the 6.8 major and more

[ar15performance]

We've been working with the 6.8 for the last 2-3 years and it has come a long way.

It is easy to make major from a 18" barrel, I use an 11 or 12 twist with a DMR chamber that has a .277x .090 leade.

It can be done with a 130gr Speer flat base and 30gr of 335 or 27.5gr 10x loaded to 2.29. PRI mags will allow 2.31"loads.

Just for safety I'm using LWRCs "advanced combat bolt" . Those loads give around 2475fps at 70-90 degrees, cold hurts.

Want fast loads? 29.5 gr RE7 and 90gr TNTs loaded to 2.31" 2950fps

It's hard to hear the dings at 200+ with 55gr bullets, no problem hearing those 90s hit.

[kimel]

What sort of accuracy are you getting out of those major loads?

[ar15performance]

What sort of accuracy are you getting out of those major loads?

3/4" at 100, The flat base Speer shot better than the boat tail Sierra. It was an easy load, I didn't need to play with primers I just set them .020 off the lands.

For 3 gun anything under an inch is good IMO.

[bigbrowndog]

I would say anything under 1 moa is great but that includes shooting past 100yards. 1 inch at 100 doesn't necessarily mean 2" at 200 yards, and so on. also having ammo capacity is a concern, are reliable 30 round mags, available? and how expensive is each round considering you'll need hosing ammo as well, and it will pretty much be a lost brass event.

It would be interesting to see if the 6.8 would make a viable, economical package.

trapr

[kimel]

Yeah, the cost is one of the huge issues that has been holding me back from even playing with it. That brass is expensive compared to .223 or even .308.

Anyone tried those loads, or similar loads, out of a stock DPMS 6.8 barrel?

[ar15performance]

I would say anything under 1 moa is great but that includes shooting past 100yards. 1 inch at 100 doesn't necessarily mean 2" at 200 yards, and so on. also having ammo capacity is a concern, are reliable 30 round mags, available? and how expensive is each round considering you'll need hosing ammo as well, and it will pretty much be a lost brass event.

It would be interesting to see if the 6.8 would make a viable, economical package.

trapr

I hit a 8" steel at 328yds off of a up right cable spool at a charity 3 gun here in Durango last fall, if you use a cheap chromelined barrel the accuracy may not be good but a SS Pac Nor or Wilson blank will make a good barrel providing someone that knows the 6.8 uses the correct chamber and twist. 25 rnd mags are made by PRI, C products do not work well.

Brass is more expensive but you can use a 3 Bucc if you're worried about the cost. Bullets are also more expensive but, I use about half as much powder and the rifle weighs 1 lb less before ammo, it's much faster to get back on target than a 308 so if you want to shoot major and take every available advantage it's a no brainer IMO but I also shoot the 5.56x42(SPC) and the 6mmBanshee for longer ranges in minor.

[ar15performance]

Yeah, the cost is one of the huge issues that has been holding me back from even playing with it. That brass is expensive compared to .223 or even .308.

Anyone tried those loads, or similar loads, out of a stock DPMS 6.8 barrel?

A 10 twist with the SAAMI chamber would not be the best option because the SAAMI has a shorter throat and the 10 twist causes higher pressures. 11 would be the best for 130s and a DMR chamber has a .277 dia. leade.

[uscbigdawg]

Interesting option for IPSC rifle matches (USPSA we don't generally shoot paper at distance).

Rich

[bigbrowndog]

I think your comment "its a no brainer" says it all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trapr

Edited February 3, 2008 by bigbrowndog

[320pf]

[quote name='bigbrowndog'

......25 rnd mags are made by PRI, C products do not work well.

Brass is more expensive but you can use a 3 Bucc if you're worried about the cost. Bullets are also more expensive but, I use about half as much powder and the rifle weighs 1 lb less before ammo, it's much faster to get back on target than a 308 so if you want to shoot major and take every available advantage it's a no brainer IMO but I also shoot the 5.56x42(SPC) and the 6mmBanshee for longer ranges in minor.

ar15performance,

Please explain the advantage of the 6.8 PSC in 3-gun?

