How fast do you know you hit the target?

[el pres]

It's helpful to keep anything you do to "make the shot," and, "the call" in two distinctly different categories.

No one eles can put it better into words!!! We need beyond fundamentals volume 2!!!!!

That makes me think, if I'm to overfocused on making the shot I dont have that much left for calling..

If I'm shooting the berm, theres more attention to a flash picture. Now to put it all together..

[Flexmoney]

The mind says OK...there it is...and it races off to the next thing.

+1

I am in this sort of area in my shootinmg right now. I see them but the intense follow through comes and goes.

I found myself making up shots on steel in splits when the original shot still knicked it but I saw my sights were off.

Someone may say, why did you shoot that twice, I dont know, I saw the sights off (total reflex,awsome). But then the next

day I'm practicing 25yd head shots and am not sure where the shot went .I know the sights were there but something got

lost in my attention. I am thinking something like, if I'm really trying it does not work (staring)..

If I go and shoot a berm, in about two mags or so I'm tuned back in, but its not there on call just subconciouse at times..

Although, some of the best groups I ever shot freehand have been staring at the ft sight kind of glazed over not seeing the

target at all, just the sights foating in space...

I think you probably addressed your own issue within your post.

I know the sights were there but something got lost in my attention

.

Chances are, you had some other thought on your mind besides seeing the sight/dot lift. Perhaps you were caring about (making) the outcome happen, not just observing? "Trying" to see something, instead of letting your self see?

If I go and shoot a berm, in about two mags or so I'm tuned back in, but its not there on call just subconciouse at times..

Why might that work? Shooting into the berm takes away the target...takes away any desire (trying) to hit anything...takes away the expectations. It allows the shooter to remove the distractions that get in the way of seeing the front sight/dot lift.

Although, some of the best groups I ever shot freehand have been staring at the ft sight kind of glazed over not seeing the target at all, just the sights foating in space...

Focus there...not on the outcome, but on seeing the sights?

[el pres]

Thanks Flex!

Bottom line, more practice!!! I'm getting there and you guys and this forum have been the

biggest help. Just talking shooting so much has been such a motivator to get out there cold or

not and try new things...

[carinab]

<snip>

For IPSC shooters, the sights are usually in motion when the shot breaks. So with practice, eventually you must learn to "Read to Call." (You can't read if your eyes aren't moving.)

Wow....I'd never thought of it with that imagery before but it defines it perfectly. Outstanding Mr. Enos!

[Sam]

It's helpful to keep anything you do to "make the shot," and, "the call" in two distinctly different categories.

Brian, thanks for pointing that out. I've never realized that before. I'm having problems getting the level of accuracy that I want to achieve consistently. Your guidance is greatly appreciated! -Sam

[benos]

Thanks Carina.

To really and truly have ALL your attention and care ONLY on "Reading the Sights" is extremely difficult to do. Because so many other things, some useful and some not, use up our attention. Such as: Target order; is the shot "easy" or "hard"; where does my left foot need to be when I enter this position; I want to win; I don't want to lose; I don't think I can beat my competitor's run on this stage; I need to shoot fast(er); I'm going to make up for my last stage on this stage; it's the Nationals!; I just won my first big match last weekend and now I'm shooting like crap; I want to call all my shots, and so on.

It takes a tremendously strong commitment to abandon any form of trying anything whatsoever and just allow yourself to see everything that is actually happening. But if you can do it what happens will be magical.

Before actually shooting a COF, put everything you think about into one of two categories: What is useful, and what isn't. When you notice that something you are thinking about is not useful or even detrimental, let it go. That takes care of one category. For the necessary and useful thoughts, work through them (target order; where you'll do a mag change; visualization, etc.) until you reach certainty, which means you don't need to think about them any longer. The goal being to reach the starting gate calm, determined, and doubt free. You've let go of everything, now just SEE.

be

[j1b]

It took a 9X25 to teach me to "read the call" I've never referred to it like that, but I understand what it means.

The thing I liked about the 9X25 is that there was no muzzle movement. So when I imparted action on the gun, and was able to see the corresponding effect after the stage/drill/shot etc. I started to understand there was so much more to the game than simply seeing the sight rise. Now, seeing the sight rise will get you a hell of a long ways in the sport. But when you reach that plateau of . . . whatever 95% of ability . . . little things like reading the call come into factor.

The thing I preach, but sometimes don't practice, is to understand the root of what needs to be fixed. Brian's post makes me think about goals. Because if we can own the right goal, then the process can begin. If we own the wrong goal, the process is tedious beyond comprehension.

As I think about this, I have to ask what my goal is while shooting. Not after the shooting, but while shooting. If I could define that as seeing the sights as they should be then I'd be good. Because the accomplishment of that goal while shooting would by default cause my post shooting goal of good hits on the targets to happen.

