Is the Saiga 12 the new choice for 3 gun open division?

[38superman]

Please excuse a slight thread drift.

I don't own a Saiga but do own a USAS-12.

The Saiga is based on the AK-47 and the USAS on the M-16/AR-15.

I have been tempted to try the USAS in 3-gun open competition.

I haven't done so because of the weight of the gun.

It would have been so much better with an aluminum receiver.

However, it does have some distinct advantages.

It would be quicker to reload and magazines are fed straight in as on the AR-15

There are 10 round mags and a 20 round drum available.

It would also be more portable in tight spots as it is much shorter overall than a tube fed shotgun.

If you can tolerate the weight it might be viable for competition.

The biggest problem is availability.

They are hard to find and expensive.

One thing for sure.

It's great fun to shoot.

One more thing.

I had to get a federal license for a destructive device for this gun.

Does that apply to the Saiga?

If so, anyone thinking of going to the Saiga needs to be aware of the special requirements for licensing an NFA weapon.

Tony

Edited March 14, 2008 by 38superman

[lynn jones]

Please excuse a slight thread drift.

I don't own a Saiga but do own a USAS-12.

The Saiga is based on the AK-47 and the USAS on the M-16/AR-15.

I have been tempted to try the USAS in 3-gun open competition.

I haven't done so because of the weight of the gun.

It would have been so much better with an aluminum receiver.

However, it does have some distinct advantages.

It would be quicker to reload and magazines are fed straight in as on the AR-15

There are 10 round mags and a 20 round drum available.

It would also be more portable in tight spots as it is much shorter overall than a tube fed shotgun.

If you can tolerate the weight it might be viable for competition.

The biggest problem is availability.

They are hard to find and expensive.

One thing for sure.

It's great fun to shoot.

One more thing.

I had to get a federal license for a destructive device for this gun.

Does that apply to the Saiga?

If so, anyone thinking of going to the Saiga needs to be aware of the special requirements for licensing an NFA weapon.

Tony

tony,

you probably bought that gun before the ban was lifted.

or is it full auto?

lynn

Edited March 14, 2008 by lynn jones

[shred]

The "Destructive Device" ruling on the USAS and SPAS and Street Sweeper wasn't part of the AWB. It was a separate "this is over .50 cal and not suitable for sporting purposes" declaration which is at the whim of the ATF and Attorney General Treasury Secretary. Saigas could easily get caught up the next time around.

In early 1994, ATF decided (in ATF Rulings 94-1 and 94-2) that three 12 gauge shotgun models, the USAS 12, Striker 12, and Street Sweeper, were destructive devices, owing to their non-sporting character, and having a bore over 1/2 inch, as all 12 gauge shotguns do. ATF required owners of these guns to register them, as NFA weapons.

[SinistralRifleman]

Match results from last weekend:

http://www.riopractical.com/text/rs.htm

Stages 2 and 4 are shotgun.

Stage 2 Was 18 rounds IIRC, Stage 4 12. The higher the round count the more advantage the Saiga has.

Edited March 14, 2008 by SinistralRifleman

[Chuck Anderson]

I would put money on the Saiga being ruled a DD soon. Especially since there are now 20 round drums available. Essentially it is the same as the USAS 12

[SinistralRifleman]

I would put money on the Saiga being ruled a DD soon. Especially since there are now 20 round drums available. Essentially it is the same as the USAS 12

Shotguns can only be declared DD by manufacturer and model #. The Saiga-12 is imported in a sporting (hunting configuration)...where as those others that were declared DDs were never made in anything close to a sporting configuration. The manufacturer/importer can't be responsible for accessories that others make after the fact. Not saying it's impossible, just less likely.

Edited March 14, 2008 by SinistralRifleman

[38superman]

Lynn,

This shotgun wasn't banned or restricted by any act of congress.

It was simply declared a DD by the Treasury Dept under the Clinton administration.

If it can happen to the USAS it can happen to the Saiga.

Shortly after the ruling, I inquired about grandfather status to the BATF.

They responded with a decidedly threatening letter.

If I didn't get it properly registered within 60 days, I would face a $100,000 fine and/or 10 years in prison.

However, they were kind enough to waive the $200 license fee.

I wrote them back and pointed out that I approached them.

I voluntarily took that initiative because I wanted to stay in compliance with the law.

Under those circumstances, threating me with prosecution is conduct unbecoming of the United States Government.

The exact language was a little too salty for this forum.

Before getting mired in regulatory discussion, I would like to hear from anyone that is familiar with a USAS as to whether you think it's viable for competition.