1) Using a brass catcher (3 Bucc) in a match is a nonstarter. So this does not really offset the extra cost of brass.

2.) You acknowledge that the bullets cost more and then claim that you use "half as much powder". The loads that you list in your first post 27.5gr-to-30gr are not "half" of what you would use in the 5.56mm. In fact the two cartridges use about the same amount of powder. This is easily verified any reloading manual that you check.

3.) If a shooter goes with a 6.8SPC in addition to the barrel/upper that they have to buy, they also have to buy magazines 6.8SPC magazines are more expensive than 5.56mm mags. (I like to bring least 4 or 5 for a match). I also like to bring a spare bolt and carrier to a match that I can take from spare upper that I bring.

4.) Most 6.8SPC magazines hold only 25 rounds... which can translate to more reloads= more time.

5.) USPSA generally shoots steel at distance. So there is not scoring advantage there.

6.) In the close-up stages the minor (5.56mm) rifles be will faster with the second follow-up shot. Check the James Tarr article on the 6.8SPC in the May/June 2005 issure of front-site. He found his times were about 5-percent slower and at the time he tested the 6.8SPC, he was shooting a PF of only ~306. I have done a speed drill tests with a rifle that makes a 325 PF and I found that a is about 15-percent slower than the 5.56mm. I have verified the 15-percent speed hit/penalty with two other shooters, one a grand master level shooter and the other an A level shooter.

7.) Shooters that go with the 308W usually shot "Heavy Metal" (HM). The 6.8SPC does not qualify for HMN because the bullet diameter is only .277 not .308. The upshot of this is that you are not going the be competing with the 308W shooters but the 5.56mm shooters, who will be faster then the 6.8SPC.

So bottom line until/unless USPSA changes the way they score rifle there is NO advantage to shooting major.

I do understand the fun/cool factor of shooting a different cartridge that the rest of the pack... and that mat be reason enough!

320pf

Edited February 4, 2008 by 320pf

[ar15performance]

[quote name='bigbrowndog'

......25 rnd mags are made by PRI, C products do not work well.

Brass is more expensive but you can use a 3 Bucc if you're worried about the cost. Bullets are also more expensive but, I use about half as much powder and the rifle weighs 1 lb less before ammo, it's much faster to get back on target than a 308 so if you want to shoot major and take every available advantage it's a no brainer IMO but I also shoot the 5.56x42(SPC) and the 6mmBanshee for longer ranges in minor.

ar15performance,

Please explain the advantage of the 6.8 PSC in 3-gun?

1) Using a brass catcher (3 Bucc) in a match is a nonstarter. So this does not really offset the extra cost of brass.

2.) You acknowledge that the bullets cost more and then claim that you use "half as much powder". The loads that you list in your first post 27.5gr-to-30gr are not "half" of what you would use in the 5.56mm. In fact the two cartridges use about the same amount of powder. This is easily verified any reloading manual that you check.

3.) If a shooter goes with a 6.8SPC in addition to the barrel/upper that they have to buy, they also have to buy magazines 6.8SPC magazines are more expensive than 5.56mm mags. (I like to bring least 4 or 5 for a match). I also like to bring a spare bolt and carrier to a match that I can take from spare upper that I bring.

4.) Most 6.8SPC magazines hold only 25 rounds... which can translate to more reloads= more time.

5.) USPSA generally shoots steel at distance. So there is not scoring advantage there.

6.) In the close-up stages the minor (5.56mm) rifles be will faster with the second follow-up shot. Check the James Tarr article on the 6.8SPC in the May/June 2005 issure of front-site. He found his times were about 5-percent slower and at the time he tested the 6.8SPC, he was shooting a PF of only ~306. I have done a speed drill tests with a rifle that makes a 325 PF and I found that a is about 15-percent slower than the 5.56mm. I have verified the 15-percent speed hit/penalty with two other shooters, one a grand master level shooter and the other an A level shooter.

