S&W 610 in competition

[hearthco]

How thick are the 610 clips? Do they work with my no dash model? What brand of brass are your clips cut for?

The clips I have now that I mentioned above bend real easy. If you drop a loaded clip on the floor (wood) with 165 gr bullets installed its all over! I have dropped my Ranch 45acp clips with 230gr bullets onto the same floor for months now and still using them! Don't ask me why I drop them on the floor, its a secret .

thank you,

pat

Pat, I have made 610 clips in both .035 and .042.

To the best of my knowledge, The way I tell the 610s apart is frame mount fire pin or hammer mount fire pin.

If you drop tight, fully loaded moons on hard surfaces long enough they will bend. If you have loose clips and alot of spring weight on your hammer it may not be enough to matter.

So far R-P and Fed brass clips are all that has been requested.

Dave

Edited December 22, 2007 by hearthco

[hopalong]

Pat,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news.......................BUT !!!!

You may want to think really hard about using Clays to make MAJOR in 40 S&W.

That is on the high side of the pressure tolerances, the only thing you might have going for you is you're using it in a gun designed to handle 10MM pressures.

The ONLY way I'd think about using Clays to make Major is in a 610, and then I'd really go through the numbers, might even give Hodgedon a call too!

Hop

[41mag]

Pat,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news.......................BUT !!!!

You may want to think really hard about using Clays to make MAJOR in 40 S&W.

That is on the high side of the pressure tolerances, the only thing you might have going for you is you're using it in a gun designed to handle 10MM pressures.

The ONLY way I'd think about using Clays to make Major is in a 610, and then I'd really go through the numbers, might even give Hodgedon a call too!

Hop

Thanks for caring my friend and mentor. That really is being a good sport.....you could just let me blow off a finger or two to help slow me down .

Your right about being on the edge and I can't find any published loads any where that show any weight bullet making any thing closer to major then say about 150ish PF (with Clays). That being said thou, most of that data is out of a 4" barrel....I have a 6 1/2".....that gives be 2 1/2" more barrel to make velocity. Also all of the published data is loading to a much shorter OAL. The Lyman manual seats an 180gr jhp to 1.115" with a max of 4.6grs of Clays under it. The Lyman manual also shows an 175gr (I know, 22grs lighter than my Cheys bullet) lead seated to 1.100" with a max of 4.2grs of Clays. The load Haras gave that I shot today was at 1.150" OAL with 3.4grs of Clays under it (197gr bullet). I ejected the cases with my finger nail and found no apparent signs of pressure that could be spotted by eyeball. The report was normal to mild, nothing broke

Now I certainly know that what I've just said means nothing, I'm just making conversation for the fun of it.

Does any one know if the dimensions of the 10mm brass and 40S&W brass are the same except for the length. Same thickness in the head/web area, wall thickness ? Another way of asking this would be.....if I left the same space for powder under the bullet by loading long in the forty that is under the bullet in the 10mm (which would also decrease neck tension in the forty load) and every thing else being equal, would I have a like load pressure wise? Looks like the 10 is about .142" longer then 40.

Yes indeed, I'm working this up for the 610, and after thinking about it a bit, 167/168 PF is fine because I won't be shooting the 610 at any "big" matchs any way (read 164.5 PF at the chrono ), unless I find I'm unstoppable with it . Just don't want to cheat myself shooting mouse fart loads for practice.

Thanks for the heads up Hop. If I find any published data to support this load I will post, but until then I would advise folks reading this thread to heed Hops warning...he's bin doing this while!

41mag

[rugerp89ipsc]

that sure is a lot of posts without a lot of pictures.

Damn I want a 610 already. Not to mention a Sing Stack in .40......

[cheetahs]

Pat,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news.......................BUT !!!!

You may want to think really hard about using Clays to make MAJOR in 40 S&W.

That is on the high side of the pressure tolerances, the only thing you might have going for you is you're using it in a gun designed to handle 10MM pressures.

The ONLY way I'd think about using Clays to make Major is in a 610, and then I'd really go through the numbers, might even give Hodgedon a call too!

