Pull Ups

[Jake Di Vita]

You obviously don't understand what kipping is because "flailing" has nothing to do with it. It is in fact a perfectly natural and controlled motion that when done correctly emphasizes shoulder strength and flexibility. If you hurt your shoulder kipping, it's your fault, not the movement's. Just the same way thousands of people hurt their backs picking things up off the ground - that doesn't make the deadlift unsafe.

If you didn't gain any absolute strength, then quite simply there was a problem with your programming/nutrition/recovery. That isn't the norm and is a big red flag to any coach worth his/her salt.

He may not put out the data, but I know what my data says. Yes it is a small sampling, but I do not foresee any complications with how things are looking now.

[Leozinho]

You obviously don't understand what kipping is because "flailing" has nothing to do with it. It is in fact a perfectly natural and controlled motion that when done correctly emphasizes shoulder strength and flexibility. If you hurt your shoulder kipping, it's your fault, not the movement's. Just the same way thousands of people hurt their backs picking things up off the ground - that doesn't make the deadlift unsafe.

You can't pin all Crossfit shoulder injuries on improper kipping, but even if you could, the fact that it is easier perform the kipping pullup improperly than a deadhang pullup would support my statement that kipping pullups greatly increase the chance for shoulder injury.

If you didn't gain any absolute strength, then quite simply there was a problem with your programming/nutrition/recovery. That isn't the norm and is a big red flag to any coach worth his/her salt.

I agree there was a problem with the programming. I'm 37 and have been lifting off and on for 22 years. I stopped doing CF when I was getting ready to go to Afghanistan. I didn't/don't need the same workout as a soccer mom, or a high school football player, although Glassman contends I do. My newbie strength gains are far, far behind me. For me to get stronger I need to lift at near my maxes, and this also requires periodization. If trained lifters made big increases in absolute strength with the WOD, you wouldn't have affiliates tinkering with it: MaxEffortBlack Box, CF Strength Bias, Gant Hybrid, Rip's push toward emphasizing the CF Total, CF Football, seminars from Tate and Simmons, etc. Nor would you see so many CFers recommending weak CFers to drop the WOD and instead doing a couple of months of Starting Strength. And that's probably why none of the CF games competitors use the WOD.

(Even Glassman says he'll take a 900 lb squat and turn it into a 750 lb squat. He also says he'll take a 200lb deadlift and turn it into a 500-750lb deadlift. I know I shouldn't have gone there. )

[Jake Di Vita]

You can't pin all Crossfit shoulder injuries on improper kipping, but even if you could, the fact that it is easier perform the kipping pullup improperly than a deadhang pullup would support my statement that kipping pullups greatly increase the chance for shoulder injury.

How do you figure? It's easy to perform any movement incorrectly, but that doesn't mean it is inherently more dangerous than another. You can hurt yourself with anything....the formula is: don't know how to do it, and add a lot of weight. As I said before, the kip is a completely controlled movement and allows you to accomplish more work (force x distance / time) than deadhangs. That isn't to say deadhangs don't have a place, but you will be much more well rounded if you do both.

I didn't/don't need the same workout as a soccer mom, or a high school football player, although Glassman contends I do

What is meant by that statement is when it comes to the 10 general physical skills, whatever needs you have become degrees of each one of those skills. The movements never change. While a soccer mom may only be looking for functional competence throughout the 10 domains, someone like you may be looking for functional dominance. Either way, you are doing the same movements at high intensity - it just depends on how far you take it.

I don't really have a problem with periodization...unless you are police, military, fire fighter and don't have the luxury of knowing when or where the fight will be or what you will be doing in it. CrossFit is not meant to build the strongest athletes out there, it is meant to build the fittest athletes out there. You and I both know that the guy with the 900# back squat will probably be finishing a mile in around 15 minutes while walking. I don't think that's what you need either.

The idea of crossfit being an open source community is that all the other affiliates can decide what they want to do and see what works best with measurable, observable, and repeatable data. If you want to focus on strength, that's your prerogative, but to say that you can't get stronger doing crossfit.com wods, well that's just ludicrous.

And for what it's worth, this:

And that's probably why none of the CF games competitors use the WOD.

is completely untrue. If you watch the coverage of the 2009 games...the majority of competitors went off the main site wods.

Once again, being well rounded is the goal - especially if you gotta go to the sandbox.

