Bagging vs. Holstering

[mactiger]

On my last stage of 2007 Nationals Open/L10 I got the Rule book thrown at me, (Yes it was thrown at me), Because they told me that the COF doesn't end until my gun is holstered and my hand is off of it, Then i could bag my gun if need be. The whole rest of the match i told the RO's, including this one, that i would like to bag afterwards and they were compliant but I think it was totally rediculous that they had to be A$$holes about it.

I probably didn't help much since I said that It was either bag and then they (3 of them) Told me exclusively holster only and it was a courtisy that RO's let you bag after the CoF. I believe that if you Bag/Holster your weapon in a safe manner that, that procedure ends the CoF.

Sorry to hear that. Did you talk to one of the RM's about this?

Troy

[HoMiE]

Bagging instead of holstering is acceptable. As the RO, or the RM, I would not expect the range officers to carry your bag for you, but if someone brought it up for you, that would be fine. Bag or Holster, in 2008, the COF ends with "Range is Clear". This question comes up in RO seminars, and the answer is the same: bagging is identical to holstering once the competitor is done.

Troy

Thank you for your input.

[JThompson]

Does the RO have to carry the bag? No, but I have to question why they would take on the task if something so small gets their back up then I have to wonder if maybe they shouldn't take up golf or some other sport which doesn't require personal interaction.

In other words... get over yourself and carry the damn bag.

Edited December 16, 2007 by JThompson

[maineshootah]

From another post...."I had a shooter who wanted to go right from shooting to bagging without holstering because he said his holster didn't hold the gun securely,

Ummmm.... isn't THIS the crux of the issue?

If the holster doesn't hold the gun securely, then in my book the shooter doesn't shoot.

What if there is movement before the draw?

If you have to haul a lot of gear a fair distance, or weather is an issue, I don't see any problems with baggin.

But, if the shooter TELLS me that his holster does not hold the gun securely...

Thanks for coming, you aren't shooting here until that issue is fixed.

[HoMiE]

From another post...."I had a shooter who wanted to go right from shooting to bagging without holstering because he said his holster didn't hold the gun securely,

Ummmm.... isn't THIS the crux of the issue?

If the holster doesn't hold the gun securely, then in my book the shooter doesn't shoot.

What if there is movement before the draw?

If you have to haul a lot of gear a fair distance, or weather is an issue, I don't see any problems with baggin.

But, if the shooter TELLS me that his holster does not hold the gun securely...

Thanks for coming, you aren't shooting here until that issue is fixed.

I know a lot of people who just don't like walking around with their guns in a race holster. For the sake of argument, disregard whatever the comment about the holster condition is. The holster is safe enough to hold the gun, I think a better wording would be the shooter does not feel comfortable walking around all match with their gun possibly bumping into something or leaving the gun exposed to the elements. What struck me, was the RO would not let the shooter put the gun, after showing clear, right into the bag. The RO was adamant that the competitor holster the gun first, remove his hand from grip, then they could bag the gun or go to a safety area and bag it.

[JFD]

So I'm already probably(it varies I think) negatively affecting my own performance by ROing, and now I'm supposed to be a freaking bag carrier? Not hardly. My free hand is there to wrestle with a shooter's arm if tragedy is about to happen. Whoever wants to bag their gun should make sure the bag gets where it needs to be.

[Coolduckboy]

I know a lot of people who just don't like walking around with their guns in a race holster. For the sake of argument, disregard whatever the comment about the holster condition is. The holster is safe enough to hold the gun, I think a better wording would be the shooter does not feel comfortable walking around all match with their gun possibly bumping into something or leaving the gun exposed to the elements. What struck me, was the RO would not let the shooter put the gun, after showing clear, right into the bag. The RO was adamant that the competitor holster the gun first, remove his hand from grip, then they could bag the gun or go to a safety area and bag it.

^^ that was my situation at nats.

