627 8 Shot 38 Super Cyclinder

[art mc]

What do you think would be better. have the cyclinder heat treated or hard chromed. The problem I'm having is peening of the cyclinder stop notches.

Thanks

Art

[10mmdave]

problem I'm having is peening of the cyclinder stop notches.

Thanks

Art

Really ???

I have 2 that I've dry fired a fair amount and don't see any peening, actually took awhile to

see any wear.

Let's see what others have to say

[Bill Sahlberg]

Art,

I have 60K+ on my 627s and they only show a light "peening" as do all well shot revos. The stainless guns are harder by nature of the extra nickel (5%) added to the original steel. This helps it to be harder as well as keep it from rusting. BTW, you cannot hardchrome stainless steel, however, this peening is "work hardening" the cylinder already.

You sould contact S&W with some good digital pix of this cylinder and request an RA so they can see this and possibly replace your cylinder if it is proven to be of an inferior hardness.

Anytime that I have worked with S&W they have been most gracious and work to resolve any troubles. 100% customer satisfaction with me since I started shooting revos in 1975

[Bill Sahlberg]

Art,

I have 60K+ on my 627s and they only show a light "peening" as do all well shot revos. The stainless guns are harder by nature of the extra nickel (5%) added to the original steel. This helps it to be harder as well as keep it from rusting. BTW, you cannot hardchrome stainless steel, however, this peening is "work hardening" the cylinder already.

You sould contact S&W with some good digital pix of this cylinder and request an RA so they can see this and possibly replace your cylinder if it is proven to be of an inferior hardness.

Anytime that I have worked with S&W they have been most gracious and work to resolve any troubles. 100% customer satisfaction with me since I started shooting revos in 1975

[Bill Sahlberg]

Art,

I have 60K+ on my 627s and they only show a light "peening" as do all well shot revos. The stainless guns are harder by nature of the extra nickel (5%) added to the original steel. This helps it to be harder as well as keep it from rusting. BTW, you cannot hardchrome stainless steel, however, this peening is "work hardening" the cylinder already.

You sould contact S&W with some good digital pix of this cylinder and request an RA so they can see this and possibly replace your cylinder if it is proven to be of an inferior hardness.

Anytime that I have worked with S&W they have been most gracious and work to resolve any troubles. 100% customer satisfaction with me since I started shooting revos in 1975

[Carmoney]

Bill, Bill, Bill........where do I start?

First, current production stainless S&W cylinders are exhibiting the peening problem significantly more than the blued carbon steel cylinders--in this instance, stainless is definitely not harder. Second, you absolutely can hard-chrome stainless steel. In fact, my main 625 has been hard-chromed. Unfortunately, it does little or nothing to resolve the cylinder notch peening--as Waltermitty predicted, the chrome skin is too thin to prevent the deformation. I am also tempted to correct you on S&W's graciousness and customer service commitment, as they are the ones who have allowed this problem to continue unabated for a number of years. However, I am not going to question your own personal experience in that area. Suffice it to say that many others have had trouble communicating their problems to the factory and obtaining a satisfactory resolution.

Art will probably never find a replacement cylinder for his 627-4. I would be very surprised if the factory has any available. As I mentioned, hard-chroming won't help. My advice is to ignore the peening if it doesn't create functional problems--if the cylinder starts skipping, dressing down the ridges that tend to build up at the bottom of the lead-in ramps will generally solve it.

If there is a company out there who is willing and able to heat-treat a S&W cylinder to the proper hardness, without creating embrittlement problems, I would sure like to know about it!!

[Carmoney]

Also, in my opinion--and don't anybody take this personally--I believe that severe and repeated notch peening seems to be directly related to abusive gun-handling. Slamming the cylinder closed unnecessarily hard, incessant spin-checking with a hard "clunk" at the end of each spin, and hours and hours of dry-firing in full speed "Jerry" mode, will all dramatically accelerate the peening thing.