7.) Shooters that go with the 308W usually shot "Heavy Metal" (HM). The 6.8SPC does not qualify for HMN because the bullet diameter is only .277 not .308. The upshot of this is that you are not going the be competing with the 308W shooters but the 5.56mm shooters, who will be faster then the 6.8SPC.

So bottom line until/unless USPSA changes the way they score rifle there is NO advantage to shooting major.

I do understand the fun/cool factor of shooting a different cartridge that the rest of the pack... and that mat be reason enough!

320pf

Can you make major with a .223? This has all been about if you want to make major. Wasn't that the title?

If you want to shoot a 308 go ahead I don't mind at all. I started to build a 30 HRT and just as I started the local shoots dropped the heavy metal class.

Most of the time I don't use a 6.8 for 3 gun either because locally we have no class seperation. However it is hard to hear the dings at over 200yds so when I know he has a long range set up I will use the 6.8 with 90gr TNTs because there is no doubt when I hit the plate and that helps bad calls.

Never said it was cheaper, I think the guy from Texas was worried about cost, I'm not.

Edited February 4, 2008 by ar15performance

[ar15performance]

I think your comment "its a no brainer" says it all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trapr

So what would you use to make major?

I'm sorry you didn't understand the topic of this thread but, if you'll go back and read what you just quoted is says if you want to make major and take every advantage it is the easiest way. If you don't want to make major why shoot anything but a 223? and why post here?

Funny you make that remark and live in San Antonio.

Edited February 4, 2008 by ar15performance

[Merlin Orr]

I can't see it....

IMO .. A .308 will do it all faster better and way cheaper. IMO

And .... just what do you mean with the comment about San Antonio?

[GentlemanJim]

Ding...did I hit it?

At 500 yds...(1500ft)...it takes apx 1.5 seconds for the sound of the Ding to come back to the shooter.

Hitting the guard on a flasher also makes a Ding.

I watch the reticle...and the target...I know if I hit it before the RO calls it, or the ding comes back

Waiting for a ding ....may not be the best choice

JMHO...Jim

[LadyinBlue]

Ding...fries are done!

Ding...fries are done!

[ar15performance]

I can't see it....

IMO .. A .308 will do it all faster better and way cheaper. IMO

And .... just what do you mean with the comment about San Antonio?

My 308s all 4 of them are alot heavier and slower to get on target than my 6.8 and thats just my opinion.

LOL you can't smell San Antonio from Corpus can you?

The dings? I get bad calls often and it's either just shoot it again or waste time arguing.

Edited February 4, 2008 by ar15performance

[320pf]

Can you make major with a .223? This has all been about if you want to make major. Wasn't that the title?

If you want to shoot a 308 go ahead I don't mind at all. I started to build a 30 HRT and just as I started the local shoots dropped the heavy metal class.

Most of the time I don't use a 6.8 for 3 gun either because locally we have no class seperation. However it is hard to hear the dings at over 200yds so when I know he has a long range set up I will use the 6.8 with 90gr TNTs because there is no doubt when I hit the plate and that helps bad calls.

Never said it was cheaper, I think the guy from Texas was worried about cost, I'm not.

The title of the thread is "the 6.8 major and more" My question(s) is the "and more" part of the thread.

Any way the point that I was trying to make is that:

Until/unless the USPSA changes the way they score rifle matches the 5.56mm/223Rem will dominate the competition because there is not enough scoring advantage in the difference between major and minor rifle. I started a thread several months ago suggesting that USPSA consider changing the way major and minor rifle are scored.

I could go over my idea again, but it is a bit off the subject of this thread. Oh well what the the heck... here it is again.