Hopefully we will get more consistancy with the RO's and how the procedures are supposed to be ran so everyone is on the same page. Especially at an event like nationals.

Edited December 17, 2007 by Coolduckboy

[Coolduckboy]

On my last stage of 2007 Nationals Open/L10 I got the Rule book thrown at me, (Yes it was thrown at me), Because they told me that the COF doesn't end until my gun is holstered and my hand is off of it, Then i could bag my gun if need be. The whole rest of the match i told the RO's, including this one, that i would like to bag afterwards and they were compliant but I think it was totally rediculous that they had to be A$$holes about it.

I probably didn't help much since I said that It was either bag and then they (3 of them) Told me exclusively holster only and it was a courtisy that RO's let you bag after the CoF. I believe that if you Bag/Holster your weapon in a safe manner that, that procedure ends the CoF.

Sorry to hear that. Did you talk to one of the RM's about this?

Troy

I unfortunately didn't. I did talked to a RM about another RO that yelled at me being in a safety area with an unloaded, and no ammo around me, weapon pointed into a burm saying that i needed to stop what i was doing, bag my weapon and wait until the are not down range. (this was over by the Function Fire place)

I haven't shot many major matches but the ones i have shot, This was the one I had the most troubles at with RO's.

[boz1911]

I will occasionally ask to bag, but in a lot of cases it's because we are at the end of the match and my vehicle is quite a ways away. Bagging let's me put my stuff up and the help with teardown or whatever. I also have no problem if someone wants to bag instead of holster.

[uscbigdawg]

First, the issue is NOT bagging vs. holstering. The issue is that we have a shooter who admits his holster can't securely hold his pistol.

Second, as Troy stated, it is not required, implied, eluded to or otherwise that the RO has to let you bag at the end of a stage...and certainly not carry your crap for you. Frankly, I've RO'ed Nationals and Area matches and if asked, and the stage design allows it without being a hinderance to pushing people through the stage...and your buddy brings it up for you, you can bag...after the firearm is cleared & holstered. No problem. However, I'm not there to be a caddy or valet. I'm there to ensure safety and a level playing field on the COF.

Lastly, as someone that doesn't like to wear his pistol any longer than I have to, I'll just put in my $0.02 on what I do. I unload, show clear and holster. From there, I walk with the RO and he and I verify the scoring of the targets. Once the scoring is complete, I gather my mags, brass and sign the scoresheet. From there, I go to my bag, drop off mags & brass, grab it or a pistol case, walk to a safe area and place my pistol in it. I'm not interrupting the reset of the stage or requiring assistance from anyone else. Funny how that works and doesn't require the assistance of others. Just a tip.

Rich

Edited December 17, 2007 by uscbigdawg

[Gary Stevens]

Rich says "Lastly, as someone that doesn't like to wear his pistol any longer than I have to, I'll just put in my $0.02 on what I do. I unload, show clear and holster. From there, I walk with the RO and he and I verify the scoring of the targets. Once the scoring is complete, I gather my mags, brass and sign the scoresheet. From there, I go to my bag, drop off mags & brass, grab it or a pistol case, walk to a safe area and place my pistol in it. I'm not interrupting the reset of the stage or requiring assistance from anyone else. Funny how that works and doesn't require the assistance of others. Just a tip."

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

There is also another issue that is not discussed here much, and that is stage management. At a large match is not uncommon to run 125 shooters a day. Many times this is in hot weather, or equally bad conditions. RO's are given a fixed amount of time to run a squad. If they go over, the match slows down, if they go under, they get a few minutes rest before the next squad comes up. It is all about efficiency. If you run an efficient squad, you can give the shooter the necessary time (not rush them) and still have maybe 10 minutes to sit down and rest.

Any "perks" you give to one shooter has to be available to all. I know not every shooter in a squad will want to bag, but that option would be available to them. Adding an additional 30 seconds per shooter to the squad will add up over the course of a day.

