Clamshell Pressure Plate

[G-ManBart]

First off, I'm posting this not as sour grapes, but rather, in the hopes it will prevent someone else from learning an annoying lesson the way I did. Many people here will know what match this was, so let's not discuss that part of it...this is simply a learning point for everyone, not a criticism of the match or the people involved.

At a recent match there was a stage with a clamshell pressure plate that you stepped on to release a mover at the back of the range. This was the final shooting position that you entered by opening a door, stepping through and hitting the activator. There was also a popper right in front of you, a swinger slightly to your left and a static target off to the right a bit. The mover started out slowly and then went pretty fast, so the smart plan was to go through the door, step on the clamshell, hit the popper, index up to where the mover would appear, hit it as it came out and was going slowly then take the static target and the swinger.

Here's what happened: I stepped through the doorway, hit the popper as I was stepping onto the clamshell (gotta admit hitting it on the move was pretty cool), indexed up to where the mover was supposed to come out and nothing happened I moved my feet a little and then bounced up and down a couple of times...finally the mover came out, I engaged it and then hit the swinger which was waving at me (mocking I think) and totally forgot about the static target in the confusion of trying to figure out what had just happened....it was off to the side enough to not be in my line of sight. I'm not going to make an excuse about forgetting the static target, but I think everyone has experienced what happens when you get thrown off your plan by something crazy...not much good is going to happen.

The RO's call was shooter failure and not range failure. I politely asked for a RM/MD decision (can't recall whether he was the RM or MD) and he agreed with the RO. I was told that we'd had plenty of time to test the activator and I don't disagree. When I tested it I guess I stepped far enough forward to activate it so it didn't occur to me to check different foot positions to make sure it would always activate. I commented that I realized nothing was going to change my score, it might not be a bad idea to consider lightening the spring a little (after the match, of course) so the same thing couldn't happen again....I wasn't thrilled with the reply that it had never happened before, so it really wasn't worth "fixing" or something similar, but it's their show and not mine. It seems to be a bit silly to have an activator that you can be standing on with both feet and not have it work, but it might just be the nature of the device.

I think the learning point is pretty obvious. If I ever see an activator like this again, I'm going to make sure I get way the heck on the front of it and stomp the hell out of it!

On a related note, and something that didn't really occur to me until later was that after the RO called the range clear and we were talking about the activator he started messing around with the plate and checking how it was adjusted. I'm certain he was only doing this out of curiosity and probably checking to make sure nothing was broken, which I can understand and don't hold against him at all. I probably would have done the same thing...sorta "what the heck?" I should have asked him not to touch it so it was in the same condition when the RM/MD got there....sort of like not touching a popper that didn't fall. It probably would have been a BS additional protest, but the RO did change the way the device was adjusted so who's to say it was correct during my run? When I demonstrated what happened to the RM/MD I stood on the plate and the mover still didn't come out, so it's not likely much was changed, but it's still something to keep in mind.

So, that was two mikes, an FTE, plus all the time waiting, moving my feet and bouncing up and down...40 points and additional time. By my rough estimate the points alone dropped me ten places in the overall order and cost me some cash back for being top 3 in class. The positive thing was that it made me just mad enough at myself to get fired up which led to two top-5 stages that pulled me back into the game a little.

If you ever see one of these evil devices, stomp it like you want to break it!

Edited January 15, 2008 by G-ManBart

[JThompson]

First off, I'm posting this not as sour grapes, but rather, in the hopes it will prevent someone else from learning an annoying lesson the way I did. Many people here will know what match this was, so let's not discuss that part of it...this is simply a learning point for everyone, not a criticism of the match or the people involved.

At a recent match there was a stage with a clamshell pressure plate that you stepped on to release a mover at the back of the range. This was the final shooting position that you entered by opening a door, stepping through and hitting the activator. There was also a popper right in front of you, a swinger slightly to your left and a static target off to the right a bit. The mover started out slowly and then went pretty fast, so the smart plan was to go through the door, step on the clamshell, hit the popper, index up to where the mover would appear, hit it as it came out and was going slowly then take the static target and the swinger.