It is tough for me to get out of my own way and work like that though. Too many times I contemplate a stage in terms of "hits" and not in terms of a goal of seeing. Shooting production has really helped with that, knowing I HAVE to see correctly because lost points will kill me. Production has forced me to have vision.

Interestingly I sometimes think shooting open hurt my ability to see. Or at least to maximize my ability to see. I remember one match in CA where I was shooting well. Stages were going well, no misses, etc. I was dropping points on targets though and it was a little baffling. Jay Christy was helping tape targets on one stage and he points out that on the targets it's like when I was on brown I was shooting. Shots were solid, but I was only seeing a red dot and a brown background. I wasn't getting the gun positioned on target. It's amazing I didn't have more misses at that match. And as I think about it I bet I was really dialed into the gun because had I not been things would have been much uglier. Just typing about this match made me remember it was an Area 2 match in San Diego many years ago. I lost the match by 23 point to TGO. On a stage I did have one miss/no-shoot. Our host (of this web site) was kind enough to point out had I not had that penalty I probably would have won . . . thanks Brian . . .

Sometimes though I believe vernacular gets in my way. I can recall times where I'll say something like "I need to shoot two A's on all targets in this array" What??? That thought process is all wrong. What I needed to invision is my sights and gun as they needed to be in order to get two A's. Not a goal of two A's. A goal of seeing what I needed to see. If I accomplish that goal, the two A's will simply be waiting for me when it's time to score targets.

Nice post Brian. Well put.

J

[Sam]

"Things that use up our attention", yes.

Why does it seem so difficult to wait? Waiting apparently requires no activity at all, so why is no activity so hard to permit? There is really nothing I can do until the moment for the shot becomes right.

The concept of "waiting" can cover a lot of territory, let me focus on what Brian has very aptly referred to as "visual patience" in shooting. All of the goals and such are things that we desire. In typical human haste to satisfy a goal and to "own" the performance, the result, the stage, whatever, we fail to surrender to the action required to reach the goal. We attempt to seize the goal in an instant, instead of surrendering to, and therefore merging with it.

I'm going to try something today. I'm going to shoot strings of ten shots on an 8" plate at 50 yards. The goal will be ten hits out of ten. I don't think I have ever accomplished that. No par time. I'm going to let my training with the pistol run things in the background, while I attempt to clearly focus on "the call". Then I will attempt to clearly focus on the fundamentals of "making the shot", and let "the call" run in the background. (I think this is the way I have formerly been shooting.) Anyway, I have no expectation of what will be learned. I'll just learn.

[joecichlid]

It has taken me about five years but I am getting there. Slowly I am able to call my shots quicker and more accuratly at that. This Friday night I shot a stage that had eight steel, five full sized poppers and three mini popper at nine and eight yards respective, as well as twelve paper. Although I didn't shoot the stage in the fastest way I could have I did shoot it clean, called my shots on just about every target. I still need work but I am getting better, when I shot the steel I put eight rounds on eight steel and never saw the first one fall. I just KNEW I hit them, knew my dot was right on that popper as the dot started to rise when the shot broke. On all but the last four paper I knew right where that dot was when the shots broke, the last four paper were pretty close to me and spread evenly so I must confess I got sloppy and hosed them. Although I knew I had some C's and a D in there I was happy with my time so I didn't go back and shoot all A's.

With my score being almost 88% of one of the best M class shooters in the area I am very pleased with that stage. Not so much with how I shot the stage but how I called my shots. I still need to work on shooting efficiantly and moving smoothly. I easily could have shaved a second and half or more off the time if I had shot in a different order but I see this week as a step forward.

The second stage was pretty much the same even though there were four targets covered with soft cover, I think I only dropped a few C's in there on that array if I recall correctly. No matter what I am slowly learning and getting better and as long as I do better than myself I am happy. To me it doesn't matter if I win or finish in last place as long as I do better than I did the week before and learn something new.

Joe W.

[Sam]

I observed several things yesterday. For one, ten straight plates at 50 yards still eludes me. I did manage two runs of nine out of ten, which is an improvement. Offhand, it's very hard for me to stay still enough to get ten in a row.

Seperating "making the shot" and "the call" into two distinctly different actions is a very productive thing to do. At this point, it is also a pretty elusive skill. Typically, when shooting steel, I instinctively want to call the sound instead of the sights. I finally thought back to what Brian said about calling "the instant the sight lifts", which is of course before the bullet reaches the target and the sound is reflected back. If I concentrated on seeing before hearing, the calls were accurate. I found myself, on occassion, calling which 1/4 of the plate the hits were going to be on. With the plate appearing to be the same width as my front sight, that revelation was satisfying indeed. Out of all the fundamentals of shooting, this one and "following through" are probably the most dificult for me to remain aware of throughout the cycle.