Most major matches have numerous safety areas. Do as Rich suggest and every one can benefit.

Now before the flame thrower comes out, no I'm not hard opposed to the service, but it should be looked at along with other considerations. I have used the approach of "mass unbagging and bagging". I would get everyone on line before the walk through, and everyone would unbag. Reverse the procedure after the stage is complete. It worked well, and no one complained.

Gary

Edited December 17, 2007 by Gary Stevens

[Jim Norman]

Gary brought up perhaps the best argument AGAINST allowing bagging at the line. TIME. 125 shooters taking only 30 seconds longer to complete the COF by bagging....is 3750 Seconds or 62.5 minutes added potentially to a very long day.

A better solution would be to have a barrel or a small table at the side of EVERY stage where shooters that want to can bag and unbag. No shooter should come to the line with gun in bag and no shooter should expect to leave the line with his gun in a bag.

At the club level, we run 70 shooters through 7 stages first shot at 1030, tear-down starts about 1500-1530. That is a 3 minute clear time with 5 minutes to move and 5 minutes to walk-through. A larger range might require a few more minutes to move between stages and maybe 7 minutes to walk-through to include questions after the reading of the WSB. If we were to add in bagging and unbagging every shooter, we'd never get done before dark.

That said, I also thnk that this is one of those things that is more critical at a "Big Match" than at the local club level. At the club level, especially if the match is smaller, it might not be a major problem, but obviously it can add up.

Along the same lines is the shooter that upon LAMR inserts eery magazine twice and then points to every target. I really think that we should visit this at some future time. LAMR, Draw gun, insert mag, verify dot is on and iron sight has not fallen off the gun, re-holster assume the position and shoot. Practical Shooting. Come to the line ready to shoot all but for turning the dot on and inserting a magazine.

Jim

[LPatterson]

Since this post started with something I said & wrote I want to get back in here. I am not sure who the shooter was but before he started, he asked me if he could bag when he got done and I said sure. The problem is that he wanted to bag before holstering the gun. My interpretation of 8.3.7.3 was the gun had to go back into the holster and the competitor's hands were clear to end the course of fire. Once the gun was holstered, I told him he could bag before I gave the range clear command. I'm sorry if I came across as a range Nazi but I don't think the rule book gave me any other choice. If I upset anyone with the way I RO I would like to apologize but I am only doing the best I can.

For the people who said you like to bag after each course of fire, I have this question. Do you holster first & wait for some one to bring a bag or do you stand there with your gun in hand waiting for the bag?

The new rule book does not change the requirement to holster as part of ICHDH, it moves the course of fire is not complete to after RIC. The potential problem here is that if the shooter drops the gun after it is holstered which used to end the COF and is bagging and drops the gun then he is DQed because the RO should be waiting for the gun to be safely stored before issing RIC.

If you want to bag, I don't have a problem with it if you let me know in advance so I can warn the tapers to wait for me to give RIC.

[Jim Norman]

LeRoy,

Maybe I read wrong, but I thoght that Troy indicated that bag or holster same difference. As to waiting for the bag, If the shooter has a pistol rug, no biggie, RO can easily carry, if however we are tallking a full Shooters Connection Range Bag with 300 rounds of ammo, 5 extra mags and 1/3 of the Brownels catalog in spare parts, then I would have troulbe with that.

Also as Gary pointed out above, if you do for one, you have to do for all. The time of 30 seconds may or may not seem to be a lot, but as the match shows, if all 125 shooters made the request, you add over one hour to an RO's day.

In reality there are two different questions: Can the shooter go from Unload_Show-clear_If-Clear_Hammer-Down straingt into his pistol rug, or does he have toholster first, then have the range called hot a second time to bag and if so, what commands would an RO have to give. (Assumes we want to read the book 100% vebatim and allow no deviations)

Question two, which depends upon the answers to Question one is should the RO carry a shooters pistol rug so he can go directly from ULSCHD into the bag.

