.223 In A 650

[twix]

I have been using a 650 for 9mm and .40 and would like to use it for .223 (AR for 3-gun) but I'm just a little confused about all the trimming/swaging/ lubing/neck re-sizing/ full length re-sizing stuff. I need some advise on what's important/ critical/not important at all.

My current plan for brass is to shoot up some Win white box 55gr from Walmart at $7.47/40 or buy the Bushmaster once fired stuff for about $27 shipped, but I don't know what kind of brass they use.

I have read through the old posts here in the reloading forum, I am just looking for your method of ensuring good feeding .223 for your 3-gun AR. Thanks.

Tom Bergman

[Paul B]

I know you may want to do the reloading yourself for the fun of it, but when I tried reloading .223 it was just too much of a hassle. Small bullets, case lubing, case trimming, tiny opening for the powder to go through and then you have to work up the load.

You can buy a thousand South African at most gun shows for $109. They shoot great and are accurate. The question is how much fun you get out of the reloading part as a hobby. Good luck.

[Intel6]

I reload .223 on my 650 all the time, in fact I just finished up a batch yesterday.

Now by your post it seems you have never reloaded rifle ammo before? Sounds like you need to re-read one of the quality books you bought on reloading when you first started, right!

If for some reason you are lacking such a book please go get one and read it. There are more variables/factors/chances to screw it up when loading rifle rounds. And since rifle cartridges deal in greater pressures you don't wan that too happen.

Now after that has been said, loading .223 on the 650 is pretty straightforward and you can turn out some great quantities of ammo on it.

Irregardless of wether it is cheaper to load it or buy it, you can load some pretty cheap ammo since you already have the press. The lubing/sizing/trimming etc... stuff is dooable but can be avoided. You can buy once fired military brass that has been reconditioned and is ready to load. There are good sources for surpluss powder and 55 fmj's can be had for under $40 a thousand.

Now I load lots of 55's for everyday plinking but I also load up .223 ammo for specific purposes such as target, varmiting and 3 gun.

It all comes down to what Paul B already said. You need to figure out your reasons for doing it and then go from there.

If you decide to load .223 on your 650 I would be glad to talk to you about how I do it.

Neal in AZ

[twix]

Thank you Paul and Neal. Since Neal is correct in assuming I have not loaded rifle before, I followed his advise and dug out this red book written by some guy named Lee (my other book is Lyman for Handguns). Mr. Lee recomends for an autoloading rifle that one should: 1-full length re-size 2-trim the case 3-chamfer the mouth 4-prime 5-load powder 6- seat 7- crimp. I didn't see anything about lubing, but I believe that is probably necessary before re-sizing.

While this seems like a lot of extra work compared to pistol loading, I am not totally discouraged if it will allow me to shoot more quality ammo that is 3-gun accurate.

If I can get South African .223 at gunshows for $109, the savings would be marginal unless the brass is re-used several times.

Compared to $187/1000 (that is Win white box at Walmart for $7.47/40), I could shoot a lot more for the same money.

So, how necessary is trimming and chamfering and how are these operations best accomplished?

Will small rifle primers work in my small pistol primer set-up or do I have to change the priming system?

Can I use my 9mm shell plate?

I'd rather shoot than load, but I like being able to load my own and will probably proceed based on my understanding at this time.

Neal I would be most interested and grateful if you would share your reloading process for 3-gun quality ammo.

[ErikW]

I started loading .223 a couple years ago after many years of pistol loading. There are some big, and important differences:

- Case length

- Cartridge headspace length

Case length can be measured by calipers or a gauge, after resizing (because sizing stretches it). Too long and it must be trimmed with a special case trimmer. Then their necks have to be deburred and chamfered with another tool.

Headspace must be measured by a cartridge headspace gauge. It's basically the distance from the shoulder to the case head. Too short, it may blow up your gun. Too long, it may not chamber in your gun.

There are gauges that let you easily measure both length and headspace in one step. However, you have to do this after resizing. This negates the advantage of a progressive press like the 650. You could get a dedicated toolhead with a Dillon electric trimmer which automatically trims too-long cases. Some people use dedicated presses for that.

Trimming became too much of a hassle for me. If it's too long, I just trash it. I can buy reconditioned, trimmed brass that's ready to load. Then it becomes about at costly as bulk factory or surplus 55 FMJ ammo. However, you can still load match bullets this way far cheaper than any factory match load.

