Is the Saiga 12 the new choice for 3 gun open division?

[Merlin Orr]

Tnek, I think you are being a bit unfair! I only know of about 5 "builders" that do shotguns, and as for the Factory "toads" I haven't seen ANY of them do much for the 3-gun sports ( Remington is a slight exception ). The thing that has kept the Saiga from common use is the ruling that it is a OPEN firearm only, and most folks just DON'T shoot open! I, like Russel, have always thought that they should be allowed into "tactical". The sad fact is that open get about as many shooters as limited at most 3-gun matches, and untill the demand grows you just won't see that many "super gunsmiths" take the time to work on them, but if the demand grows they will be some of the first to do some real cool stuff to them! I am hoping that Trapr and I will be forging the way to the futur by allowing the Saigas into "Tactical and Limited" at the High Plains Shotgun Challenge. There is no reason why they shouldn't be allowed. KurtM

Dont mean to be unfair. I just have my opinion.

Open means open in my book but I cant use the new drums cause there are rules in open that wont allow it. Yet.

Siagas are cheap to buy and build and dont really need a big super smith to build one. But like we all know when the USPSA and its feeder guys can figure out how to make money on them then all will be well.

tnek

You are painting with a pretty broad brush here. Unfairly so....

[Larry White]

Kent, you are makeing it seem that 4 or 5 gunsmiths are controling USPSA 3 gun as far as shotgun goes. In fact USPSA is writing the rules and they dont seem to care what anyone thinks. Remingtion, Winchester and Benelli dont much care if we shoot shotgun or not. As far as the smiths go, the customers drive them, if I was selling every Benelli I could get my hands on I wouldnt worry about Saiga either. When the customer base is there the smiths will be there, til then theres rent to pay and food to buy.-------------Larry

[Neil Beverley]

Yes Neil, it is just a USPSA thing. Open just isn,t open over here! I believe it is a 10+ 1 limit. Most any IPSC open gun wouldn't be Division Legal in USPSA...who said we were freer than you KURTM

Thats to bad amigo, I hope that gets changed before the 2010 match, im sure the drum mags will be in abundance in Germany this July.

By the way I have booked the Hotel in Philippsburg for everyone including you guys, im looking forward to the European tour this summer

N

Neil

The 2010 match is the IPSC Level IV PanAmerican championships and as such will conform to the IPSC rules.

Just a thought guys, please remember that you have a choice of rulebooks. The USPSA is still the authorised Regional body responsible for IPSC shooting in the US. Therefore it is perfectly feasible for any of you to run an IPSC shotgun match (Level I - III). Open will be Open and Standard Division starts with 9 in the gun but after the start signal anything goes. The IPSC shotgun rules really aren't so different as Trapr and Kurt can verify.

Indeed the the USPSA Board is on record in having said they would like to see both USPSA and IPSC matches on the US calendar.

[SinistralRifleman]

Video from this weekend. I could have been a second or two faster if I hadn't gotten lazy about counting shell for when to do a reload.

http://www.cavalryarms.com/vids/Saiga-9.wmv

[Flexmoney]

I'd say...4 seconds faster.

But, who's counting ?

[GTOSHootr]

Video from this weekend. I could have been a second or two faster if I hadn't gotten lazy about counting shell for when to do a reload.

http://www.cavalryarms.com/vids/Saiga-9.wmv

Just curious, you don't load to a closed bolt and rack it once on the reload? A full 10 is tough to rack over but I go with an 8 or 9. I guess using the bolt hold open is easy as a lefty.

[SinistralRifleman]

I've practiced and I can't load on a closed bolt consistently. For every 3 faster reloads, I get one I just mess up badly...so I stick with what works every time.

[dochoc]

I've practiced and I can't load on a closed bolt consistently. For every 3 faster reloads, I get one I just mess up badly...so I stick with what works every time.

Is a lot quicker with the magwell ,as you can always load on a closed bolt,and the old mag drops to the floor while you click the new full mag in.You are going to love the new MD magwell if it works as well as the factory version.

[SinistralRifleman]

I am looking forward to that. Straight in on a closed bolt will be a lot harder to mess up, than rocking in on a closed bolt.

[superfly]

I can load on a closed bolt with my SAIGA and have a smoking 16 round mags that RUN'S 100%

[benny hill]

OTTO!!! I have seen your smoking mag & it aint run right yet or I would'nt beat you every match loading by hand. NO crying either.

[GentlemanJim]

Giggle Giggle

Jim

[superfly]

OK I did beat you on the stage that we had to shooting from the rear seat of the blazer on the Right, left and the center of the windows with the slugs on steel that was 50 yards so HA!!!!!!

quote name='benny hill' date='Feb 29 2008, 10:17 PM' post='714227']

OTTO!!! I have seen your smoking mag & it aint run right yet or I would'nt beat you every match loading by hand. NO crying either.

Edited February 29, 2008 by superfly

[M118LR]

OK I did beat you on the stage that we had to shooting from the rear seat of the blazer on the Right, left and the center of the windows with the slugs on steel that was 50 yards so HA!!!!!!

Superfly out shoots Benny on a stage? Wish I could have seen it.

Superfly, I am going to have to try out the Saiga.

[benny hill]

I think I said MATCH, anyone can find a acorn every now & then on a stage.

[bigbrowndog]

Bring that competitive "spirit" to High Plains Shotgun Challenge. Mark, there are some stages where mag fed could definitely be an advantage. but at the same time it could jump up and bite you.

I have been told that there will be at least one shooter in Tac Auto, with a mag fed SG. this should be interesting!!!!!

Trapr

[philg80]

Matt Burkett does have one! But from what I understand he has only used it out west at MGM multiguns.