Here's what happened: I stepped through the doorway, hit the popper as I was stepping onto the clamshell (gotta admit hitting it on the move was pretty cool), indexed up to where the mover was supposed to come out and nothing happened I moved my feet a little and then bounced up and down a couple of times...finally the mover came out, I engaged it and then hit the swinger which was waving at me (mocking I think) and totally forgot about the static target in the confusion of trying to figure out what had just happened....it was off to the side enough to not be in my line of sight. I'm not going to make an excuse about forgetting the static target, but I think everyone has experienced what happens when you get thrown off your plan by something crazy...not much good is going to happen.

The RO's call was shooter failure and not range failure. I politely asked for a RM/MD decision (can't recall whether he was the RM or MD) and he agreed with the RO. I was told that we'd had plenty of time to test the activator and I don't disagree. When I tested it I guess I stepped far enough forward to activate it so it didn't occur to me to check different foot positions to make sure it would always activate. I commented that I realized nothing was going to change my score, it might not be a bad idea to consider lightening the spring a little (after the match, of course) so the same thing couldn't happen again....I wasn't thrilled with the reply that it had never happened before, so it really wasn't worth "fixing" or something similar, but it's their show and not mine. It seems to be a bit silly to have an activator that you can be standing on with both feet and not have it work, but it might just be the nature of the device.

I think the learning point is pretty obvious. If I ever see an activator like this again, I'm going to make sure I get way the heck on the front of it and stomp the hell out of it!

On a related note, and something that didn't really occur to me until later was that after the RO called the range clear and we were talking about the activator he started messing around with the plate and checking how it was adjusted. I'm certain he was only doing this out of curiosity and probably checking to make sure nothing was broken, which I can understand and don't hold against him at all. I probably would have done the same thing...sorta "what the heck?" I should have asked him not to touch it so it was in the same condition when the RM/MD got there....sort of like not touching a popper that didn't fall. It probably would have been a BS additional protest, but the RO did change the way the device was adjusted so who's to say it was correct during my run? When I demonstrated what happened to the RM/MD I stood on the plate and the mover still didn't come out, so it's not likely much was changed, but it's still something to keep in mind.

So, that was two mikes, an FTE, plus all the time waiting, moving my feet and bouncing up and down...40 points and additional time. By my rough estimate the points alone dropped me ten places in the overall order and cost me some cash back for being top 3 in class. The positive thing was that it made me just mad enough at myself to get fired up which led to two top-5 stages that pulled me back into the game a little.

If you ever see one of these evil devices, stomp it like you want to break it!

No adjustment should have been made to that prop until the RM was there. The thing is that it DID activate the target. If you had stopped before it had finally went you might have a better case, but they still may have ruled against you and it would have been worse. I think if a shooter is standing on a pad and it doesn't activate you have a range failure. You shouldn't have to play hopscotch to get the thing to go. It should only take a few pounds to get one to go if adjusted properly...

It's kinda like the shot popper that doesn't fall, as apposed taking two or three shots to drop it... once it's down it's down and you can't call for a calib.

As to having plenty of time to inspect the prop... I've never been at a match where they let you step on one... it is always an RO that gives you a look or sometimes one shooter will give the look to the squad.

Edited January 15, 2008 by JThompson

[Ron Ankeny]

I am really curious who made the prop. I have built several along the lines of the one available from R&R and the problem I have is making them heavy enough so they don't activate when a magazine is thrown at them.

In any event, if I was the RO, I would have called range equipment failure if I saw the prop fail even if it subsequently activated while you jumped up and down on it like a pogo stick. Note: I said if I saw the failure. Just because the prop finally worked is no reason to screw the shooter. For instance, what would you do if a drop turner hung up on edge and wouldn't fall, then a gust of wind came along and the prop worked while the shooter and RO were standing there discussing a reshoot? Somewhere along the line some common sense needs to prevail.

[kevin c]

If this is the activator I'm thinking of (usually red, about 2 1/2 ft square, with a pair of spring powered rods under two hinged panels), I agree that, while a very well made piece of equipment, it is still possible for it to be set up incorrectly.