My solution I think will be to make up a sign at each pit and place it in a manner that will allow a shooter to bag and unbag at a safe area immediately at teh start of a COF. Sorry, but you'll have to walk back to the beginning of the COF to bag after you shoot.

Easy answer.

Jim

[ChuckS]

--- snip ---

Lastly, as someone that doesn't like to wear his pistol any longer than I have to, I'll just put in my $0.02 on what I do. I unload, show clear and holster. From there, I walk with the RO and he and I verify the scoring of the targets. Once the scoring is complete, I gather my mags, brass and sign the scoresheet. From there, I go to my bag, drop off mags & brass, grab it or a pistol case, walk to a safe area and place my pistol in it. I'm not interrupting the reset of the stage or requiring assistance from anyone else. Funny how that works and doesn't require the assistance of others. Just a tip.

Rich

A true gentleman.

[lcs]

LeRoy,

Maybe I read wrong, but I thoght that Troy indicated that bag or holster same difference. As to waiting for the bag, If the shooter has a pistol rug, no biggie, RO can easily carry, if however we are tallking a full Shooters Connection Range Bag with 300 rounds of ammo, 5 extra mags and 1/3 of the Brownels catalog in spare parts, then I would have troulbe with that.

Also as Gary pointed out above, if you do for one, you have to do for all. The time of 30 seconds may or may not seem to be a lot, but as the match shows, if all 125 shooters made the request, you add over one hour to an RO's day.

In reality there are two different questions: Can the shooter go from Unload_Show-clear_If-Clear_Hammer-Down straingt into his pistol rug, or does he have toholster first, then have the range called hot a second time to bag and if so, what commands would an RO have to give. (Assumes we want to read the book 100% vebatim and allow no deviations)

Question two, which depends upon the answers to Question one is should the RO carry a shooters pistol rug so he can go directly from ULSCHD into the bag.

My solution I think will be to make up a sign at each pit and place it in a manner that will allow a shooter to bag and unbag at a safe area immediately at teh start of a COF. Sorry, but you'll have to walk back to the beginning of the COF to bag after you shoot.

Easy answer.

Jim

Jim,

This is not really directed at you, but we as RO/CRO are expected to follow the rules! When a shooter violates a safety rule, the rule must be cited verbatim. Which rules allow deviations and which don't?

8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun.

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person.

Does 5.2.1 allow the RO to deviate from 8.3.7.3 ? IMHO, not unless 8.3.7.3 had an added statement "See Rule 5.2.1."

If time permits AND after the gun is in the holster, I would be glad to let the shooter bag his gun. He is still under my direct supervision and I know the gun is clear.

When I went to RO class and CRO class, I was told the "Range commands must be said exactly as stated in the Rule Book".

Do we get to change " "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster" to "If Clear, Hammer Down, Bag it"? Then if something happens, who gets the a$$ chewing or worse? Not the shooter!

[JThompson]

In some cases the nearest safe area can be a good walk away... not that the walk bothers me as I wear mine until the end of the day, but for some people, older or with some disability, this can be a pain. It also means they will be gone from the squad for some time and not helping reset the stages. If you don't want to carry a bag then that's up to you, but I think it's a small thing. If I ever was to ask one of the ROs to carry a gun rug, I would do it in a polite way and ask the RO with the scorecard to do it. He already has a clipboard and a rug under it held with the same hand is no big deal. As long as a shooter doesn't come off like I'm expected to do it I have no problem with it. I don't shoot three gun, but hang out to help break down the stages. I often follow the guys around through all the long gun stages and paint/reset them for em or help run them. This is a group of guys/ladies I enjoy spending time with and I really WANT to help them any way I can. If someone asks me in a polite way to carry a rug... be glad too.

I would prefer that the score keeper do it for safety reasons. I was a bit shocked that some of you feel like you're being put out by this. If it's a time factor, you aren't talking about more than 2-5 secs dif from the holster.... Now if you have 200 shooters and every one of them asked to bag you are talking about what? 15-16 mins? That would never happen... at most you might get a few during the day so figure maybe 5mins added on.

