rkgsmith Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Not sure if this fits here, but here goes anyway. Been watching some videos of Taran Butler and and TGO. Both of these guys look out of shape and almost sloppy when they shoot. Yet they win and win all the time. Watching Taran he almost plods along thru stages. Many time it seems his handgun is not even at eye level, or he is looking over top of his rifle at targets that are well beyond point shoot range. TGO is often limpimg thru stages with his leg in a brace. Yet the speed is there amd the hits are on the money. Many of the other top shooters move smoothly, sure footed and in and out of boxes like walking on rice paper. Yet Butler and TGO kick thier asses. Most sloppy shooters shoot sloppy scores, but not those two. Am I the only one that notices this? I mean the results speak for themselves, those two are two of the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I know what you mean, talk about natural abilities... I have even heard of instances where Taran was caught shooting 2 A's while looking in a different direction (next target). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Uh... I personally think that Taran is a smooth shooter and moves fluidly. I know it sounds ghey, but frankly he is an inspiration to me. I try to emulate his technique(s) and aim to be as smooth as he is. Do you happen any links to the videos where you think he is almost plodding, sloppy, etc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Those two can pull the trigger at any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 If you ever shot a match at Norco in the "ol' days" you would understand the REAL Run 'n' Gun style that is Taran's. Balls to the wall on 40+ round stages every weekend. That said, what has made him win is getting his hits and being efficient with his movement. He is VERY quick with his head/eye transitions after calling the last shot on a target and is VERY good at entering and exiitng a position. These "early" movements and just being a bigger guy probably lend him to looking a little sloppy. Robbie and on the young side Max Michel both have a super smooth and fluid style that I'm trying to develop. With my size it's a little harder but through other training I think it's more do-able (plyometrics are your friend). Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSAJ19 Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 What? No mention of Angus Hobdell? Despite his "Portly Status" (his words, not mine), that guy can move (& shoot). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 They call their shots. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineshootah Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Not sure if this fits here, but here goes anyway. Been watching some videos of Taran Butler and and TGO. Both of these guys look out of shape and almost sloppy when they shoot. Yet they win and win all the time. Never judge a book by its cover... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 (edited) Some guys can move no matter what their size, ecomony of motion. Unless its a long run. getting into and out of postion smoothly will always beat raw speed. I know I have the tendency to charge into position only to loose time getting set up. Edited February 9, 2008 by Supermoto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmap Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Not sure if this fits here, but here goes anyway. Been watching some videos of Taran Butler and and TGO. Both of these guys look out of shape and almost sloppy when they shoot. Yet they win and win all the time. Watching Taran he almost plods along thru stages. Many time it seems his handgun is not even at eye level, or he is looking over top of his rifle at targets that are well beyond point shoot range. TGO is often limpimg thru stages with his leg in a brace. Yet the speed is there amd the hits are on the money. Many of the other top shooters move smoothly, sure footed and in and out of boxes like walking on rice paper. Yet Butler and TGO kick thier asses. Most sloppy shooters shoot sloppy scores, but not those two. Am I the only one that notices this? I mean the results speak for themselves, those two are two of the best. I'm gonna have to say that Rob almost never looks sloppy to me when he's shooting. He may have bad knees but he doesn't look sloppy. His transitions, splits, and accuracy are unbelievable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Moore Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 the hits are on the money you said it in your opening statment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Ho Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 It's a shooting sport right? Not a graceful movement sport. I think everyone has certain strengths. They just have learned to use their's. Like I told someone today. This isn't fat. It's an organic recoil mitigation system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I agree with what has been said...their ability to call shots is what sets them apart. I've always said I can't wait until USPSA has full fledged athletes (in every sense of the word) that have Rob's shooting ability fighting at the top. It's bound to happen as the sport grows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Capizzo Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I've always said I can't wait until USPSA has full fledged athletes (in every sense of the word) that have Rob's shooting ability fighting at the top. That may be the big contribution of the AMU to our sport. REAL professionals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Taran actually moves a lot faster than he looks. He is quite tall and has long legs. He justs gets his legs moving and there is not stopping him. Try staying with him when he walks from the parking to a movie when he thinks he is going to be late. His legs just keeping moving longer and faster and he is still just walking. Economy of Motion The other thing you are probably not noticing is that Robbie hardly ever takes an extra step. I watched him and Taran talk about a stage, Robbie would say, 'Dont go there, you can see everthing from here you need to see'. Taran did the same thing to me in OK. He said put your left foot on this step, look down shoot those targets. Then take your right foot to this step and shoot those targets." Accuracy Both Robbie and Taran will talk about their accuracy! They have less extra shots than anyone, they are on target faster and transition faster than most everyone. Speed Look at stages 5, 7, and 9(?) at Area 2 & WSSSC these are heavy in movement. Yet both those guys do well. I do