Hop

Here is what I found after 3 years of 610 in competition,

(buy a 625 and cut 1 sec off your reload times)

just kidding!!

seriously the 610 is an awesome gun for both USPSA as well as IPSC

a couple of years back IDPA went to major with all moon clip guns (ESR)

so I had to work up loads to make major in 40s&w.

the one load I shoot is Winchesters WST with 5.2 grs behind Berrys' 180 grain Round nose bullet

they are loaded fairly short In guessing around 1.124 Data is out in my reload room.

they show extreme preasures as far as flatting of the primer on the breech face

and with federal primers you will get some primer bushing erosion over time

this load seems to be ok on the brass I never had to discard brass because of the preasures.

Rimz clips are the only way to go They only work in the N frame 610 Don't buy them in any other cal. or

frame they won't work to well

I also tried Berrys' 155 gr hollow back round nose and the gun is very snappy

hope this may help

Good shooting

Gary

[41mag]

that sure is a lot of posts without a lot of pictures.

Damn I want a 610 already. Not to mention a Sing Stack in .40......

I think this shot of the cylinder should help determine the type of moon clips needed.

The gun is a no dash with hammer nose.

41mag

[10mmdave]

And as far as a chamfer ? one of my 610's has more than most folks would do and it works fine, you have to go quite a

bit before you run out of case web in the 10mm and 40 S&W.

Thanks for the info Dave,

What tool did you use to chamfer your charge holes?

Do you have a picture you could show me?

thanks,

pat

Sorry for the late post, Christmas errands have been killing me !!

I use the Brownells chamfer tool but followed up with a little extra dremel tool work.

Sorry, don't have a dig camera to take a pic.

I'm shooting the "Outlaw" 610 now and the chamfer isn't as much (no grinding I think ?)

and it's been working fine so far.

Someone did mention that it would be tough to go too far with the tool before you start

hitting the ratchets.

[41mag]

And as far as a chamfer ? one of my 610's has more than most folks would do and it works fine, you have to go quite a

bit before you run out of case web in the 10mm and 40 S&W.

Thanks for the info Dave,

What tool did you use to chamfer your charge holes?

Do you have a picture you could show me?

thanks,

pat

Sorry for the late post, Christmas errands have been killing me !!

I use the Brownells chamfer tool but followed up with a little extra dremel tool work.

Sorry, don't have a dig camera to take a pic.

I'm shooting the "Outlaw" 610 now and the chamfer isn't as much (no grinding I think ?)

and it's been working fine so far.

Someone did mention that it would be tough to go too far with the tool before you start

hitting the ratchets.

Yes..the xmas errands....and family and friends stopping by....very nice to see family and friends but I could skip the rest .

When I did my 625 cylinder with the Brownells tool I removed the ratchet/star/ejector prior to doing the chamfer, it was in the way before I even started. Then the pilot didn't fit the chamber and I had to chuck it up and take it down with a file. I then chamfered as far as the pilot would let me because the pilot then "headspaced" off the chamber shoulder. I liked the way it turned out and never looked back. I will have to order the right pilot from Brownells. Same cutter as I used for the 625 I assume, but I will try to find out for sure.

Those round nose bullets I have now load pretty good in the gun with the factory chamfer (see pic above of chamfer), but I can use all the help I can get.

No digital camera Dave! I hope Santa brings you one. Shooting film these days is kinda like using sabot slugs to shoot IPSC.....cost a lot more and the results are not as good .

Merry Christmas,

Pat

[scooterj]

Pat, here's a shot of my 610-2 cylinder.

[scooterj]

May as well Carmonize your hammer, while you're at it.

Here's mine.

[41mag]

Picture of fired cases from the Chey bullet load above. The following pics are of the 610's forcing cone and chambers after firing the Chey bullet loads thru them. Whats the deal? Any one know? Ever see the likes of this before?

They shot pretty well, good groups and no apparent keyholeing.

This was about 60 or 70 rounds or so total. The chambers always looked that way after every cylinder full fired starting with the first one.

41mag

[41mag]

May as well Carmonize your hammer, while you're at it.

Here's mine.

Thanks for the pics.

I wish I had the frame mounted FP, with the hammer nose I won't be able to go that light.

This gun had a factory trigger job done by the previous owner. Its at 8.5 lbs DA and I still had one light strike today with Winchester primers. I've got some work to do!

41mag

[DougCarden]

Pat, I would try a little slower powder than CLAYS....looks like you are melting the base of the bullet and that is what you are seeing.....

Merry Christmas,

DougC

[41mag]

Pat, I would try a little slower powder than CLAYS....looks like you are melting the base of the bullet and that is what you are seeing.....

Merry Christmas,

DougC

Merry Christmas to you too Doug,

Why didn't I think of that! It makes since I suppose. It does look shiny.

