the idea was well liked, and we were NOT the first organization to use it-A well respected retired ARMY dude did in 2003 adopted the class for his famous 3-Gun Match in NC in June and our match was in August-A call was made to the MD and the idea was well liked and it was considered a compliment for the use and permission of our new class in his match, we were flattered.

Good memory Jimmy. I remember who won "heavy metal" at thet one: Mr. Cramblit. I remember because he shot my AR-10 and it had a scope on it. The only reason he won is because some dude with the initials KN was shooting wimpy .260 loads in his FNFAL if my memory serves............. <_<

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HM having/being its own division is nice. It'd be nicer if there was a meaningful difference in major/ minor rifle scoring. If there was, then someone shooting major optics could be competitive in tactical and there would be no cry for HM optics. Think about it, in pistol the difference between major and minor is the difference between 125 and 165. In rifle it is between 150 and 360. A difference of almost double.

I would have preferred irons only too, but it is what it is. Being the skinflint I am though, its not the all inclusive rules that make the division unattractive, its the near half again cost of rifle and pistol ammo to shoot a match.

Perhaps some of the MDs will consider scoring time plus similar to FT Benning, or some sort of Paladin system so cheapskates such as myself can CHOOSE how many rounds to engage a target with. It'd be more like "freestyle baby", eh?

Mike

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I think the added division answers the power factor situation that is looming out their.

The only USPSA match I shoot is the Multi Gun Nationals.

For those who want to shoot all Major this is your chance.

I’ll probably stick with what I shoot the most. Tactical.

I don’t think I’ll change my mind,, but you never know.

Jim M ammo

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I just spoke with Gary Stevens and he confirmed the pistol must meet single stack rules and must be a .45 ACP (and make major, of course).

That clears it up for me.

Pat-Ky State Multigun will be the largest 3 gun I shoot this year.

Dave

I just read the rule, and it states that any gun that is SS compliant is OK, but it doesn't say that "only" SS compliant guns are allowed.

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If HM is going to be a division in MG, is it also going to be a division in 3gun, or does it remain an optional catagory? If it's an optional catagory, is the PF 320 or 340? Sure glad someone decided to standardize all this, it's much easier to figure out now.

The old 308 iron 20 + 1, 12 ga pump iron 8 + 1, .45 iron 8+1, everything USPSA major was just so confusing!!

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