not think I have ever seen Taran or Robbies really look sloppy, consistently. They do know how to shoot on the move with very little distrubance of their sight pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gotm4 Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 "Speed is not part of the true Way of strategy. Speed implies that things seem fast or slow, according to whether or not they are in rhythm. Whatever the Way, the master of strategy does not appear fast." --Miyamoto Musashi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwmagnus Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Uh... I personally think that Taran is a smooth shooter and moves fluidly. I know it sounds ghey, but frankly he is an inspiration to me. I try to emulate his technique(s) and aim to be as smooth as he is.Do you happen any links to the videos where you think he is almost plodding, sloppy, etc.? Try http://www.taranbutler.net/index.php?optio...ge&Itemid=1 "Taran actually moves a lot faster than he looks. He is quite tall and has long legs. He justs gets his legs moving and there is not stopping him. Try staying with him when he walks from the parking to a movie when he thinks he is going to be late. His legs just keeping moving longer and faster and he is still just walking. Economy of Motion" LMAO My guess is not much gets between Taran and a late movie call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I think part of the problem here is the word sloppy. Robbie, Taran, and Todd just never look like they are in a hurry. Then you watch Chris and some of the other younger top shooters who seem to explode into motion and rocket through a stage. Yet in the end, they are all neck and neck. Personally, I think pjb45 has the truth of it. Robbie, Taran, and all bring economy of motion, accuracy, precision, and confidence to every stage. They know exactly what they have to do. Then they do it repeatedly with tremendous consistency. Robbie is actually infamous for his ability to remain calm and consistent in foul weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herky Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 All the top shooters have great economy of motion, one of the best I've seen is our own Chuck Bradley. For a "big guy", Chuck was/is fun to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 (edited) Do you happen any links to the videos where you think he is almost plodding, sloppy, etc.? Try http://www.taranbutler.net/index.php?optio...ge&Itemid=1 Which one is he almost plodding, sloppy, etc? All of them? I guess he isn't sponsored by SVI anymore. I don't see SVI listed in his sponsor section. Glockworkx is one of his sponsors so I guess he is going to start shooting Glocks more? Maybe he will get crisper and not plod so much by shooting a Glock. Edited February 10, 2008 by Religious Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Taran's putting points on paper while the rest of (the most of) us are still pulling our thumbs out of our derrieres. Which one of us is sloppy about our time management? Who is in control? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Taran is sponsored by many folks; Ion Bond is only one of the folks. Look on his shirt and you will see a list of his sponsors. SV is longer a sponsor for Taran. Taran probably will not be shooting a Glock any more than he has been or in any of the National matches. Glock has Dave and Jessie on board for those matches. Taran was second in the A2 match. He shot the match in minor and was about 22 points behind the leader. He moved from Tactical to Open at the Benning 3 Gun match and won it. He won the Western States Single Stack Championship. He will tell you that he stop focusing on speed and paid attention to his hits. The confidence in accuracy, I believe, led to him shooting and moving better. I have watched Robbie and him at a few National matches and in AZ. I can not emphasize enough how much time they spent on movement to "the spot" to shoot. They would move to that spot and were ready to shoot. No extra steps or movement. Addtioinally, they reduced the setup time to shoot. Another example of shooting in ports. They move in far enough to see everthing without having to re-orient their bodies, then they are out of there looking for their next stopping or shoot place. I think once they reached the level of calling their shots they reduce the time between the call of the shot and their next action, whether it be another shot or movement. Think about it, a .1-.09 second saved on each shot, array, etc, really starts to add up. It amazes me how much effort they put into their accuracy. I think that is the foundation for working on the economy of motion that they excell at doing in a match. Rob has said, "you can not fool yourself into..." By focusing on accuracy, economy of motion, these guys have an inner confidence that is examplified by them shooting better than everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STInky Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 FWIW, Taran is not as "big & sloppy" in person as you may suggest. You know what they say about cameras adding lbs. to your figure !!!! On the other hand.....I bet he has a hard time finding a hat to fit !!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkgsmith Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 The points are well taken, Maybe "sloppy" was not the best choice of words. Maybe thier size has something to do with it. It just appears to me that after looking at a lot of videos they both tend to "plod " along thru some of the stages. The proof is in the pudding when it comes to stats. Both of these guys are legends when it comes to practical shooting. I remember Jerry Barnhart years ago at the Area 8 shooting a stage that had a fence with a plenty of places to stop and start. He just seemed to move with such control, in and out of ports, never looking rushed or off the pace, almost slow in fact. Yet he shot the stage clean and a half second faster than anybody else. Thats the only point I was trying to make. I understand what they lose in speed to the target they make up in shots on target and target to target transition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I understand what they lose in speed to the target they make up in shots on target and target to target transition. hmmmmmm... My take is the opposite. I think that plenty of shooters can run splits and transition with them. They are gaining time in other areas. Watch the vids on Taran's site and notice how soon he is shooting when going to the next position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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