Anyway, my two...

JT

Edited December 17, 2007 by JThompson

[Jim Norman]

LeRoy,

Maybe I read wrong, but I thoght that Troy indicated that bag or holster same difference. As to waiting for the bag, If the shooter has a pistol rug, no biggie, RO can easily carry, if however we are tallking a full Shooters Connection Range Bag with 300 rounds of ammo, 5 extra mags and 1/3 of the Brownels catalog in spare parts, then I would have troulbe with that.

Also as Gary pointed out above, if you do for one, you have to do for all. The time of 30 seconds may or may not seem to be a lot, but as the match shows, if all 125 shooters made the request, you add over one hour to an RO's day.

In reality there are two different questions: Can the shooter go from Unload_Show-clear_If-Clear_Hammer-Down straingt into his pistol rug, or does he have toholster first, then have the range called hot a second time to bag and if so, what commands would an RO have to give. (Assumes we want to read the book 100% vebatim and allow no deviations)

Question two, which depends upon the answers to Question one is should the RO carry a shooters pistol rug so he can go directly from ULSCHD into the bag.

My solution I think will be to make up a sign at each pit and place it in a manner that will allow a shooter to bag and unbag at a safe area immediately at teh start of a COF. Sorry, but you'll have to walk back to the beginning of the COF to bag after you shoot.

Easy answer.

Jim

Jim,

This is not really directed at you, but we as RO/CRO are expected to follow the rules! When a shooter violates a safety rule, the rule must be cited verbatim. Which rules allow deviations and which don't?

8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun.

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person.

Does 5.2.1 allow the RO to deviate from 8.3.7.3 ? IMHO, not unless 8.3.7.3 had an added statement "See Rule 5.2.1."

If time permits AND after the gun is in the holster, I would be glad to let the shooter bag his gun. He is still under my direct supervision and I know the gun is clear.

When I went to RO class and CRO class, I was told the "Range commands must be said exactly as stated in the Rule Book".

Do we get to change " "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster" to "If Clear, Hammer Down, Bag it"? Then if something happens, who gets the a$$ chewing or worse? Not the shooter!

Here is why I said waht I said:

Bagging instead of holstering is acceptable. As the RO, or the RM, I would not expect the range officers to carry your bag for you, but if someone brought it up for you, that would be fine. Bag or Holster, in 2008, the COF ends with "Range is Clear". This question comes up in RO seminars, and the answer is the same: bagging is identical to holstering once the competitor is done.

Troy

I would pretty much take what Troy says to the arbitration table. That said and also in light of what JT says just before this. I am game to add a safe table (barrel top, garbage can lid, camp stool or whatever) with a proper safe area sign on each shooting bay, in fact for each stage in a two stage bay. Sorry, I think that the operating engineers amongst us are busy building mountains out of molehills here.

Jim

[JFD]

I've worked my ass off at several big matches carrying the clipboard. Your little gun rug throws off the "system" and just adds to my workload. No thanks. Having a "system" for running shooters is how we keep the time down and the match running smoothly without backups.

At the SC State match where the shooters don't have to paste or reset, the CRO and I never got more than 5 minutes break between squads for hours on end, and many times we didn't get that. It's unbelievable that anyone would want to add anything to the workload of the volunteer staff at a match. Probably the same types who stalk off a stage after a bad run, not giving a damn we have to chase you down to give you the opportunity to verify the scoring and/or get the scorecard signed.

uscbigdawg has got it right.

Taking the staff for granted is one of my biggest pet peeves.

[-JQ-]

I assume the shooter wasn't carrying a "Man Bag" right? I would have to draw the line there...I saw those pic of the race kilt...where does this end?

