Powder for 40 MAJOR

[JD40]

I would like to start a discussion on what you think is the absolute best powder for 40 MAJOR. I would like to know more than what your favorite powder is. I would like to know specifics such as burn rates, bases, case volume, what the temp. does to the powder,............. and why you picked this powder over something else. I know that I am going to get a lot of responses for titegroup and 320 and would really like to see some discussion of newer powders also. Please post what you know. 40 MAJOR PLease.

joe

[wide45]

Clays with 180 jacketed. Tastes great, less filling.

[BSeevers]

VV 320

Clean.

Tastes funny.

[HSMITH]

I run Clays with a 180. Ultra clean, ultra soft, minimal changes with temperature, fills the case enough to easily see a normal charge, and 8 pounds is usually less than 100 bucks. Downside is that if you screw up you WILL blow your gun up.....

I will be playing some with E3 this spring, it might replace Clays and it might not, only testing will tell.

Tried TG, HATED it, pushy snap recoil, insane heating of the gun, huge swings in velocity with temp changes, and not all that clean burning. The ONLY plus it has is that it is cheap. I burned about 6 pounds of it and sold the rest, glad to be rid of it. TG will blow your gun up just as badly as Clays, but you have to screw up a little worse, not nearly as much as most people think though.

320 is really nice, the price and availability make it much less desirable for me. Never pushed 320 to see what happens when you screw up, am told it is pretty tolerant though.

Power Pistol is what I would use over TG if I wanted to stay away from the very fast powders. EXTREMELY tolerant of mistakes, just as clean, same recoil impulse feel to me, and not much more money. Downside is flash, it does muzzle flash badly if you shoot indoors or on a low light stage.

[bubback]

Tru Blu with a MG 180.Meters great in my Dillon.Very clean and smoke free.Temerature tolerant and has very good bulk density.1045 fps out of my 35 at 8k feet or sea level.

[JD40]

I run Clays with a 180. Ultra clean, ultra soft, minimal changes with temperature, fills the case enough to easily see a normal charge, and 8 pounds is usually less than 100 bucks. Downside is that if you screw up you WILL blow your gun up.....

I will be playing some with E3 this spring, it might replace Clays and it might not, only testing will tell.

Tried TG, HATED it, pushy snap recoil, insane heating of the gun, huge swings in velocity with temp changes, and not all that clean burning. The ONLY plus it has is that it is cheap. I burned about 6 pounds of it and sold the rest, glad to be rid of it. TG will blow your gun up just as badly as Clays, but you have to screw up a little worse, not nearly as much as most people think though.

320 is really nice, the price and availability make it much less desirable for me. Never pushed 320 to see what happens when you screw up, am told it is pretty tolerant though.

Power Pistol is what I would use over TG if I wanted to stay away from the very fast powders. EXTREMELY tolerant of mistakes, just as clean, same recoil impulse feel to me, and not much more money. Downside is flash, it does muzzle flash badly if you shoot indoors or on a low light stage.

Great info keep it comming!

Question, I hear all of the time that clays will blow up your gun if you make a mistake, what kinds of mistakes are you talking about? What powder wont blow your gun up if you make a mistake? To me if you put too much of xxx powder in a case or double charge it is going to blow! Are you talking about double charging a case? Is everyone in the same boat believing that bullet set back will blow your gun up with clays and not with xxx powder. I am confused and have been reading too many post warning the reloader not to use clays because so and so blew his gun up back when the power factor was 175 and have never even tried Clays or fast burning powders for themselves. If you load long and pay attention to the amount of the Clays you put in what else can you do? Is clays prone to seperate cases?

I would like to know if anyone has blown up a limited gun with clays since the power factor has changed and if it did what was the reason.

Right now our weather here in North Texas is in the teens but is going to warm up to the 30's by Friday and I hope to get out and try some Clays, E3, and Solo 1000.

You guys are great, I am just a confused limited shooter, and keep the info comming because I hope to find a good powder before I shoot Double Tap.

joe

[HSMITH]

Joe, for example, with Power Pistol you can have a LOT more setback before you get into any sort of pressure problems than if you were using Clays, Universal, TG. Some powders are much more tolerant of mistakes than others. The Clays line, and TG too, are VERY intolerant of mistakes. Set a major 40 load with Clays back .100" and you are into VERY high pressures and maybe even enough to have damage, set a Power Pistol load back that far and it will kick hard, probably won't show any pressure and odds of damage are really low.