I also noticed that looking too hard for the sight lift doesn't work well for me. I will tend to let my attention to trigger control lapse and botch the shot. I have to place the required amount of attention on trigger control and simply allow myself to see the sight lift. This has been a very sloppy area of my shooting, I will improve here.

[iweiny]

Although, some of the best groups I ever shot freehand have been staring at the ft sight kind of glazed over not seeing the target at all, just the sights foating in space...

Focus there...not on the outcome, but on seeing the sights?

Sometimes I think this is the true root of the problem. Focusing on the outcome of things is so often counter productive. Not just in shooting but in life.

Focus on the things which will achieve your goal, and the goal will follow.

Ira

[shooterbenedetto]

The way I see it is like the samurai warriors. To train like a samurai, you must train yourself the perfect motions and skills so many times that it actually becomes a REFLEX ACTION!!! NOW YOU HAVE JUST ENTERED A WHOLE NEW DIMENSION OF SHOOTING.Sicnce we are humans, now pull back once in a while and pretend you are flying above yourself and observe. Call your mistakes, dedicate and work on making it better or should I say CLOSE TO LIKE A MACHINE. 1) REFLEX SHOOTING SKILLS ALL THE WAY!!!!!! 2) FLOW AND BE LIKE WATER!!(bruce lee)

[Jake Di Vita]

I agree to a point.

The reason the samurai trained that way was obviously for combat, which is an ever changing environment that can't be predicted (hence the quote from Bruce Lee - flow like water so you can constantly adapt to the changing environment).

In shooting, although the process is based on awareness and vision it is largely a predetermined activity through visualization and planning. Flowing like water is great if the shit hits the fan, but proper preparation and execution out weighs it all.

[j1b]

I observed several things yesterday. For one, ten straight plates at 50 yards still eludes me. I did manage two runs of nine out of ten, which is an improvement. Offhand, it's very hard for me to stay still enough to get ten in a row.

Seperating "making the shot" and "the call" into two distinctly different actions is a very productive thing to do. At this point, it is also a pretty elusive skill. Typically, when shooting steel, I instinctively want to call the sound instead of the sights. I finally thought back to what Brian said about calling "the instant the sight lifts", which is of course before the bullet reaches the target and the sound is reflected back. If I concentrated on seeing before hearing, the calls were accurate. I found myself, on occassion, calling which 1/4 of the plate the hits were going to be on. With the plate appearing to be the same width as my front sight, that revelation was satisfying indeed. Out of all the fundamentals of shooting, this one and "following through" are probably the most dificult for me to remain aware of throughout the cycle.

I also noticed that looking too hard for the sight lift doesn't work well for me. I will tend to let my attention to trigger control lapse and botch the shot. I have to place the required amount of attention on trigger control and simply allow myself to see the sight lift. This has been a very sloppy area of my shooting, I will improve here.

This, to me, exemplifies what the definition of goals are. True goals, and relative goals.

The relative goal is to see what you need to. The true goal is shots on target. If we focus on the true goal, we don't focus on what we need to (read into that the process of seeing). If we focus on the relative goal - seeing what we need to - then the true goal will be achieved (good hits).

I try to look at things in terms of pre-stage and post-stage. If I do things right pre-stage then things work out. If I focus on post stage goals before I shoot . . . 9 times out of 10 it's ugly.

At the end of the day this is about seeing, and then inherently understanding what you see.

J

[Flexmoney]

Great stuff, great thread...

The true goal is shots on target. If we focus on the true goal, we don't focus on what we need to (read into that the process of seeing). If we focus on the relative goal - seeing what we need to - then the true goal will be achieved (good hits).

Here is how I like to think of it, if it is any use to anybody...

Our goal isn't just accuracy. We have that aspect of time in there too.

Accuracy - Time

Some shooters are better at one than the other...or they make one the goal over the other. There is a desire to approach the shooting with accuracy and speed pitted against each other...duality...to balance accuracy and speed.

I try not to think of the two as give and take. In fact, duality (and yin/yang) don't really work for me any more.

I refuse to believe that I have to give up accuracy to get speed (or vice-versa).

Our USPSA game is about the highest hit factor. There are three aspects to our hit factor...DVC. The power aspect is going to be a constant. It may help us define what an acceptable hit is, but it really is a constant. We are either major, Minor, or out. That leaves us with accuracy and speed to determine hit factor...points per second.

If we view hit factor as points per second...then we might end up back at that balance thing. Instead, with regards to my shooting, I view it as efficiency.

My best shooting comes when I have properly defined the target SPOT (visualization of the aim small, miss hit small idea), then I go about executing the stage in an efficient manner.