[John Heiter]

USPSA rules may not draw a distinction between bagging and holstering as they are equally safe, but I agree with those who say bagging is a privilege. If done right, you typically finish your stage somewhere down range. Since neither the CRO nor RO should be carrying your bag as they both have plenty to keep them busy, your bag will be back up range somewhere and can't begin to proceed to you until the "If clear, hammer down, holster" routine. It takes time, it involves extra people down range (bringing you your bag) before your hand comes off the gun so technically it's still during the COF, and it's a pita. I don't mind if a competitor has their gun bagged when I give the LAMR because it doesn't take any extra time and everyone's up range. I also don't mind stepping back to the line and supervising as one or more competitors bag their guns after the whole squad is finished. Honestly, unless it's an unusually busy match, I might not even notice/mind if you wanted to bag after unload and show clear, but for the reasons given above, I think the courteous thing, and the thing I would prefer a competitor to do, would be to either find a safe area on your own or wait until the squad is done to ask the CRO. If you're that worried about dust or rain, get a gun cover. Chuck Bradley sells a really nice dust/weather resistant one from CR Speed.

That's my .02

[ima45dv8]

I think that the operating engineers amongst us are busy building mountains out of molehills here.

Jim

[boo radley]

For those competitors that must bag at the end of the stage, rather than rely on the apparently impractical holster...here's a thought!

Why not fold a 1-gallon Ziploc bag, and place in your hip pocket?

The RO or scoring officer doesn't have to act as bearer.

No one has to wait while the shooter's buddy puts down the video equipment, then runs the bag across the field course to the shooter.

The plastic just has to be substantial enough to let the shooter bring it back to his range bag. <shrug> Only partly kidding....

[Coolduckboy]

For those competitors that must bag at the end of the stage, rather than rely on the apparently impractical holster...here's a thought!

Why not fold a 1-gallon Ziploc™ bag, and place in your hip pocket?

The RO or scoring officer doesn't have to act as bearer.

No one has to wait while the shooter's buddy puts down the video equipment, then runs the bag across the field course to the shooter.

The plastic just has to be substantial enough to let the shooter bring it back to his range bag. <shrug> Only partly kidding....

Except the Ro might have to open/help open the bag for you........

[Chuck Anderson]

Couple of points. The Safety areas at the Montana Nationals were ridiculously far apart. If the shooter went there after each stage to bag and un bag he would probably miss taping for 4-6 shooters. Couple on the front and a couple on the back side. I'll bag off the line if there is a safety area near by but I'm not hiking half a mile to do it.

Many shooters have a reasonably secure holster (not too many folks are shooting from a duty holster so all of them have compromises), but still can lose the gun. How about carrying a bag or a pack and having a strap hook the gun and pull it out. Or sitting down in a chair and having an arm of the chair pull it out. I've seen both happen, and while they may not result in a DQ they still damage the nice pretty expensive gun.

Many folks in my section bag/unbag between stages. At the front part it's included in the 30 seconds the shooter gets to prep so it doesn't add anything. If they're going over put them at the bottom. At the end if the ARO is there with the bag it doesn't take more than a second or two. For the ARO's too lazy (yes I said it) to carry the 3 oz of pistol rug to the end of the stage, yeah it's going to add some time. I've RO'd a big match or two and have RO'd thousands of shooters and have never had a problem with carrying a pistol rug. If they want me to carry their range bag that's an issue. The RO should not be carrying the bag for the shooter, the ARO should. If they are unable to carry a small pistol rug as well as the clipboard, well maybe we could find another job for them.

Personally I don't bag/unbag much anymore. I do in certain cases like first thing in the morning or after driving to another half of the range. I know lots of folks that depending on weather would though. The open guys in the rain come to mind first. I also bag if I've got a strenous course I'm ROing or if there is some steel or targets that require a run to reset. I'm guessing this is faster than meandering out with my hand on the butt of my gun to make sure nothing happens. Even though I know my holster is more than secure enough to pass any holster test.