G-ManBart Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I wasn't involved in this, but it came up in discussion....so here's the scenario. You're squad has been shooting a stage and you have a pretty good idea of what your time should be assuming things go okay. The other shooters are people you know well and can roughly gauge your performance against so you have a pretty good idea of what to expect. You shoot the stage and at unload and show clear your ejected round hits the timer. The RO calls the range clear and then announces a time that's quite a bit off what you expect.....say you were expecting a 15 second run and the RO says it's 20.00. You ask the RO to check the timer to look for the delayed "shot" where the round hit the timer. Can the RO deny your request to review what the timer recorded? It seems pretty obvious that if the round hit the timer and recorded an extra "shot" it's going to be very noticable...like a several second gap right before the last "shot" when there was no large gap when you were actually shooting. What's the call here? In the actual case, the RO said no and that was that. I couldn't find anything in the rules about it, but it seems wrong for an RO to deny something so simple as a quick review that would show an obvious error. If the RO has the option of reviewing the timer to check the number of shots when they suspect it didn't pick up the last shot (or shots), why shouldn't the shooter have the right to request a similar review for accuracy when he/she feels it would be in their favor to do so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I'll have to relate a similar story that happened to me when I first started shooting this sport I was shooting a state championship..and we were the first squad on the stage..the first four shooters shoot the stage in about 18+ to 21 seconds.. when I shot it..I shot it in a high 12 seconds...the CRO declared not all the shots were picked up and to tape the targets.. I asked him to review the timer to see if all the shots were there..He would not.. I yelled and ranted and tried to get them to call the MD..before they taped targets..but didn't win out..the targets got taped.. on my reshoot I shot it faster.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Abrahams Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 just out of curiosity...i thought the RO was supposed to have the timer behind thier back during unload and show clear, hammer down etc...??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 18, 2008 Author Share Posted February 18, 2008 I'll have to relate a similar story that happened to me when I first started shooting this sportI was shooting a state championship..and we were the first squad on the stage..the first four shooters shoot the stage in about 18+ to 21 seconds.. when I shot it..I shot it in a high 12 seconds...the CRO declared not all the shots were picked up and to tape the targets.. I asked him to review the timer to see if all the shots were there..He would not.. I yelled and ranted and tried to get them to call the MD..before they taped targets..but didn't win out..the targets got taped.. on my reshoot I shot it faster.. Now THAT is justice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Nothing in the rules say the RO must show you the timer, but if you disagree you can always arbitrate it I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann the Horrible Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 What normally happens is that the timer gets banged against something(like a mag) as it get put behind the RO`s back. (Especially at level one`s were the RO`s are also competitors. I had to take a +/- 10second hit because of one. Maybe if it is as rife as it now seems to be there aught to be a rule about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 It always amazes me how many ROs shove the timer behind their backs and haven't got a clue about what the final reading should be. The easy solution and good practice is to ensure that the timer is angled towards the RO for the last shot. It is very easy to see the time of the last shot fired and make a quick metal note, even if only to 1 decimal point. After the unload-show clear, when subsequently recording the score, the RO simply verifies that the time displayed is the same as the one remembered. If it isn't and it is higher then the timer has picked up an extra shot, or has been bumped. It is then that the RO steps through the timed shots until the one viewed in conjunction with the last shot is displayed. Certainly we are not getting errors every time, far from it, but I personally believe it happens often enough and the biggest worry is that the ROs concerned haven't got a clue that there is an error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 It always amazes me how many ROs shove the timer behind their backs and haven't got a clue about what the final reading should be.The easy solution and good practice is to ensure that the timer is angled towards the RO for the last shot. It is very easy to see the time of the last shot fired and make a quick metal note, even if only to 1 decimal point. After the unload-show clear, when subsequently recording the score, the RO simply verifies that the time displayed is the same as the one remembered. If it isn't and it is higher then the timer has picked up an extra shot, or has been bumped. It is then that the RO steps through the timed shots until the one viewed in conjunction with the last shot is displayed. Certainly we are not getting errors every time, far from it, but I personally believe it happens often enough and the biggest worry is that the ROs concerned haven't got a clue that there is an error. I'll second Neil, and also state that there is no valid reason an RO shouldn't review the timer on request, although it isn't specified in the rulebook. It's the right thing to do, and what could it possibly hurt? If you, as the RO, aren't aware that something is amiss, and worse--aren't willing to do a simple check, you simply aren't doing your job. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 When I run the timer I always glance at the time as the shooter is finished. I have an excellent memory for numbers so it is easy to verify. I have heard of situations of a RO clicking the metal clip which does scare me a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm3gnr Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I as well make a quit mental note of the time on a timer. As I move the timer away and behind me, I give the range commands. Then once the range is clear I call out the time for the scorkeeper. I agree with Mactiger. If the shooter thinks there might be an error, it does not hurt to take a look. I was at a big match, and on my last shot, the ejected case hit the timer. The RO did a great job by letting me know what had happened and that he was going to review the timer and find that last hit. He stated also that he had noticed that I had no extra shots on the stage. It took a few seconds to find it and cut something like .45-.60 seconds off my run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 (edited) I disagree with the statement "It is not specified in the rule book." 9.6.1 After the Range Officer has declared “Range is Clear”, the competitor or their delegate will be allowed to accompany the official responsible for scoring to verify the scoring. Since your score is your points divided by your time the statement "to verify the scoring" gives the shooter the right to review the timer. Edited February 18, 2008 by Bigbadaboom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I disagree with the staement "It is not specified in the rule book."9.6.1 After the Range Officer has declared “Range is Clear”, the competitor or their delegate will be allowed to accompany the official responsible for scoring to verify the scoring. Since your score is your points devided by your time the statement "to verify the scoring" gives the shooter the right to review the timer. +1 Why wouldn't you look back for the shooter. I will look back for time to first shot, splits, reload or whatever else the shooter wants to see. We are all trying to improve and knowing what you can do on match day is a good tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann the Horrible Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Now I am intrigued! Would the moderators be interested in running a poll about how many shooters feel they have been screwed by times upsets. I for one feel that a few times that the timer was NOT my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Bart, what a knucklehead! As an RO I'm responsible for ensuring that the stage is scored correctly -- so why wouldn't I be willing to take a look? It's my job..... I'm also a big believer in holding the timer so that the display faces you --- that way I can ensure out of peripheral vision that the time is changing for shots in the final position, and know that I have the last shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Bart,what a knucklehead! As an RO I'm responsible for ensuring that the stage is scored correctly -- so why wouldn't I be willing to take a look? It's my job..... I'm also a big believer in holding the timer so that the display faces you --- that way I can ensure out of peripheral vision that the time is changing for shots in the final position, and know that I have the last shot. Absolutely agree on both points! I once missed a couple of shots with a timer when a shooter stuck his gun through a port on the last array of a stage. I guess it wasn't sensitive enough to pick up the shots from over the wall. His time was incredibly quick and when I discovered why I made it a personal policy from then on to watch the last few shots being recorded. As for not making the effort to review the time with the shooter when there's a question about the acuracy of the display, that's just plain lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 shooting in HI sometimes the stages were close together and would pick up shots from other stages. We allways just put a little effort into it. Either the RO holds it up so the scorekeeper can see the last shot time. Personally I dont ever feel I got a bad time. Any time there was a question the RO counted shots without the shooter asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I've had this happen 4 times. 2 times I didn't have it replayed because I was the first shooter and it bit me in the ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozarksman Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 This actually happened to a friend several years ago at Area 4. I think it was the 1st year that L-10 was a division since my friend shot it. On a stage near the end of the match when he yanked back his slide to show clear, the bullet lifted out and lnaded squarely on the RO's timer. Several of us saw it and expected the RO to review the time, but he called out what he saw displayed. The shooter asked him about it and the answer was the timer was correct and that was the time he was getting. The RO wasn't nasty about his reply but wasn't going to review the timer for any problems either. Sad to say, we all knew it cost the shooter several seconds on this stage. At that time, we were all pretty green shooters and just accepted the RO's decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I can not even begin to comprehend why an RO would deny a review of the timer. Heck, I have even reviewed the timer (when ROing at the local level) with a competitor as a teaching tool. Of course, I only do that when time allows. I wonder if there is an NROI ruling on reviewing the timer as part of the verification of the scoring process as others have noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Abrahams Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 anyone know if you can ask the RO before starting the stage, that when you are finished to tell you the time before unload and show clear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 anyone know if you can ask the RO before starting the stage, that when you are finished to tell you the time before unload and show clear? You can ask --- but all you're going to hear from will probably be range commands. That's largely due to the fact that I'm still watching the gun, and if you decide to take another shot, we'll have a new time..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 anyone know if you can ask the RO before starting the stage, that when you are finished to tell you the time before unload and show clear? A good RO would wait til "Range is Clear" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 anyone know if you can ask the RO before starting the stage, that when you are finished to tell you the time before unload and show clear? A good RO would wait til "Range is Clear" Agreed. Until that gun is clear and in the holster I ain't got nothing to say other than range commands. This has been a good thread though and I intend to start doing a quick glass after last shot. I have always been cautious with the timer to prevent or watch for contact. It comes from practicing with one so much. I found when I pulled it off the belt the clip would snap and cause another shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillM Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Have to laugh at myself about the RO reviewing the timer with the shooter. Yesterday, for the first time I shot a match with a brand new open gun [from JPL, which ran flawlessly btw, thanks John]. On the first stage, I mentally reviewed what I was going to do and at the beep drew and indexed perfectly on the target and....the RO told me later that it only took me 4.5 seconds to turn on the Cmore!! Thanks Joda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I have heard of situations of a RO clicking the metal clip which does scare me a bit. I've never seen this, or for that matter even heard of an RO that would do such a thing. But if it does happen, the tolerance should be zero. An RO that would stoop that low deserves to be drummed out, permanently. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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