As for lubrication, it is critical because an unlubed case will stick in your sizing die. No big deal, just spray Hornady One Shot on your brass.

[EricW]

I found it pretty tough to justify loading .223. For super-accurate loads, yeah, you can save some dough. For everything else it seems to be a wash.

[twix]

Well I've been looking for a good excuse to pick up another press, but I don't see it happening soon, nor the power case trimmer from Dillion although it looks like the cool way to go.

You guys haven't talked me out of it yet. What's the best bang for the buck way of trimming and chamfering?

FYI - Bushmaster mailed me back, their brass is once fired PMC military crimped primer.

I want to reload for a 16" AR so I need pretty accurate, but I'm not going to be weighing every case.

[SVI4ME]

I loaded .223 on my 650 and now on my 1050. I buy reconditioned brass from scharch manufacturing. It is resized and trimmed and ready to go. Then I get Winchester 55 gr FMJ from Midway for 35.00 a thousand, they have a cannular so you don't have to worry about getting the length right.

I use Varget for my good stuff or the WC 846 surplus powder for everything else for 80. or so for 8 pounds delivered from Wideners. I use Dillon case lube on the brass by putting the brass in a canned soda shell and giving them a squirt or two and shake them around to spread the lube.

A couple of sessions later you have 1000 rounds ready to go. I do like to reload, it get's me away from the kids for a few hours at a time.

When you shoot 3 gun all your brass is mixed with the others so you don't have to load the stuff again. AND yes small rifle will work in a small pistol system.

Good Luck

Rob

[twix]

Thanks Rob. That's what I need. Doing it like that would only require belling the mouth, dropping powder and seating crimping? One die? which do you use?

One of my pal's said that 9x23 was made by cutting down .223 cases. Does this mean I can use my 9mm shellplate too?

Tom

[ErikW]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the primer crimp removal part of preparing brass. I have a Dillon swager for it. You can also use a case mouth chamfering tool.

Belling the mouth isn't done. Crimping is optional (but kellyn says there's a special place in hell for those of us who crimp match bullets).

When I load pre-conditioned brass, I use a neck-size-only die in the first station to round out any necks crushed or dinged during shipping and handling. If I'm not loading pre-primed brass, I keep the decapping pin in there to clean out the flash hole. Next station just drops powder. I seat a bullet at the third station. Finally, I crimp, hell or not.

All there really is to it is holding a little bullet in a little mouth to seat it. Unless I'm using a bulky powder I can't even do a visual powder check and must have faith in the Dillon powder measure.

[jhgtyre]

After having loaded a couple of rounds without powder, the powder measure was broken, I have a powder check die on my .223 setup for the 650. No more empty cases! And I have no idea what caused the powder measure to break. The part that broke was a cast part (or it looked like one to me) and I found it snapped in half. Dillon fixed it for free. The powder check die was not free but it has been worth every penny.

-ld

[lynn jones]

Irregardless

is not a word. you can't use it because you don't live in the South.

[SVI4ME]

I use a dillon .223 dies. They have a crimp only die that makes nice crimps. I guess I am going to hell too.

Erik is right, no belling. The dohickie in the powder drop actually surrounds the case mouth and it funnels the powder in.

I have a buddy that just loves my 25.0 varget load with the Win. 55 loads that he makes me load some up for him. He gets better groups than me. Dime size groups at 100 with his Colt. Really pisses me off when he beats me on points with my loads.

You do have to use a .223 shell plate or a 38 super comp (they are the same). The 9 shell plate will make the round wobblely. You want that sucker standing straight up for all the stations

Any other question just ask away

Rob

[kellyn]

Erik,

I may have a way to get you up to Purgatory. Several SOCCOM units have gone to heavier .223 bullets due to their superior terminal ballistics. Both Hornandy 75 g and Sierra 77 g bullets have been used but there are complaints that the bullets slip back into the cases during full auto. Sierra has made some 77 grain Match Kings with a cannelure so the bullets can be crimped. I suppose it is not evil to crimp a cannelured bullet. If you must deface a sierra matchking, you might as well deface one that is already scarred.

I load .223 on a 650 but I do it semi-progressively. I size the cases on my 550 and then trim them in my Gracey trimmer. Then they go into the 650 for priming, powder and bullet.