Each powder has a threshold, where if you go past that point, all bets are off. At that threshold you don't know whether it will be OK or blow your gun up with the next increment. With the Clays line and TG too that line is very distinct, everything is OK and with the next increment it goes BANG in a bad way. All of them will tell you when you are approaching that level with chrono mapping. They will slow down per charge increase and flatten out. At that point you are on the threshold.

With Clays, setback the bullet a bit or an overcharge you will blow your gun up, there is very little forgiveness.

With a gun like a Glock with a factory barrel there is a bit of a 'fuse', the case will fail before the gun sustains anything but minor damage. The Glock KB you have read about 1000 times is just this 'fuse' unless things were drastically bad and the gun really blew up. With a fully supported barrel there is no fuse, if you aren't paying attention or screw up bad enough the first indication you have of the problem is the gun getting blown up and destroyed.

I do NOT advocate people pushing powders to the point of case failure. I have, at my own risk, and have a very good idea of what it takes to reach the pressure levels necessary to have bad problems. I am comfortable with that and I use Clays in my major 40 loads, but I also know exactly what can happen if I make a mistake and I am comfortable enough with that to keep using it.

I use Clays and have no problems with it at all, I am not recommending that you do the same, if you screw it up it will bite and bite HARD. If you are OK with that then I will tell you I haven't found a better 40 major powder for playing games.

[North]

I currently use tite group, but do not like the soot and heat that it produces.

I have heard on this forum that some use Universal Clays with 180 lead and molly bullets. What is your opinion of Universal Clays.

Edited January 17, 2008 by North

[Joe D]

I just bought a keg of Solo 1000 to test. My intent was to use it with Minor PF loads and cast bullets. It appears to be a little slower than Titegroup. It is also a single base powder = no nitro. I don't see why it would not work for Major. Testing begins soon.

[mscott]

I like WST, but I also shoot lead bullets. It seems to produce the least smoke of anything else I've tried and lead bullets are still $42/k here. I also like Clays, but only use it for minor. WST is temperature sensitive in that it gives a lower velocity in hot weather. After making 166pf at Area 8 I turned the powder up another .2 to keep it about 172pf.

[RePete]

I've just used up the last of my Win 540 (HS6) which 7.5gr under a 180gr CMJ gives me a PF of 172.6.

I've also been using 4.7gr TiteGroup under the 180gr CMJ and that gives me a PF of 177.6.

Either or and the dirt isn't a problem.

[G-ManBart]

You guys are great, I am just a confused limited shooter, and keep the info comming because I hope to find a good powder before I shoot Double Tap.

joe

Joe,

Keep in mind that for the most part the differences people are talking about here are pretty small...it's not like any of them are bad.

I like N320, but I do have some E3 that I will experiment with when I get the time. 320 is very clean (can shoot thousands between cleanings) and soft. It's a bit more expensive, but when you're only using 5gr or so, it's really not a big deal. Availability hasn't been a big issue...it's not always available immediately, but someone usually has it in stock pretty quickly.

I can't see needing to mess with faster powders to get a tiny bit softer load...why risk it?

If you're getting ready for DT, I'd suggest picking almost any of the powders mentioned, get a load that gives you the right PF with some cushion, load a bunch of it and shoot it. You'll do better with a decent load that you have the feel for than the "best" load that you aren't as familiar with.

[Lexor40cal]

Clays is best I found for .40 major, I used Titegroup for years with never a problem, but clays feels so much better.

I saw someone mention Universal Clays earlier in the thread, don't get that mixed up with Clays, they are both very different.

[JD40]

You guys are great, I am just a confused limited shooter, and keep the info comming because I hope to find a good powder before I shoot Double Tap.

joe

Joe,

Keep in mind that for the most part the differences people are talking about here are pretty small...it's not like any of them are bad.