Tony

Edited March 14, 2008 by 38superman

[SinistralRifleman]

And just for clarity...The Gun Control Act of 1968 established the "sporting purposes" language, and defined destructive devices as any gun with a bore over 1/2" except for shotguns suitable for sporting purposes. There is no list of features or criteria, the Secretary can arbitrarily declare any shotgun to be non-sporting and thus a DD.

The US Government (well the parts that regulate this stuff anyway) does not consider USPSA, IPSC, 3 Gun, etc to be a legitimate sporting purpose. All of our sports are considered to be "combat games" to them. The only way we'll ever see it considered a "sporting purpose" is if the games are incorporated into the Olympics...then maybe, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Wakal]

The USAS runs fine for competition. It is heavy and has about half of the cycle speed of the Saiga, but does have straight-insert drop-free mags and reliable drums. I ran one for years as part of a Base team.

You can see something similar (with a picture of a really ugly guy) in this month's Front Sight...mislabeled as a Saiga. Fred got mislabeled (in the same article) as Steve, so it could have been worse

Alex

[KentG]

I would put money on the Saiga being ruled a DD soon. Especially since there are now 20 round drums available. Essentially it is the same as the USAS 12

I hate to say it, but it almost sounds like some of us support gun control.

[el pres]

I know its been hashed out but I cant help myself..

I cant find the part of the second amendment that mentions "hunting" or "sporting" ????

Is that in "another" bill, please help, I tried a search but nothing ???

[Chuck Anderson]

I would put money on the Saiga being ruled a DD soon. Especially since there are now 20 round drums available. Essentially it is the same as the USAS 12

I hate to say it, but it almost sounds like some of us support gun control.

I had a really wise ass response to this but it bordered on a political commentary. Fact is there is not really much of a difference between a gun which was declared as a destructive device that is a semi-auto 12 ga with a pistol grip, and 10 round box mags and a 20 round drum, and a Saiga with a pistol grip stock, a 10 round box mag and a 20 round drum. If you can't figure that out and seem to think that makes me in support of gun control, I'm sorry.

[Carlos]

38 Superman wrote (concerning his registered D.D. shotgun):

"This shotgun wasn't banned or restricted by any act of congress.

It was simply declared a DD by the Treasury Dept under the Clinton administration.

If it can happen to the USAS it can happen to the Saiga."

And just for clarity...The Gun Control Act of 1968 established the "sporting purposes" language, and defined destructive devices as any gun with a bore over 1/2" except for shotguns suitable for sporting purposes. There is no list of features or criteria, the Secretary can arbitrarily declare any shotgun to be non-sporting and thus a DD.

The US Government (well the parts that regulate this stuff anyway) does not consider USPSA, IPSC, 3 Gun, etc to be a legitimate sporting purpose. All of our sports are considered to be "combat games" to them. The only way we'll ever see it considered a "sporting purpose" is if the games are incorporated into the Olympics...then maybe, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

That is correct. There is NOTHING stopping this administration (or the NEXT administration) from turning all your shotguns into "Class III" weapons (like machineguns & silencers). In the case of the USAS-12, they were very kind to us: the waived the $200 transfer tax (one time only) and did not require the guns to be turned in for destruction.

If they decide to add more firearms to the NFA Registry (i.e. - make them "Class III") they CAN do so on a whim and there is virtually NOTHING you will be able to do to stop them; your representatives in congress have no say whatsoever regarding Treasury Department (now DOJ) rulings of this type.

On top of that, there is no individual right to own firearms in the Constitutuion currently. Of the 13 Federal Courts of Appeals, (the ones who actually interpret laws) 11 have found there is no individual right to own a gun, and one of two who think you do have a right is D.C., where most guns are banned. Believe what you want, your opinion is meaningless because its the Federal circuits who determine the law.

NOW you see why the Supreme Court case of D.C. v. Heller (to be argued on Tuesday) is so important. The decision is due out in June or July.

Regards,

CBR.

[Topmaul]

The DD question is very a dead horse if it happens it happens there is nothing I for one can do about it. So Why worry?

The Saiga is imported as a sporting arm, not so with other DD shotguns they left the factory in the DD configuration if the Federal Government starts saying that you can not modify your weapons we are all in a serious world of dukie. There is a huge differance between the way the Saiga is looked at because of its factory configuration and the other so called DDs.

Any CFR change aimed limiting modifications to a fire arm will affect everyone.

[KentG]

I would put money on the Saiga being ruled a DD soon. Especially since there are now 20 round drums available. Essentially it is the same as the USAS 12

I hate to say it, but it almost sounds like some of us support gun control.

