Chuck Anderson Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I'm setting up a stage with a breaching door and ram. Stage will start with the gun on the other side of the door from you. The plan is to start with the ram in hand, open the door with it, proceed through the door, pick up the gun and engage the targets. I'm not sure if everyone will be able to open the door. We're using the lightest pin and it goes open pretty easily but we've got some pretty young/old shooters as well. I was planning to assess one procedural for not opening the door and one procedural for not proceeding through the door. This would leave the option for the folks who can't open it to go to the end of the wall and enter the course. Does that make sense? And more importantly is it legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I'm setting up a stage with a breaching door and ram. Stage will start with the gun on the other side of the door from you. The plan is to start with the ram in hand, open the door with it, proceed through the door, pick up the gun and engage the targets. I'm not sure if everyone will be able to open the door. We're using the lightest pin and it goes open pretty easily but we've got some pretty young/old shooters as well. I was planning to assess one procedural for not opening the door and one procedural for not proceeding through the door. This would leave the option for the folks who can't open it to go to the end of the wall and enter the course. Does that make sense? And more importantly is it legal? Your procedurals are probably legal, but I think that if some shooters can't comply due to physical limitations, they should be able to converse with the RM about the alternate penalties.... Old Bridge set one of these up a while ago, using wooden dowels as pins to hold the door closed. Door construction is paramount, as is RO awareness of the ram, which will most likely be tossed aside.... I'd also look to the door not being able to knock the gun down, even if the entire door frame were to collapse.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I'm setting up a stage with a breaching door and ram. Stage will start with the gun on the other side of the door from you. The plan is to start with the ram in hand, open the door with it, proceed through the door, pick up the gun and engage the targets. I'm not sure if everyone will be able to open the door. We're using the lightest pin and it goes open pretty easily but we've got some pretty young/old shooters as well. I was planning to assess one procedural for not opening the door and one procedural for not proceeding through the door. This would leave the option for the folks who can't open it to go to the end of the wall and enter the course. Does that make sense? And more importantly is it legal? You can assign one procedural for failing to follow the course procedure. No problem there.... it's no different than a procedural for not getting the token in the bucket, or not getting the dummy on the table, or whatever. You'd have to wordsmith the WSB pretty carefully in order to give *two* procedurals... one for failing to open the door, then a second one for failing to go *through* the door (which was, apparently, not open). I think it is doable, but... ...you may also want (?) to consider that, if someone tries to open the door, fails, and ends up going around the end of a wall to get to their gun, they've already swallowed a pretty hefty time-penalty, and may not also need procedurals to keep the competitive equity of the stage intact? B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Read the cooper tunnel thread this is allmost the same situation. I dont think you can give a procedural for movement. I also have to ask what the heck ability to ram a door down has to do with shooting ? It's not a shooting challenge. just put a closed door that has to be walked through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 It's certainly a distraction from the shooting...which makes it a shooting challenge. Let's not get on that path of whether it is appropriate or not (kinda why I closed the thread on the tunnel and opened another whole topic recently). Let's accept that a few of these challenge can be "practical"...even realistic. Lets leave the 1.1.8 discussion for the other thread. You'd have to wordsmith the WSB pretty carefully in order to give *two* procedurals... one for failing to open the door, then a second one for failing to go *through* the door (which was, apparently, not open). I think it is doable, but... +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 (edited) I also have to ask what the heck ability to ram a door down has to do with shooting ? It's not a shooting challenge. Well, Imagine you arrive home from work early, your bedroom door is locked but you hear moans coming from inside that sound like your wife. Your only weapon is on your night stand beside your bed. But you happen to have a battering ram in your hand. Edited February 9, 2008 by North Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mscott Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Wouldn't one procedural for not going through the door be enough? If it were enough of a hastle to get around the wall then maybe people would try harder to get through the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punkin Chunker Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I also have to ask what the heck ability to ram a door down has to do with shooting ? It's not a shooting challenge. Well, Imagine you arrive home from work early, your bedroom door is locked but you hear moans coming from inside that sound like your wife. Your only weapon is on your night stand beside your bed. But you happen to have a battering ram in your hand. Battering ram? Nah, I'd run out and load up the trebuchet I always carry in the back of the truck . . . . To get beyond discussing the point of the exercise, I'd have to agree with the idea that 1 procedural, plus the extra time going around the wall -- provided there was enough wall to make it time-consuming -- would be enough of a disadvantage to get the shooter through the door. On the other hand -- if opening the door presented a hidden target, or opened a port through which an array had to be engaged . . . . In your WSB, would the shooter have to use the ram, or would it be allowable to kick/shoulder the door open, movie-cop style? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punkin Chunker Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Wouldn't one procedural for not going through the door be enough? If it were enough of a hastle to get around the wall then maybe people would try harder to get through the door. I tagged on a quick sketch of how I'd solve the problem of getting the shooter through the door. Maybe not perfect, not to scale, etc. But it would make it worthwhile to use the door instead of going around. Door_entry.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sestock Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Why not just add an 8-10 foot wall section alongside the wall give them the choice of either using the battering ram or moving 16-20 feet around a wall to get to the gun. You would eliminate the need to access the penalty for those who can not open the door or lift the battering ram. It will be the shooters choice on which approach they use. The best way would still be to use the battering ram and would avoid the necessary of calling the RM for the procedurals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Why not just add an 8-10 foot wall section alongside the wall give them the choice of either using the battering ram or moving 16-20 feet around a wall to get to the gun. You would eliminate the need to access the penalty for those who can not open the door or lift the battering ram. It will be the shooters choice on which approach they use. The best way would still be to use the battering ram and would avoid the necessary of calling the RM for the procedurals. + 1 for this "freestyle" solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeweyH Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I'm setting up a stage with a breaching door and ram. Stage will start with the gun on the other side of the door from you. The plan is to start with the ram in hand, open the door with it, proceed through the door, pick up the gun and engage the targets. I'm not sure if everyone will be able to open the door. We're using the lightest pin and it goes open pretty easily but we've got some pretty young/old shooters as well. I was planning to assess one procedural for not opening the door and one procedural for not proceeding through the door. This would leave the option for the folks who can't open it to go to the end of the wall and enter the course. Does that make sense? And more importantly is it legal? It has never made sense to me for a stage designer to intentionally penalize shooters who can't physically complete the COF. It is very different thing to have to shoot through a 4 foot high port if you are 6'7'' or 3'6'. Is difficult for one and impossible for the other. If the World's Strongest man designed a stage where you had to shoot weak handed while holding up a Honda with you strong hand EVERYBODY would think that he was a lunatic and that the stage was unfair. In this case there would only be a few. Does that make it a fair and equitable stage? Also the instance you are talking about, they would probably be junior shooters. I don't think that would be an experience that would endear them to the game. I enjoy these types of props as much as anyone else but I don't think you should penalize someone for not doing something that is impossible for them to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 You asked about procedurals in this thread and I think only one should be assesed for not going through the door given it is in the WSB; however, I think one should design the door to open for anyone. The ram does not have to be of the standard weight used by LE. Cool challenge, IMHO stages should be designed so anyone (except those physically handicapped in some manner) can complete them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 9, 2008 Author Share Posted February 9, 2008 I've tested the door with the ram. It is very easy to open assuming any form of the proper technique is used. This will be demonstrated by the RO, who is retired Special Forces and has a little bit of experience swinging a ram. I don't anticipate needing to penalize anyone and I think just about anyone should be able to do this. However, I've also seen guys swing and miss repeatedly and not be able to open the door. And these have been some pretty big guys. What I don't want is for people to not try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 If the shooter elects to go around the barrier to retrieve his/her gun instead of using the ram is there a possibility of them being in front of the muzzle? Would this be a DQ for sweeping? Also they would have to be exceptionally careful of the 180 when retrieving the gun if they are moving uprange towards the gun. Don't know the answers, just my mental pictures asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Chuck, You know