[TRUbor9]

I push my self just to do one extra pull up after my max every day. then that becomes my max at the end of the week and i try to bedt that! works great for me

[John Thompson]

Crossfit= a bunch or random workouts written by a fat ass who drinks a bottle of gin for breakfast. Really there's youtube videos of him doing seminars where he's so liquored up he can barely stand. Coach Couch has also managed to throw everyone out of his inner circle who had the slightest bit of cred like Mark Ripptoe.

As most of the people on this forum are not 18 years old with shoulders of iron I really really recommend you discuss kipping pullups with your ortho before doing them.

Edited July 18, 2010 by John Thompson

[DocMedic]

Crossfit= a bunch or random workouts written by a fat ass who drinks a bottle of gin for breakfast. Really there's youtube videos of him doing seminars where he's so liquored up he can barely stand. Coach Couch has also managed to throw everyone out of his inner circle who had the slightest bit of cred like Mark Ripptoe.

As most of the people on this forum are not 18 years old with shoulders of iron I really really recommend you discuss kipping pullups with your ortho before doing them.

Do you have a source for this?

[Cold Absolute Zero]

I haven't had a chance to contribute to this thread yet so let me just say, I think pull ups are terrific. I think that they are quite possibly the best body weight upper body exercises you can do. They are extremely beneficial and give you a lot of functional strength for the challenges of sport and of life.

On the subject of crossfit and kipping pullups, I think both have merit. There is no way I could do a muscle-up (talk about a motion that looks really easy but is really hard!) with out training first in kipping pull ups. I did crossfit for 6+ months and I loved it. I feed that it makes you a better athlete. The body control, balance, and power that you develop is really terrific, if you read the theory and methodology behind the program it is very well designed and put together. That said, I do think that it is harder on your joints. You need to scale the exercises to your ability, and use good form and judgement to avoid injury, and yes there is form to kipping pull ups, but even then crossfit is still a dynamic and fast paced fitness program so there is more impact and stress than other programs in my opinion.

I still love the crossfit WODs, especial the Girls and hero workouts, but now I use those workouts to augment my more traditional lift/run workout. While I am not as athletic or young as I once was, my joints have thanked me.

CAZ

[Jake Di Vita]

My questions are:

You say CF was hard on your joints. What did your nutrition look like during this time? How much actual mobility work did you do in addition to your workouts?

[Field]

Just the same way thousands of people hurt their backs picking things up off the ground -

lol aint that the truth

from the knees....With EAse

Edited September 17, 2010 by Field

[entropic]

My questions are:

You say CF was hard on your joints. What did your nutrition look like during this time? How much actual mobility work did you do in addition to your workouts?

With limited range or motion and/or flexibility, I see how that could be so. But having a fear loading joints isn't logical....welcome to exercise/being confined by gravity. If you're injured or have an abnormality, that's different.

I drank the Crossfit kool-aid for a while and it did many things for me: It basically improved every aspect of fitness for me except strength, but since I was training so many new things, I was still improving the strength of many new untrained movements. The other big thing it did was introduce me to a whole new world of movements/exercises, as well as intensity. Crossfit is a great program, but I'd still recommend not doing Olympic lifts while winded, or tired at all....I've had a couple close calls with a barbell that I don't wish to repeat. I've given up on a full CF program to pursue more strength lately (Orlando and Lipson are basically what I train to be, and they didn't get that strong doing CF!).

As for pull-ups, this isn't in the hate thread anymore, so I'm free to say that I love pull-ups. They're an easy thing to throw between the stuff I hate (Clean&Jerk and snatches)...Keep at it at you'll love Pull-ups too!

[Jake Di Vita]

Have you tried any of the CrossFit Football or MEBB programming?

Oly lifts are perfectly safe to do while winded if and when you have sufficient experience and conditioning to handle it. If you're brand new to oly lifting, probably stay away from Isabel. Doing these lifts while winded will give you a capacity that is not easily attainable otherwise.

[Cold Absolute Zero]

My questions are:

You say CF was hard on your joints. What did your nutrition look like during this time? How much actual mobility work did you do in addition to your workouts?