I like N320, but I do have some E3 that I will experiment with when I get the time. 320 is very clean (can shoot thousands between cleanings) and soft. It's a bit more expensive, but when you're only using 5gr or so, it's really not a big deal. Availability hasn't been a big issue...it's not always available immediately, but someone usually has it in stock pretty quickly.

I can't see needing to mess with faster powders to get a tiny bit softer load...why risk it?

If you're getting ready for DT, I'd suggest picking almost any of the powders mentioned, get a load that gives you the right PF with some cushion, load a bunch of it and shoot it. You'll do better with a decent load that you have the feel for than the "best" load that you aren't as familiar with.

Thanks for the advice. I have a load worked up with Titegroup that is ready to roll; I cant seem to leave a good thing alone in fear that there is a magical powder that will take me to GRANDMASTER if I just try it!!

[scirocco38s]

I have used clays and liked it, with either 180 or 200's. 200's and clays is a definite recipe for casehead seperation.

I pefer to use N320 as it is the most consistent powder I have used. That is the powder I am using now.

I have use N310 and it is also very good just a little faster, but very soft. You must be careful with n310 because doublecharge is possible without fillin the case.

Tried titegroup and was not impressed.

E3-- no thank you as it is too smoky. Cheap but smoky.

I have a friend who's opinion I trust trying American Select, but initial reports are not that promising.

Everytime I try a new load(at least 100 rounds) I still come back to n320. It may be a more expensive powder, but the amount per round of powder at 20/lb versus 12/lb is nothing compared to bullets being 90+/k and primers at 20-25/k. So I spend an extra 2bucks/k for ammo, as lomg as it is ammo I can relyon it is worht it. The only reason some of us went looking for other powders is the limited availability of Viht.

My favorite load in a limited gun is still 5.0g N320 on a MG 180jhp loaded at 1.200oal.

[RePete]

Clays is best I found for .40 major, I used Titegroup for years with never a problem, but clays feels so much better.

I saw someone mention Universal Clays earlier in the thread, don't get that mixed up with Clays, they are both very different.

And don't that mixed up with Alliant Clays.

[Bob Hostetter]

PB by IMR is my favorite powder for the 40. It is a porous base powder with a burn rate a little faster then WST, a little slower then Titegroup, close to N320.

Meters well, burns cleans, soft recoil......

[Carlos]

I would like to start a discussion on what you think is the absolute best powder for 40 MAJOR.

Good idea. Problem is: there are an infinite number of ways to define "best."

We are working with the following variables (please consider these when advocating your favorite powder):

-cost?

-availability?

-Jacketed, plated, coated, or lead?

-Weight? (180 or 200?)

-OAL? (i.e. 1.150" for normal guns, but up to 1.240" in 1911/2011s).

-safety?

-is a major .40 load published? (not the same as "safety" - ie some powders do not have published Major data)?

-cleanliness?

-"Margin" over major? (i.e. - are you OK with 167 PF or do you require 175PF to sleep through the night?)

-accuracy?

I do not shoot my SV much anymore (actually, I don't shoot much these days). But if I did, I would take advantage of the extreme OAL allowed and use the very fastest powder I could get my hands on: N-310. Its not a published load, but its not crazy either - in fact its mentioned on TGO's site. I also prevent any possibility of set-back using an EGW U die and prevent double charges with an XL-650 mounted powder check die. N310 costs a lot. If I couldn't get it, I'd use Clays or I'd use Solo 1000 (which has PUBLISHED Major data).

As is, I usually load "short" (1.160"). Considering cost, cleanliness, burn rate (on the chart anyway) and availability, I use Solo 1000 and I am very pleased with it's performance.

Edited January 17, 2008 by Carlos

[JD40]

Clays is best I found for .40 major, I used Titegroup for years with never a problem, but clays feels so much better.

I saw someone mention Universal Clays earlier in the thread, don't get that mixed up with Clays, they are both very different.

And don't that mixed up with Alliant Clays.

Any info on this? I understand this to be a new powder from Alliant to compete with the other H. Clays. Anybody tried it?

[Theo Carter]

I use 5.2gr. Universal Clays with a Montana Gold 180gr. fmj at an oal of 1.190 for a pf of 169. It's soft and clean.