[bountyhunter]

Bill, Bill, Bill........where do I start?

First, current production stainless S&W cylinders are exhibiting the peening problem significantly more than the blued carbon steel cylinders--in this instance, stainless is definitely not harder.

Yep, ask any machinist about how fast stainless gums up cutting heads while the harder carbon steel shears clean.

[bountyhunter]

Bill, Bill, Bill........where do I start?

First, current production stainless S&W cylinders are exhibiting the peening problem significantly more than the blued carbon steel cylinders--in this instance, stainless is definitely not harder. Second, you absolutely can hard-chrome stainless steel. In fact, my main 625 has been hard-chromed. Unfortunately, it does little or nothing to resolve the cylinder notch peening--as Waltermitty predicted, the chrome skin is too thin to prevent the deformation. I am also tempted to correct you on S&W's graciousness and customer service commitment, as they are the ones who have allowed this problem to continue unabated for a number of years.

My Kuhnhausen manual shows somebody "pressing" on a cylinder where it peened up to force down the peened material to get the notch closer back to original width.

Anybody else do that?

Edited February 11, 2008 by bountyhunter

[bountyhunter]

problem I'm having is peening of the cyclinder stop notches.

Thanks

Art

Really ???

I have 2 that I've dry fired a fair amount and don't see any peening, actually took awhile to

see any wear.

Let's see what others have to say

Dry firing won't do it as fast ad full loaded cylinder because the added mass of the ammo means the cylinder stop bolt has to stop significantly more mass.

And as the gentleman said: if you don't snap fire the gun, this problem doesn't show up quickly.

[Waltermitty]

Bill, Bill, Bill........where do I start?

First, current production stainless S&W cylinders are exhibiting the peening problem significantly more than the blued carbon steel cylinders--in this instance, stainless is definitely not harder. Second, you absolutely can hard-chrome stainless steel. In fact, my main 625 has been hard-chromed. Unfortunately, it does little or nothing to resolve the cylinder notch peening--as Waltermitty predicted, the chrome skin is too thin to prevent the deformation. I am also tempted to correct you on S&W's graciousness and customer service commitment, as they are the ones who have allowed this problem to continue unabated for a number of years.

My Kuhnhausen manual shows somebody "pressing" on a cylinder where it peened up to force down the peened material to get the notch closer back to original width.

Anybody else do that?

I tried it, but the material is soft to begin with and moving it back into place didn't seem to help much. In another life we would peen cutting dies to clean up a raggedy shear cut, but it was only a temporary measure to get through a production shift, eventually the surface would have to be refaced and dimensioned to cut. Unfortunately, if you face off the cylinder on the outside diameter you lose a critical dimension.

S&W isn't building/engineering any of these guns for racing and apparently there isn't a big enough market for the wildcatters out there to build us bulletproof replacements. But with all the odd-ball guns S&W makes (I saw three versions of the 1917 - "22" in Arkansas this weekend), you'd think they could scrape together a production run of X27s in 38 Super/9x19 as parts guns if nothing else.

Anybody seen Randy Lee?

[art mc]

Thanks for all the input. I'm not sure how to proceed other than just keep stoning the peened area. I don't dry fire practice. I'm sure I have closed the cyclinder hard. Just so you know I have Serial Number 002. I'm told that smith does have the cyclinders if you want to pay $384.00 dollars. I have not tried to contact them because I have thousands of rounds thru it. Shooting it nearly every weekend for three or more years. Again thanks for the feedback.

Art

[Carmoney]

I'm told that smith does have the cyclinders if you want to pay $384.00 dollars.

$384 for the cylinder?? Holy crappoli, what a rip. But if they actually still have the cylinders in stock, you might still consider asking them to replace the cylinder at N/C if it's really that bad, despite the high mileage. The 627-4 model was promoted and priced as a competition model. If it were my gun, and I couldn't resolve the problem in reasonable fashion myself on a gun they sell as a competition model, I'd be getting fairly heavy-handed with them in customer service right about now. (But then I do conflict for a living.....)