Occasionally, the rods can be pulled back too far, so that only one of the two panels will actually trigger the mechanism. It is also possible to set the rods so that neither will trigger.

Whenever we use these props at club matches, we make sure that everybody at the walkthrough knows how to reset the clamshell. At majors that we host, the dedicated RO's know what to do, and pass that on to any subsequents RO's for the stage.

If competitor clearly has stepped on the activator and nothing happens, our assumption is REF, not shooter error.

My $0.02

ETA: Once activated, as was the case here, no evidence will remain of an incorrect setup, but if a shooter has to hop up and down on this type of activator, even if it goes off, locally, that's likely to be called REF, and a knowlegeable RO would stop right there and reset.

Edited January 16, 2008 by kevin c

[zhunter]

"Hell, I was there"

It seemed a bit odd to me to not get a re-shoot.

Just my .02

[XD Niner]

G-Man, you have obviously missed the underlying crux of the problem. If you were simply 50 pounds heavier the activator would have worked as designed. Therefore, in order to further your USPSA career, you will need to start drinking much more beer. Geez, I love it when the solution is so simple and enjoyable.

[scribble]

G-Man, you have obviously missed the underlying crux of the problem. If you were simply 50 pounds heavier the activator would have worked as designed. Therefore, in order to further your USPSA career, you will need to start drinking much more beer. Geez, I love it when the solution is so simple and enjoyable.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers:

[ChuckS]

If you steped on it and it did not activate, it is a REF. I doesn't matter than "it didn't happen before". It failed! There was clearly something wrong with it since all the ones I have set were very likely to trigger unless you were VERY careful putting the boards down on the activator. There is no calibration like your non-falling popper. You impled you had both feet on it. That should do it!

Sorry,

Chuck

[GentlemanJim]

The plate Bart is talking about was not a regular activator

It was a plate hinged at the front end with springs holding the far end up.

When depressed it closed a switch and tripped an electric mover.

You had to get WAY up on it to depress it enough to activate.

Bart was just unlucky that he was not far enough forward to trip it.

I would most likely have given him a reshoot...and it had to be a hard call for the RO!

Bart did not whine about the equipment or the call!!!

He is only warning us to be vigilant

Jim

[ChuckS]

The plate Bart is talking about was not a regular activator

It was a plate hinged at the front end with springs holding the far end up.

When depressed it closed a switch and tripped an electric mover.

You had to get WAY up on it to depress it enough to activate.

Bart was just unlucky that he was not far enough forward to trip it.

I would most likely have given him a reshoot...and it had to be a hard call for the RO!

Bart did not whine about the equipment or the call!!!

He is only warning us to be vigilant

Jim

I thought we were talking about one of these! Like I said, it is hard to NOT set them off when resetting them.

Thanks,

Chuck

PS: It does sound like they could back off on the springs though!

[lcs]

I don't believe it matters what kind of activator, if he stepped on it and it did not work..........

I saw almost the exact same happen at Summer Blast last year.

I can not swear it was the same activator, but it looked very close. The stage started off with you hitting the activator with a hammer and off you go.

One of the guys on our squad hit the activator with the hammer and nothing happened. The shooter just stood there and did not move. I remember very clearly the second RO (RO with the score sheets) yelled, The clocks running! and still the shooter just stood there like a statue. The RO finally issued "If you are finished unload and show clear and then IF clear hammer down holster.

Needless to say, a lot of opinions were thrown around and the shooter requested the RM/MD who happened to be a very well known NROI instructor. The ruling was "Range equipment failure". The shooter was given a reshoot.

I later talked to the RM/MD as I was learning to be an RO and wanted his view. I believe he told me since you can not calibrate the device and the shooter did not proceed, it was range equipment failure.

I shot a sectional match with a Texas Star and screwed up I believe. I got a direct hit on one of the stars and the star fell, but was hanging half on half off. Like a dumba$$ I shot three more shots, hitting the star three more times till it finally fell off. Looking back, I should have stopped and just stood there. I do believe I would have got a reshoot for range equipment failure.