When I work up another load I will report back. (with the same bullets)

thanks,

pat

[10mmdave]

Pat, I would try a little slower powder than CLAYS....looks like you are melting the base of the bullet and that is what you are seeing.....

Merry Christmas,

DougC

Sounds like a possible solution Doug but my concern would be the lead swipe @ 7-8 o'clock on the barrel at the FC ?

maybe check barrel/cylinder alignment while your at it if you can.

Course it's been so long since I've shot lead bullets maybe I was getting this condition back in the Pin shooting

days, I'm sure I was melting the bottom of few lead bullets back then

No camera for 10mmDave from Santa Pat, like I need another toy to play around with

[DougCarden]

Oh no...that looks like what happened to me when I loaded up a bunch of 38s with bullets my caster made for me, and I tried moly coating them, and then using a really fast powder, it was either bullseye or clays....dont remember, but it was neat seeing the flakes of lead in the cylinder and the long strands of lead left in the barrel. 2 cylinder's full and you couldnt tell where it would hit at 10yds on a target.....I was lucky I was paying attention or I would have bought a new barrel....

Cleaning the barrel was a bitch....of course I didnt know about a lewis lead remover at the time, or just the Po boy cut up on the cleaning brush.......ah....the good ole days.......

Titegroup probably isnt going to be much better, I am afraid....

I am going into town today and try to score some Solo 1000 to try.....

<thread drift off> Keep going Pat, something around W231/vv 320 should yield good results....

DougC

[BlackSabbath]

Pat,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news.......................BUT !!!!

You may want to think really hard about using Clays to make MAJOR in 40 S&W.

That is on the high side of the pressure tolerances, the only thing you might have going for you is you're using it in a gun designed to handle 10MM pressures.

The ONLY way I'd think about using Clays to make Major is in a 610, and then I'd really go through the numbers, might even give Hodgedon a call too!

Hop

Hop,

I've heard that said about Clays before. I shot Clays at 180 for years under the old 175 pf with no problems using all kinds of brass. I used it in a Para and an STI. I'm not going to publish my loads, but they were as consistent as you could get..4 to 8 foot per second spreads in 10 shot test runs.; some even tighter than that. I never had any shoot through the roof on speed.

Glenn and I also used it in the 610 with a heavier bullet.

Where are some published accounts of this?

See you in May at the Mississippi Classic!

www.nrams.com

Edited December 28, 2007 by BlackSabbath

[revchuck]

I am going into town today and try to score some Solo 1000 to try.....

Doug - If you're going to try it with .38 Special, it should work with a 6" barrel at the listed +P max of 4.0 grains using lead or plated bullets. I had hopes for it in my Carmonized 4" M19 for IDPA; that load ran 808 fps with a 158 grain RNL and 758 fps with a 158 grain Rainier RN. They run 40 fps faster in my 681, go figure.

[DougCarden]

Thanks for the info!

DougC

[41mag]

Oh no...that looks like what happened to me when I loaded up a bunch of 38s with bullets my caster made for me, and I tried moly coating them, and then using a really fast powder, it was either bullseye or clays....dont remember, but it was neat seeing the flakes of lead in the cylinder and the long strands of lead left in the barrel. 2 cylinder's full and you couldnt tell where it would hit at 10yds on a target.....I was lucky I was paying attention or I would have bought a new barrel....

Cleaning the barrel was a bitch....of course I didnt know about a lewis lead remover at the time, or just the Po boy cut up on the cleaning brush.......ah....the good ole days.......

Titegroup probably isnt going to be much better, I am afraid....

I am going into town today and try to score some Solo 1000 to try.....

<thread drift off> Keep going Pat, something around W231/vv 320 should yield good results....

DougC

Worked up to 4.2grs 231 (had some laying around) with following results....

866

845

821

874

868

871

857 average

168 PF

I don't like the spread on this load. The leading like that in the above pics is no longer present, there may be some "normal" leading going on, I will have to shoot more rounds to know if its bad enough to discontinue loads with these bullets.

I am going to start over and shorten the OAL by 30 or 40 K (Modern Reloading by Richard Lee). Lee's manual shows a 200gr lead bullet seated at 1.100" with the max load of 4grs 231 making 850fps.