[Waltermitty]

I'm told that smith does have the cyclinders if you want to pay $384.00 dollars.

$384 for the cylinder?? Holy crappoli, what a rip. But if they actually still have the cylinders in stock, you might still consider asking them to replace the cylinder at N/C if it's really that bad, despite the high mileage. The 627-4 model was promoted and priced as a competition model. If it were my gun, and I couldn't resolve the problem in reasonable fashion myself on a gun they sell as a competition model, I'd be getting fairly heavy-handed with them in customer service right about now. (But then I do conflict for a living.....)

I agree with you Mike, but when I went through my "get it fixed at S&W" phase, the guy at the warranty center with 30 years experience, blah, blah, blah, wouldn't replace the cylinder without charge on my 625 if it wouldn't skip chambers with a new cylinder stop installed. The fact that new cylinder stops wouldn't get me through a long match without skipping again was something he had never seen and which, therefore, could not occur; so I paid for a cylinder and I got my gun back with a new MIM stop that had been "fitted" (read: filed on) end shake that was at least twice the allowable and the barrel to cylinder gap was zero. It took me a month, one more new cylinder stop and learning to fit the cylinder before the gun would run again. Oh, and I almost forgot, they re-installed all factory springs and took me back to double-digit trigger pull even when the cylinder wasn't scraping the barrel.

I am surprised the cylinder is available at any price, but I would approach a local gunsmith and see if they couldn't by it with a discount and have somebody else install it.

Of course, if the gun isn't skipping yet, don't change it until it's used up.

[Carmoney]

Walt, I hear ya. At this point, I can't imagine too many scenarios under which I would send a gun back to S&W.

I have noticed that some people worry too much about the cosmetic aspect of cylinder notch peening. As Bill S. mentioned earlier, any revolver that has been used a lot will exhibit some peening (except perhaps those with Ti cylinders), but in many cases the peening is not creating a functional problem and probably never will.

Revolver shooters tend to worry about stuff that will never matter.

[David Sinko]

My own 627-4 is definitely not as heavily utilized as the others here and the peening has always been what I'd consider minor. On the other hand, my 625 had seen some hard use before I bought it and after the hard use I have inflicted on it I must say that the notches are rather heavily peened. I thought that I was experiencing the occasional skipping chamber because of this but after further testing and evaluation I am embarassed (and relieved) to report that the gun is fine and it was all a figment of my imagination. In other words, too much exposure to the autos was beginning to ruin me and I was forgetting how to shoot my revolvers properly. I have yet to wear out a S&W revolver, but I think I'm getting close.

While this may be comparing apples to oranges, I have worn out and broken various parts of my Redhawk through hard, continuous DA use but the notches are still fine and exhibit very little peening. All this through heavy dry fire and nothing less than cylinders full of 255 gr. bullets often as fast as I can pull the trigger. Maybe Ruger can teach S&W how to properly heat treat a stainless steel cylinder?

Dave Sinko

[Tom E]

Maybe Ruger can teach S&W how to properly heat treat a stainless steel cylinder?

Dave Sinko

The one good thing I'll say about Rugers is that they do use a very tough, abrasion resistant stainless alloy.

[Carmoney]

Maybe Ruger can teach S&W how to properly heat treat a stainless steel cylinder?

Dave Sinko

The one good thing I'll say about Rugers is that they do use a very tough, abrasion resistant stainless alloy.

They also make their cylinder stops nice and big, and the stop notches and ramps nice and deep.

[DougCarden]

If I remember correctly, and I may not....the 38 Super guns had a stainless cylinder that had a dark coating, Pre-melonite era that, was according to Mark Hartshorne of Pinnacle High Performance, "Harder than the hinges of Hades".