When the top dogs like matt burkett and teran butler start to yous that ak -47 then will talk.

[Topmaul]

Don't wait too long to get on the band wagon it might leave the station,

[PistolPete]

I just ordered one yesterday but will have to wait about 3 weeks to get it because they are on backorder. I can't wait to get this puppy and get all the goodies for it. It's going to be so much fun!!!!

[KentG]

Kent, you are makeing it seem that 4 or 5 gunsmiths are controling USPSA 3 gun as far as shotgun goes. In fact USPSA is writing the rules and they dont seem to care what anyone thinks. Remingtion, Winchester and Benelli dont much care if we shoot shotgun or not. As far as the smiths go, the customers drive them, if I was selling every Benelli I could get my hands on I wouldnt worry about Saiga either. When the customer base is there the smiths will be there, til then theres rent to pay and food to buy.-------------Larry

I respectfully disagree. I do agree that what customers want will drive gunsmiths but why does open mean I can use a beta mag for rifle or as many rounds in a handgun based on a mag length cause the rules are interpreted to allow it?

Open class shotgun is the only open class that mandates round capacity I think and I have to ask WHY?? I dont want to deprive the big shotgun smiths of business but this is like car racing. It seems the rules are made to tilt a tad to the favorite sons so to speak.

Let the Saigas run and any other shotgun in any other config and let the market decide.

Id consider it a compromise if the 11 round at start stayed but let me load as many as I can once the buzzer goes off. If not tell me why we dont restricit rifles to 30 or less??

[kurtm]

First off you are confusing USPSA with EVERYONE, this simply isn't true! IMGA rules doesn't restrict OPEN to any round number....NEITHER does IPSC internationally. OPEN is well OPEN!! Blame your president Clinton for this little rule from USPSA. They did this so many people could play in open with LEGAL shotguns durring the 10 years of the 1994 Omnibus Crime bill, better known as the asault weapons ban. USPSA hasn't yet changed it back to ...well...open. So quit tring to polish your dogma about the gunsmiths. They, UNLIKE car racing are MARKET driven, not AGENDA driven as you seem to think. KURTM

[Chuck Anderson]

Stop trying to bring logic to a dogma fight. Everyone knows that Benny is secretly in cahoots with not only the USPSA BOD but the US Gov't as well. Benny holds back shotgun development by playing with the strings that he keeps the BOD attached to. He does so to get the secret bionic implants that the government gets them. Every year or so they fly him in their black helicopters to the massive limestone cavern complex that they keep somewhere in the eastern US. They give him his enhancements and send him back out to impose the government's will on us lowly USPSA shooters. How else could Benny keep beating us younger and gosh darn it, better looking, competitors.

[bigbrowndog]

Actually the 10rd. limit for open, brings up the point that it is much harder to do away with something even if it makes no sense, after it has been in effect.

which is my reasoning for going against a lot of "ideas"people have for wanting to implement certain rules or divisions, etc.

USPSA, does "still" limit Open SG's in capacity,......................WHY????????

because at one time it was a good idea, and people agreed with it, why is it so hard to get it changed, because it is now ingrained into peoples ideas as to what is acceptable.

IMGA and IPSC have handled this subject correctly.

trapr

[jobob]

Stop trying to bring logic to a dogma fight. Everyone knows that Benny is secretly in cahoots with not only the USPSA BOD but the US Gov't as well. Benny holds back shotgun development by playing with the strings that he keeps the BOD attached to. He does so to get the secret bionic implants that the government gets them. Every year or so they fly him in their black helicopters to the massive limestone cavern complex that they keep somewhere in the eastern US. They give him his enhancements and send him back out to impose the government's will on us lowly USPSA shooters. How else could Benny keep beating us younger and gosh darn it, better looking, competitors.

But, you're forgetting where this conspiracy began: Roswell, NM, Area 51!

[KentG]

First off you are confusing USPSA with EVERYONE, this simply isn't true! IMGA rules doesn't restrict OPEN to any round number....NEITHER does IPSC internationally. OPEN is well OPEN!! Blame your president Clinton for this little rule from USPSA. They did this so many people could play in open with LEGAL shotguns durring the 10 years of the 1994 Omnibus Crime bill, better known as the asault weapons ban. USPSA hasn't yet changed it back to ...well...open. So quit tring to polish your dogma about the gunsmiths. They, UNLIKE car racing are MARKET driven, not AGENDA driven as you seem to think. KURTM

Im really tired of trying to overthink why its like it is. The limited number of clubs I shoot at go by USPSA rules not IMGA. Wish they did and I suppose this would not matter from what I know of IMG rules.

I dont go back far enough in the sport to know exactly what the rules were/are that deal with the legal issues you are refering to. I wish I did and if you could elaborate on exactly why it is that this came to be I would be happy to be enlightened. Also Im curious to why you feel that the USPSA hasnt changed those rules back if it was driven by the AWB?

You seem to be pissed at me for having my opinion and thats fine,, I still feel that there are those who have a vested intrest in not seeing much change in open shotguns for their own reasons.

I still dont quite see the logic in USPSA rules that I can walk to the line with a Beta in my rifle but not in the shotgun.

Your last sentence seems confusing but if I read it right I would be supprised as hell to find out that Ford,GM, Dodge and Toyota are agenda driven. Not pouring money into racing hoping to improve ther MARKET share. But Im not a gunsmith or businesman.

I apprecitate all of the gunsmiths who pour their lives into what they do and have spent more money than Id like to add up with them with no regrets. Well there was that one a_-hole who dicked up my Wilson pistol but thats another story.

No hard feelings.

Edited March 14, 2008 by tnek