A shooter's confidence in their skill sets (practice and/or a REALLY strong mindset) lets them "just shoot". "Just shoot" means, to me, that I don't have to add in extra conscious thought to execute the stage. I don't have worries or doubts, I have trust. My mind is free to observe. And, when it does observe, I see, with certainty, allowing the (human shooting) machine to work with efficiency.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Flexmoney

[JoDaSMor]

Oh my! This is enlightening.

Thanks Brian, AikiDale, Flexmoney and others for your inputs.

I've bookmarked this thread and IT IS NOW MY BIBLE that I keep on reading-and trying to do everytime.

Thinking just because I'm a senior open shooter (who started late in this sport), I had to prove that I can still run as fast as the younger ones and I was after speed ONLY. Justifying that good scoring will come afterwards. Results: mikes. I was just pointing the dot and fire...rapid fire.

Many had advised for me to go slower and make sure hits-I was stubborn. This thread opened my brain.

Had been dry firing copycat of AikiDale style. Consciously, before I pull the trigger-I make sure that the red dot is "IN" the small ONE DOLLAR coin I painted in boards'A-Zone and in center of round plates. CONSCIOUSLY, I looked at the dot very clearly in front of hazy DOLLAR-CIRCLE PAINT...then pull. When I dash to the range this week-I know there will be improvement.

Thanks a lot.

[Sam]

If we focus on the relative goal - seeing what we need to - then the true goal will be achieved (good hits).

-j1b

My best shooting comes when I have properly defined the target SPOT (visualization of the aim small, miss small idea), then I go about executing the stage in an efficient manner.

- Flexmoney

Those two ideas really identify for me where my improvement needs to be made. I already have the skills to make the hit. What I've been failing at, is realizing that shooting skill will not manifest under time pressure, when no as Jack calls it, "relative goal" has been set. In other words, without a goal, I'm planning for the shot to be "a hoper".

I've been looking for the answer in my fundamentals. What I needed to do was to take my "Practical Shooting Beyond Fundamentals".

Thanks for the help guys!

And welcome the sport JoDaSMor! All that stuff about old dogs and new tricks is a bunch of hokum. Most of them tricks ain't new anyway, some really old dogs have seem 'em all before.

[bigsaxdog]

great thread! the "zen-ness" and the concept of the essence of things is really universal, translatable into everything we do. it's really what life's all about......but lemme tell ya', Ghost Dog, after reading this all, if you play your cards right, you might be able to get a "happy ending" outta all this......

[JFD]

Great thread!

I may be slow on my feet, but I've actually won Limited locally because I don't shoot hopers and I can do so quickly.

Of course that has to be a pre-heart attack statement.

[carinab]

but lemme tell ya', Ghost Dog, after reading this all, if you play your cards right, you might be able to get a "happy ending" outta all this......

A happy ending? Does that mean the Ghost Dog will get to play with Schrödinger's Cat since their both dead?

Edited January 16, 2008 by carinab

[bigsaxdog]

this is gettin' good!!!! you definitely got me on the "schrodinger's cat" thing, had to look that one up. never really worried much about whether there was a sound if a tree fell in the forest when there was no one there to hear..... quantum physics ain't really my bag. now ask me about lydian dominants and how John Coltrane might approach them, i could probably go on a bit...... but lemme tell ya', the "happy ending" i was talkin' about ain't got nothin' to do with all that. it does have a chinese root though.......

[JThompson]

To drag this thing back on topic....

I call the shots pretty well, but sometime I find in the heat of battle that my "acceptable" area is wider than it should be. This comes back to what Flex was saying about speed V accuracy. When I do the walk through and look at the shots, I get it setup in my head as to what I'm going to do and how long it should take. I know I know.... Anyway, if I have some problem along the way, say a bad draw cost me a second and my mount brought me to the A zone, but not in the middle or it's tuff to see and I look for something close to center and call it good enough. I break the shot and know where it went, but have accepted, I don't want to say sight picture here... I rather think of this as an "aim-point." Yes, I have accepted an aim point that is an A/C. I know this should not be done, but on certain stages if you take the extra second to shoot the A instead of the A/C then the point you might have lost is not sufficient to slow down more. IN other words, I will have a better HF if I break the A/C instead of waiting for the A. I'm not talking about fractions of seconds on a shot as I will take the time there... I'm talking about .5-1 second stuff.

Edited January 16, 2008 by JThompson

[Flexmoney]

Maku mozo: "A wrong means can never be used towards a right end."

[TM262]

Seeing the sights...

I recently started shooting again after being out with a back injury for 2.5 years. So I am shooting my first stage and it was not until the third target that I realized that I was not looking at my sights, but I was looking for holes in the targets.

I am not up to my 2005 pace yet, but at least I am seeing the sights.

[j1b]

Maku mozo: "A wrong means can never be used towards a right end."

There it is.

J