[AustinMike]

I've been using Power Pistol. Around 6gr. with a 180 FMJ is major for me at 1.135" out of a Glock. Recoil is a bit punchy but not too bad IMO. It fills the case about half way, so a double charge would be obvious. I like the extra safety margin of the slower burn, especially in a factory Glock barrel. I've tried Titegroup - it was hot and sooty, but recoil was fairly soft. I got really weird erractic ejection out my G22 though, causing some jams. Only happened with Titegroup. That could probably be fixed with some recoil spring adjustment, but I never messed with it. I've used Universal Clays, but only with moly coated bullets, where it was real smokey. Seems like Clays and Universal Clays both have a noticable puff of smoke with any bullet if wind is calm. With moly coated bullets and no wind, I can't see my front sight after the first shot with Universal. Haven't experimented with FMJs with it yet, but I probably will since I still have a few pounds of it. I imagine it might be a tad softer than Power Pistol, but again, I kind of like the extra fudge factor of the slower powder against bullet setback. Power Pistol is around $55 for 4 pounds at Sportsmans Warehouse, which is nice for a cheap guy like me.

[JakeMartens]

anybody tried this yet?

LONGSHOT™ This new spherical shotshell powder is the most versatile heavy field propellant Hodgdon has ever produced. Great field loads in 10 ga., 12 ga., 16 ga., 20 ga., and 28 ga. are shown herein. This propellant provides true magnum velocities with superb patterns. In addition, LONGSHOT is the best choice for those competitors shooting "race" games such as "Buddy" shoots, "Annie Oakleys" and more. LONGSHOT makes it possible to make USPSA Major with the 38 Super and it produces Major loads in the 40 S&W and 357 SIG at lower than usual operating pressures. Available in 1 lb., 4 lb. & 8 lb. containers.

from hogdon's website

[JD40]

anybody tried this yet?

LONGSHOT™ This new spherical shotshell powder is the most versatile heavy field propellant Hodgdon has ever produced. Great field loads in 10 ga., 12 ga., 16 ga., 20 ga., and 28 ga. are shown herein. This propellant provides true magnum velocities with superb patterns. In addition, LONGSHOT is the best choice for those competitors shooting "race" games such as "Buddy" shoots, "Annie Oakleys" and more. LONGSHOT makes it possible to make USPSA Major with the 38 Super and it produces Major loads in the 40 S&W and 357 SIG at lower than usual operating pressures. Available in 1 lb., 4 lb. & 8 lb. containers.

from hogdon's website

this sounds like an interesting powder. I dont belive I have seen it before( I dont load for shotguns), is it new?

[JakeMartens]

Yes it is new. My Dad picked up 8pounds of it off a prize table and was asking me about it, and I had no clue about it. Did some checking on the hogdon's website and he called out and talked to them. They don't have alot of load data yet on it, so I was wondering if anyone else had tried it yet.

Not sure how it would work in making major in comp guns since it is advertised as using lower pressure, so it is a slower burning powder, but in 40s&w it might make a nice soft load.

here is what they have for load data:

Cartridge: 40 S&W

Load Type: Pistol

Starting Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maximum Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Order BW Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

135 GR. NOS JHP 135 Longshot .400" 1.125" 10.5 1367 28,100 PSI 12.0 1480 32,400 PSI

155 GR. HDY XTP 155 Longshot .400" 1.125" 8.5 1244 29,800 PSI 10.0 1329 32,300 PSI

165 GR. SIE JHP 165 Longshot .400" 1.125" 7.3 1139 29,600 PSI 7.8 1185 33,400 PSI

180 GR. HDY XTP 180 Longshot .400" 1.125" 6.5 1009 25,000 PSI 8.0 1159 32,300 PSI

200 GR. HDY XTP 200 Longshot .400" 1.125" 5.0 836 23,900 PSI 6.0 954 32,500 PSI

NEVER EXCEED MAXIMUM LOADS

Edited January 17, 2008 by fortyfiveshooter

[LeoHallak]

In my Witness Elite Limited 40 I run..

4.6 Clays

180gr Zero JHP

OAL: 1.170

Usually around 169 PF.

Leo