Several "outlaw" 3-run matches score like the smm3gun match. One "A" hit or two any where else for time. I suggested that:

Minor rifle:

requires a single "A" hit... scored as two "A" hit and time for a hit-factor or two hits any where and scored like a regular USPSA. If a shooter feels confident that they got the "A" off they go to the next target. If the shooter misses the "A" and gets a "C" the score is Charlie-Mike and gets the appropriate penalties. If they take the second insurance shot, they get what they shoot. For example an "A" and a "C" hit are the scored as an Alpha-Charlie

Major rifle requires a single "C" hit or better and is scored as either two "C's" or two "A's" depending on the actual hit. If a shooter feels confident that they got the "C" or better hit off they go to the next target. If the shooter misses the "A" or "C" and gets a "D" the score is Delta-Mike and gets the appropriate penalties. If the shooter takes the second insurance shot hey get what they shoot. Just like minor rifle.

This scoring system gives credit to Speed, Power, and Accuracy.

[ar15performance]

Can you make major with a .223? This has all been about if you want to make major. Wasn't that the title?

If you want to shoot a 308 go ahead I don't mind at all. I started to build a 30 HRT and just as I started the local shoots dropped the heavy metal class.

Most of the time I don't use a 6.8 for 3 gun either because locally we have no class seperation. However it is hard to hear the dings at over 200yds so when I know he has a long range set up I will use the 6.8 with 90gr TNTs because there is no doubt when I hit the plate and that helps bad calls.

Never said it was cheaper, I think the guy from Texas was worried about cost, I'm not.

The title of the thread is "the 6.8 major and more" My question(s) is the "and more" part of the thread.

Any way the point that I was trying to make is that:

Until/unless the USPSA changes the way they score rifle matches the 5.56mm/223Rem will dominate the competition because there is not enough scoring advantage in the difference between major and minor rifle. I started a thread several months ago suggesting that USPSA consider changing the way major and minor rifle are scored.

I could go over my idea again, but it is a bit off the subject of this thread. Oh well what the the heck... here it is again.

Several "outlaw" 3-run matches score like the smm3gun match. One "A" hit or two any where else for time. I suggested that:

Minor rifle:

requires a single "A" hit... scored as two "A" hit and time for a hit-factor or two hits any where and scored like a regular USPSA. If a shooter feels confident that they got the "A" off they go to the next target. If the shooter misses the "A" and gets a "C" the score is Charlie-Mike and gets the appropriate penalties. If they take the second insurance shot, they get what they shoot. For example an "A" and a "C" hit are the scored as an Alpha-Charlie

Major rifle requires a single "C" hit or better and is scored as either two "C's" or two "A's" depending on the actual hit. If a shooter feels confident that they got the "C" or better hit off they go to the next target. If the shooter misses the "A" or "C" and gets a "D" the score is Delta-Mike and gets the appropriate penalties. If the shooter takes the second insurance shot hey get what they shoot. Just like minor rifle.

This scoring system gives credit to Speed, Power, and Accuracy.

Ahh,

"more" as in more than 320pf and 2950fps from a 90gr TNT. You gotta admit the factory loadings for the 6.8 are lame to say the least.

Jim said he watches the bullet through the scope, we still use 1 moa red dots out to 400, I can't see a thing LOL

We have this one guy who shoots and scores and he really likes to take advantage of the scoring, ding "again", ding "again" the guys in the back are yelling "hit", "hit" of course I'm deaf and all I can hear is this joker yelling in my ear to fire again.

You have a lot of professionals here so I'll let them comment on the scoring idea. I just like to build custom rifles and shoot to test and have a good time.

I only get semi-serious in competition when I'm racing off-road.