Is this the cylinder that we are talking about? Did they make some after the 627-4s that didnt have the dark cylinder and just the stainless cylinder? I have a hard time believing that the coated cylinders are exhibiting the same problems that the 625 cylinders are, but then again they might. I know Jerry has been trying to get them to heat-induction harden the cylinders like they do for the 500s and the like, hopefully they listen to him sometime.....

DougC

[bountyhunter]

Walt, I hear ya. At this point, I can't imagine too many scenarios under which I would send a gun back to S&W.

I have noticed that some people worry too much about the cosmetic aspect of cylinder notch peening. As Bill S. mentioned earlier, any revolver that has been used a lot will exhibit some peening (except perhaps those with Ti cylinders), but in many cases the peening is not creating a functional problem and probably never will.

Revolver shooters tend to worry about stuff that will never matter.

But if that cylinder slot edge is peening.... and the cylinder stop is also peening away at the edge of the frame window, doesn't that mean the cylinder will be over rotating past dead center alignment when it rotates to a stop?

Edited February 12, 2008 by bountyhunter

[Tom E]

Walt, I hear ya. At this point, I can't imagine too many scenarios under which I would send a gun back to S&W.

I have noticed that some people worry too much about the cosmetic aspect of cylinder notch peening. As Bill S. mentioned earlier, any revolver that has been used a lot will exhibit some peening (except perhaps those with Ti cylinders), but in many cases the peening is not creating a functional problem and probably never will.

Revolver shooters tend to worry about stuff that will never matter.

But if that cylinder slot edge is peening.... and the cylinder stop is also peening away at the edge of the frame window, doesn't that mean the cylinder will be over rotating past dead center alignment when it rotates to a stop?

Probably, somewhat, slightly, yes. Out of curosity I've deliberately shot single action groups with my 625 with the cylinder .030 - .040" short of locked. Only noticeable effect was that the 50' groups grew about 3/4" bigger. No, I don't recommend this, but it's good to know.

[Bob Hostetter]

Anybody know what stainless they are making the cylinders out of?

[Carmoney]

Walt, I hear ya. At this point, I can't imagine too many scenarios under which I would send a gun back to S&W.

I have noticed that some people worry too much about the cosmetic aspect of cylinder notch peening. As Bill S. mentioned earlier, any revolver that has been used a lot will exhibit some peening (except perhaps those with Ti cylinders), but in many cases the peening is not creating a functional problem and probably never will.

Revolver shooters tend to worry about stuff that will never matter.

But if that cylinder slot edge is peening.... and the cylinder stop is also peening away at the edge of the frame window, doesn't that mean the cylinder will be over rotating past dead center alignment when it rotates to a stop?

Exactly how tight do you think the tolerances are on the typical working competition revolver anyway??

[coldchar]

The coating may just be inside the cylinder holes. I just received a new S&W cylinder for my 686 38 super. When I went to chamfer the charge holes using my standard method of a brass screw coated in abraisive it just laughed at me. Definitely hard.

The outside of the cylinder does not appear to be coated.

[bountyhunter]

Walt, I hear ya. At this point, I can't imagine too many scenarios under which I would send a gun back to S&W.

I have noticed that some people worry too much about the cosmetic aspect of cylinder notch peening. As Bill S. mentioned earlier, any revolver that has been used a lot will exhibit some peening (except perhaps those with Ti cylinders), but in many cases the peening is not creating a functional problem and probably never will.

Revolver shooters tend to worry about stuff that will never matter.

But if that cylinder slot edge is peening.... and the cylinder stop is also peening away at the edge of the frame window, doesn't that mean the cylinder will be over rotating past dead center alignment when it rotates to a stop?

Exactly how tight do you think the tolerances are on the typical working competition revolver anyway??

I know what you mean, but all the wear directions are makign the thing go only one way.

I've seen some seriously large wear on the cylinder notches and frame slot edge on older guns. Like maybe .030" wobble in lockup.

I know it's the forcing cone's job to get all the bullets into the barrel, but it seems like it can't be good if there is that much play.