your prop and setup (better than we do), and it sounds like you are thinking it through pretty well. Rock on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNorth Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 If the shooter elects to go around the barrier to retrieve his/her gun instead of using the ram is there a possibility of them being in front of the muzzle? Would this be a DQ for sweeping? Also they would have to be exceptionally careful of the 180 when retrieving the gun if they are moving uprange towards the gun. Don't know the answers, just my mental pictures asking. These were the first thoughts I had also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 As Nik pointed out earlier, we at Old bridge have used a "Battering Ram" on a couple occasions. We have NEVER had a problem with anyone from a 12 year old girl to a few full and plus size as well as older shooters busting the door. A couple points, Use heavy enough dowels to make it a real hit, but light enough that they break. At out Tactical Match i think we used 2 1/2 pieces, but that is a very physical match, for a reagular club match one piece or even a 3/8 dowel is sufficient. DO make sure the door and the jamb are heavily reinforced. We bolted steel plates ove the holes and onto the edge of the door. also keep in mind the door itself has to withstand the repeated batterings! We had 1/2 plywood screwed over the impact area and it was trash at the end of the day. the Hinges also take a beating. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 The door is coming from a match sponsor Breaching Technologies Incorporated. It's a $4000.00 breaching door designed for repeated use by SWAT Teams. I've used the door at the 2006 Ft. Benning 3-Gun match for those folks that were there. It's plenty strong and there won't be any problems with that. The gun will be placed so that there is not a 180 degree issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 (edited) You know your prop and setup (better than we do), and it sounds like you are thinking it through pretty well. Rock on. I agree with Flex. As for the number of penalties, I guess you will just have to decide how important that particular element is to you as MD.Thought I would toss this into the mix. You know your shooters and you know how they will respsond to the prop. You also know the safety considerations. In our area we have a lot of older shooters, including a very sweet lady in her 70's and her husband in his 80's. We also have a couple of elderly shooters and not so elderly shooters who have some physical limitations. If you are certain your shooters can complete the requirement, and if you want everyone to try, go for it and learn from the experience. Just asking on this forum shows us you are a thoughtful MD. We need more guys like you. Edited February 10, 2008 by Ron Ankeny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 The door is coming from a match sponsor Breaching Technologies Incorporated. It's a $4000.00 breaching door designed for repeated use by SWAT Teams. I've used the door at the 2006 Ft. Benning 3-Gun match for those folks that were there. It's plenty strong and there won't be any problems with that. The gun will be placed so that there is not a 180 degree issue. If we were able to cobble up a door like we did and have it survive, then your prop will certainly work. i only wish I was close enough to be able to shoot your match. Stages like this can have a very high 'Cool Factor' and make a match memorable. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 The door is coming from a match sponsor Breaching Technologies Incorporated. It's a $4000.00 breaching door designed for repeated use by SWAT Teams. I've used the door at the 2006 Ft. Benning 3-Gun match for those folks that were there. It's plenty strong and there won't be any problems with that. The gun will be placed so that there is not a 180 degree issue. That door was a nice change from the usual at Benning. I watched a number of shooters take more than one swing at it. Also saw a DQ there when a shooter took a herculean swing and his gun belt popped off and hit the ground.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 The door is coming from a match sponsor Breaching Technologies Incorporated. It's a $4000.00 breaching door designed for repeated use by SWAT Teams. I've used the door at the 2006 Ft. Benning 3-Gun match for those folks that were there. It's plenty strong and there won't be any problems with that. The gun will be placed so that there is not a 180 degree issue. That door was a nice change from the usual at Benning. I watched a number of shooters take more than one swing at it. Also saw a DQ there when a shooter took a herculean swing and his gun belt popped off and hit the ground.... I heard about that one also. That's why I wanted to start with the gun on the other side of the door. Figured that would be the safest way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Chuck, Just a thought for you. At some point, you can only do so much and the competitors bear the remainder of the responsibility for understanding the WSB, going along with the game plan (i.e. hammering the door until it opens), and smiling and having fun. FWIW, E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 You should also consider how much opening the door will affect the stage scores. Average 10 seconds getting to the gun, 5 seconds shooting, makes a bad stage. 2-3 seconds dealing with the door, out of a 20+ second stage, not so bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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