[bigbrowndog]

I shoot a .308 when I want to make major, I shoot 44grs. or powder and my bullets cost me about 15.00 for 100, and they're "match" bullets. I shoot Irons, whether its with a .223 or a .308. The only advantage I can see, and its tuff to see thru all the BS, and hyperboly, is that you get "more" rounds in your mag. This of course is considering standard 20 round mags, I can get 30 round mags for .308 that are factory original, and work. If HEARING the "ding" is what you are concerned with, perhaps you should read Brian's work on shooting steel for speed. Waiting for the "ding" is not the way to do it fast. As for smelling San Antonio, perhaps you should consider listing your real name before DISSING someone anomimously. Or, perhaps you should stay seriously competitive driving your little offroad vehicle.

Trapr

[ar15performance]

I shoot a .308 when I want to make major, I shoot 44grs. or powder and my bullets cost me about 15.00 for 100, and they're "match" bullets. I shoot Irons, whether its with a .223 or a .308. The only advantage I can see, and its tuff to see thru all the BS, and hyperboly, is that you get "more" rounds in your mag. This of course is considering standard 20 round mags, I can get 30 round mags for .308 that are factory original, and work. If HEARING the "ding" is what you are concerned with, perhaps you should read Brian's work on shooting steel for speed. Waiting for the "ding" is not the way to do it fast. As for smelling San Antonio, perhaps you should consider listing your real name before DISSING someone anomimously. Or, perhaps you should stay seriously competitive driving your little offroad vehicle.

Trapr

As I said before the RO is the one calling for another shot so HE has to hear the ding. Harrison Beene Google it.

[bigbrowndog]

I didn't find anything listed under Harrison Beene Google it????

All kidding aside, I couldn't find any pictures of your vehicle, do you drive a buggy, a modified, or stock ORV.

old school Solid axles or do you prefer IFS? Small powerplant and Really low gears or muscle and moderate gearing?

I'm just curious, because it would seem that we actually enjoy many of the same things, except maybe your love of San Antonio!!!

Trapr

[el pres]

Wait a minute, A lot of 3g matches except only 308. or larger for major right ???

[ar15performance]

I didn't find anything listed under Harrison Beene Google it????

All kidding aside, I couldn't find any pictures of your vehicle, do you drive a buggy, a modified, or stock ORV.

old school Solid axles or do you prefer IFS? Small powerplant and Really low gears or muscle and moderate gearing?

I'm just curious, because it would seem that we actually enjoy many of the same things, except maybe your love of San Antonio!!!

Trapr

I owned Raven Racing for about 5 years (another write-off) I designed and built tube chassis for unlimited class buggies and trucks,

450hp LS1, power glide, dana 60s and 42" IROKs.

Dirty Chamber,

Out west here every club has their own rules, major is just that 320pf for a rifle, so any caliber that would get you there. The "iron man" or "heavy metal" require .308 or better, some say a .308 caliber which could be a 30 HRT, 300 Savage or what ever and others make it clear a "308 Win".

Most clubs here just don't have enough turnout for class seperation so they've dropped them and we just shoot to have a good time.

This guy Mac, an ex Marine still shoots a Garand in events with round count in excess of 300. ouch

Edited February 5, 2008 by ar15performance

[320pf]

Wait a minute, A lot of 3g matches except only 308. or larger for major right ???

I think that it is only 0.308" caliber bullets... Not 308W. I have shot Major with 155 gr bullet out of a 20-inch barrel in 300-221 fireball aka 300 Whisper.

320pf

Edited February 5, 2008 by 320pf

[bigbrowndog]

Dirty C, Major is whatever makes PF, Heavy Metal requires 7.62x51 minimum. The 6.8, makes major and could be used in a USPSA/IPSC match and receive major PF hits on paper. However we in the US, generally only shoot paper up close, and steel at distance, which would negate any PF advantage because a hit is the same for Minor or Major.

AR15PERF, I have recently completed a build on a'79 CJ5, having stretched it, and replaced everything except body and Tcase. Dana 60's, ZZ4, 38's, and exoskeleton. Its strictly a trail vehicle, I've owned it since 1980, I decided that I was going to keep it.

So you see, other than where I chose to live, we like the same things.

trapr