Para 4.6.1 of the January 2008 Rule Book pretty much covers mechanically or electrically operated equipment. 4.6.2 states what action is to be taken if the competor can not complete the course of fire.

[G-ManBart]

I thought we were talking about one of these! Like I said, it is hard to NOT set them off when resetting them.

Thanks,

Chuck

PS: It does sound like they could back off on the springs though!

Yeah, that kind is almost impossible to not set off...I wish it had been that kind! As Jim mentioned, it was hinged at the back so that it closed like an alligator's mouth when you put weight on it...that closed a circuit which started the mover.

The more I think about it, I sorta shrug my shoulders and realize stuff happens. I'm still not thrilled with the decision or the particular piece of equipment, but I'm also not thrilled with my lack of attention to detail in stage prep. I really had the stage burned into my head, so I thought I was golden. You know the times when you can close your eyes and see the stage play out with great detail....so I was pretty pumped when it was my turn to shoot. Now, I remember standing with my feet on either side of the activator when I did my practice walk-throughs...I did that so I wouldn't keep sending the mover back and forth. Next time, you can be assured I'll be standing right where I plan to go during the stage and the heck with the prop....if it breaks, that's not my problem

The bummer is really that it was a pretty cool stage and I shot the first two positions well....a likely solid run in the trash because of something silly.

[pjb45]

It is the responsibility of the shooter to activate the pressure plate. So it is really not a range failure because he did not step on it correctly. There was not course failure at that point.

However, that stage did have several range failures for our squad. In fact I thought we were never going to get off that stage.

[GentlemanJim]

When you see a guy standing both feet planted on the activator...bouncing up and down...and it dont trip

I personally think that would be a problem

jim

[ChuckS]

When you see a guy standing both feet planted on the activator...bouncing up and down...and it dont trip

I personally think that would be a problem

jim

[kevin c]

I kind of think that it's the responsibility of the stage designer to make sure that props work consistently for all competitors, and that if there is clearly some way where the shooter follows the WSD (here, to step on the activator to activate the mover), but doesn't get the intended result, it's a design flaw that should be corrected, by changing the activator or pointing out to all competitors that you have to step here, not there, on the activator to make it work, or otherwise have to deal with lots of REF or even risk having the stage tossed.

[G-ManBart]

It is the responsibility of the shooter to activate the pressure plate. So it is really not a range failure because he did not step on it correctly. There was not course failure at that point.

However, that stage did have several range failures for our squad. In fact I thought we were never going to get off that stage.

Paul,

I'm certainly not arguing, but how can you be standing with both feet fully on an activator plate and call that "not stepping on it correctly?" If I only had one foot on it, or just my toes on it, then I would totally agree...that wasn't the case. I could easily stand with my toes smack in the middle of it and it didn't work.

I think a case could be made for 4.6.1 "Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors..."

I shouldn't have to move forward to the end of an activator plate just to get it to operate when someone that weighs a lot more than I do only has to barely get on it....especially when there's a 30" dropoff on the far edge of the activator. I actually thought about that during the walkthrough...."don't go charging in there hot and slide off the porch" For me to get the activator to work when just standing on it, my toes had to be near the front edge.

As always, the easy way would have been to go in there just like I did, but stomp down on it with my first foot to make sure it worked....I don't think that should be necessary, but at least it would have prevented the problem

Edited January 18, 2008 by G-ManBart

[raz-0]

It is the responsibility of the shooter to activate the pressure plate. So it is really not a range failure because he did not step on it correctly. There was not course failure at that point.

However, that stage did have several range failures for our squad. In fact I thought we were never going to get off that stage.

If the equipment is so touchy that there is a right and wrong way to stand on it with both feet, don't put it in the match. It's the shooter's responsibility to shoot the popper and knock it over. But if they are shooting 127pf ammo, and the popper was set up for shotgun from the 3-gun match the weekend before, there isn't any way the shooter can do that. that's why it is called range equipment failure. It isn't set up right. Kind of like falling plates. They are supposed to fall. The shooter is SUPPOSED to knock it down. But if it just pivots... it's REF.