I'll keep you posted,

41mag

[41mag]

Oh no...that looks like what happened to me when I loaded up a bunch of 38s with bullets my caster made for me, and I tried moly coating them, and then using a really fast powder, it was either bullseye or clays....dont remember, but it was neat seeing the flakes of lead in the cylinder and the long strands of lead left in the barrel. 2 cylinder's full and you couldnt tell where it would hit at 10yds on a target.....I was lucky I was paying attention or I would have bought a new barrel....

Cleaning the barrel was a bitch....of course I didnt know about a lewis lead remover at the time, or just the Po boy cut up on the cleaning brush.......ah....the good ole days.......

Titegroup probably isnt going to be much better, I am afraid....

I am going into town today and try to score some Solo 1000 to try.....

<thread drift off> Keep going Pat, something around W231/vv 320 should yield good results....

DougC

Worked up to 4.2grs 231 (had some laying around) with following results....

866

845

821

874

868

871

857 average

168 PF

I don't like the spread on this load. The leading like that in the above pics is no longer present, there may be some "normal" leading going on, I will have to shoot more rounds to know if its bad enough to discontinue loads with these bullets.

I am going to start over and shorten the OAL by 30 or 40 K (Modern Reloading by Richard Lee). Lee's manual shows a 200gr lead bullet seated at 1.100" with the max load of 4grs 231 making 850fps.

I'll keep you posted,

41mag

200gr lead bullet seated at 1.100" with the max load of 4grs 231

842

838

833

841

851

850

842 avg

165 PF

But.......the leading is back . I think maybe these bullets are to soft? I would think any decent alloy would make these speeds with out leading. The ones I buy local for my 45 work fine. I think I will read back thru this thread to find a plated or jacketed RN to try.

Any one want to buy these bullets ?

41mag

[Tom E]

For a revolver shooting a semi-auto round the OAL is pretty meaningless. It's usually set for proper functioning of semi-autos. Some can be finicky aside from the issue it has to be short enough to fit the magazine. If it will chamber and the bullet doesn't fall out you're ok. My .45s are seated as short as the bullet ogive will allow to reduce the effective case volume. Longer OAL (more effective case volume) and slower (AA5 maybe) powder might be the ticket. Slower powders will shoot "softer".

[41mag]

For a revolver shooting a semi-auto round the OAL is pretty meaningless. It's usually set for proper functioning of semi-autos. Some can be finicky aside from the issue it has to be short enough to fit the magazine. If it will chamber and the bullet doesn't fall out you're ok. My .45s are seated as short as the bullet ogive will allow to reduce the effective case volume. Longer OAL (more effective case volume) and slower (AA5 maybe) powder might be the ticket. Slower powders will shoot "softer".

For proper functioning alone I would agree, if you can stick it in the cylinder and it still spins you can probably shoot it. I decided to reply to the issue of OAL for the sake of new reloaders who may read this. The OAL will have an effect on the pressure at which the load will operate. Generally speaking shorter OAL equals higher pressure due to reduced case capacity and more neck tension. If you look at most load manuals they will list the OAL as part of the recipe. Some times this really only pertains to loading a round that will function properly and other times it is to prevent reducing case capacity and therefore increasing pressure. Here is what the Lee manual says about the load above...."Caution: With NEVER EXCEED LOADS maintain minimum Over All Length or longer". Loading longer is more of a function (or to maximize case volume) thing and not a concern for increasing pressure, loading to short of a OAL can increase pressure beyond SAMMI spec with some powder/caliber combos. The Chey bullet I'm loading here has an ogive that would lend itself well to being seated about another 20 or 30 K" shorter than the manual minimum, but I won't go there because I don't know what will happen with the pressure.

thanks,

41mag

[Tom E]

I decided to reply to the issue of OAL for the sake of new reloaders who may read this. The OAL will have an effect on the pressure at which the load will operate. Generally speaking shorter OAL equals higher pressure due to reduced case capacity and more neck tension. If you look at most load manuals they will list the OAL as part of the recipe.

thanks,

41mag

Yes, I'm guilty of not including all the usual disclaimers. Yes, reducing the effective case volume by deep seating the bullet will increase pressures if you don't decrease the powder charge. One should approach such things with due caution. Changes in OAL to adjust the effective case volume can be a usefull tool for obtaining efficient and consistent loads.

Edited December 31, 2007 by Tom E

[vrmn1]

I just worked a deal for a 610. I have been wanting one for a while now to play with. My main guns will still be my 625's but I am interested in playing with a 610.