I had a really wise ass response to this but it bordered on a political commentary. Fact is there is not really much of a difference between a gun which was declared as a destructive device that is a semi-auto 12 ga with a pistol grip, and 10 round box mags and a 20 round drum, and a Saiga with a pistol grip stock, a 10 round box mag and a 20 round drum. If you can't figure that out and seem to think that makes me in support of gun control, I'm sorry.

You can make any comment you want. Mind over matter.

Once you convince someone that its OK to ban one gun in particular its not a big leap to convince the willing its OK to ban something else.

Maybe we should just shoot single shot break open shotguns, handguns and rifles. No mags allowed EH?? Im sure there are plenty of JBT's to try and confiscate illegal arms.

[el pres]

A dictatorship of 9..??

Lets not give anyone any ideas about the poss. relation of one gun to another...

Repeat after me, they are all sooo unique you cant classify them...

Edited March 14, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[38superman]

Easy now.

I didn't see lawmans post as approval of gun control in any form.

It was just a statement of fact that the Saiga shares some of the same attributes that got the USAS reclassified.

Saying a gun could be reclassified is not the same as saying it should be.

It wasn't my intent to start a politcal firefight.

I only wanted to know if you guys thought the USAS was appropriate for 3-gun duty.

So far only one person has answered that.

Let's not get carried away or you can measure the life expectancy of this thread with an egg timer.

Tls

Edited March 14, 2008 by 38superman

[KentG]

Easy now.

I didn't see lawmans post as approval of gun control in any form.

It was just a statement of fact that the Saiga shares some of the same attributes that got the USAS reclassified.

Saying a gun could be reclassified is not the same as saying it should be.

It wasn't my intent to start a politcal firefight.

I only wanted to know if you guys thought the USAS was appropriate for 3-gun duty.

So far only one person has answered that.

Let's not get carried away or you can measure the life expectancy of this thread with an egg timer.

Tls

You are correct. This thread has shown that there are those who will not consider anything new and will manufatcure any argument needed to maintain status quo.

I like shooting shotguns. All of them. I prefer the Siaga of late for my own reasons. Im done debating this and done with this thread.

[PistolPete]

So then is this the best shotgun for 3 gun open division? ???? HAHA

[benny hill]

Hey, if it goes bang w/0 jamming, it's all good.

[38superman]

So then is this the best shotgun for 3 gun open division? ???? HAHA

I wouldn't dismiss it too quickly.

If someone like Taran begins to play around with it and wins a few matches, I'd say it will gain some instant credibility.

Tls

[Topmaul]

The thing is with a Saiga an unknown shooter can take the big prize!

[zhunter]

I can't believe I just sat and read this whole thread.

You guys remind me of a bunch of gearheads arguing Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge!!!!

Funny, but you also lost the plot and got political at the end of page 5 and most of page 6!!!!

Get back to the shooting info and modifications on what looks to be a gun that has merit.

Being my AR is being constructed as I type, I am reading this with interest

[TonyRumore]

Taran will have his Saiga back from Tromix shortly.

There will be some improvements made over the older Makkos gun.

Tony Rumore

Tromix Corp

[arrowrod]

There is a long learning period on the Saiga. Look at Tony Rumore's post just prior to mine. "Taran will have his Saiga back from Tromix shortly.

There will be some improvements made over the older Makkos gun."

Dean Makkos has had his Saiga for what, two months?

The Saiga has numerous flat surfaces, sharp edges, and a particular nasty constriction leading into the chamber. I usually got to experience these during a match. Over time, I corrected all of them.

The big break though for me was the AGP "Gen-2" magazines. I went from struggling to insert a mag into a closed bolt to 2.5 second shot to aimed shot reloads.

Dean Makkos must of heard of my success, because he hasn't shown up at our local 3-Gun match since I started winning the shotgun stages. (A little bit of humor, Dean beats me like a drum.)

Now I have a magazine well, and have modified the AGP mags to fit. Hit the extended mag release and the mags jump out of the gun. Stuff in a new one, and unlike the AR-15 platform, you get a satisfying "click", signaling the mag is seated.

I know that Tony Rumore and others, particularly Jamshot have done a significant amount of work on porting and muzzle breaks. I asked my gun business friend what research is available to help with recoil reduction. His response, "funny you should ask, there is a paper written in the 50's by a guy in England that is exhaustive". He went on to say, that using the formulas that had been developed by the paper, and measuring a lot of the work of others, it appeared that the apparent "trial and error", work had produced some muzzle breaks that were close to the "algorithms" the paper had developed, but many were not.

None that he was aware of matched exactly.