Yes, I feel that CF is harder on my joints than other workout programs. Remember, I am only stating my observations based on a sample size of 1. When I was following CF full time I ate whatever was in the chowhall, unfortunately my options were limited as I was in Afghanistan. I did not follow the zone diet or anything like that. In addition to the actual WODs I would usually do apx 10 min of mobility work/rotational exercises/traditional stretching, in addition to the CF warmup prior to starting the WOD. While doing mobility work I would focus on the muscles that would be worked during the WOD, ex. if were were going to be doing thrusters / shoulder presses, I would use a broom stick and stretch out my shoulders and core, and I would use an empty bar to work on my range of motion prior to starting.

I think CF is a terrific program, but its not for everyone. Just like people scale workouts to their ability levels, I scale how frequently I engage in CF type workouts with how my body is feeling. However, I do think that my previously dislocated shoulder, and occasionally sore knees and hips from several years of parachute jumps, ruck/body armor runs and general pounding the pavement also contribute to my perspective.

CAZ

[Jake Di Vita]

It sounds like there were several factors involved in the problem. The nutritional aspect was probably 70% or more of the issue. The inflammatory response that we get from grains and other things is really nasty. Combine that with already pre-stressed joints and high intensity movement and that's definitely a recipe for disaster. I only say this because I've been training my 55 year old father for 7 months now (3 months of strength work first...CF style programming since) and he hasn't experienced any problems with his joints - which weren't real good to start with. I also had him go full paleo from the get go. I have him do the mobility wod that Kelly Starrett posts everyday which helps significantly.

[Cold Absolute Zero]

Thanks for the link to the mobility WOD site, it looks interesting and there is a lot of good information there. I think 70% is a bit high of a SWAG but its possible...I've heard and read many good things about the Paleo diet, have you noticed a marked improvement in your flexibility and health of your joints since starting on that program? out of curiosity have you ever tried the glucosamine or Omega 3 supplements and if so what were your thoughts?

[Jake Di Vita]

Once I started going full paleo and devoting 10 - 15 minutes a day towards mobility I noticed increases in performance in almost every metric. I got more flexible and more powerful in end ranges of motion. I recover much quicker (both after the workout and from DOMS). I sleep better. I ache less. I stopped snoring. I could go on and on.

I think Omega 3 supplementation is totally legit. Taking 7 or more grams of EPA/DHA daily will likely give you great benefit both in the control of inflammation (a great thing to do for your joints) and improvements in blood work. That amounts to more caps than you'd think because in a normal 1 gram cap of fish oil, only about 350 milligrams of it is EPA/DHA (7 grams of EPA/DHA would be 20 caps daily - no it's not possible to OD on fish oil ). There are other more pure methods such as cod liver oil which you need much less quantity to get a good dose. Mixed in a meal, the taste is hardly noticeable. I don't do any supplementation other than that.

[XRe]

FWIW... I used to supplement with strong doses of MSM, glucosamine, and HA to ward off some light knee pain (and it worked well, BTW). Upon going paleo w/ my diet, and taking a good whack of fish oil, I seem to have no need for joint supplements. Adding in some mobility work (so far, in my case, mostly foam roller stuff, and not (yet) the stuff Jake pointed at) has helped that much more...

If anything is like magic, the combo of those two things (which boil down to nutrition - a paleo/primal approach to eating, plus Omega-3 supplementation) seem to be it... Note that, if you eat pastured/grass-fed meats, you won't need the Omega-3s, either...

[Jake Di Vita]

Note that, if you eat pastured/grass-fed meats, you won't need the Omega-3s, either...

Depending on how many nuts you consume.

[RangerTrace]

Thread drift:

I'm in the market for a high quality pull-up/dip tower. I've looked at the Hoist model in person. It was a nice piece of equipment and cost $550. Anybody have suggestions on a better/less costly model? BTW, a doorway model is not an option.

Thanks,

Trace

[Cold Absolute Zero]

Jake,

Thanks for your input. I'll have to give those those glucosamine and Omega 3 supplements a try. Perhaps I can talk my wife into the paleo diet...in order for any diet succeed in our household she's got to be on board lol .

CAZ

[Jake Di Vita]

Check out Robb Wolf's book The Paleo Solution. Just got word that it's on the NYT Bestseller list. If she's willing to read that with an open mind, it's probably the best shot you got.

Trace,

Go to home depot, you can build a pull-up bar for less than $30. Make sure you use 1 1/2 pipe for the bar itself. I built one and hung it up in my garage. I don't like the "towers" because the majority of them aren't very stable. If you have to have a tower, I'd recommend getting some long treated 4 x 6s and putting it in concrete blocks outside.

[TMC]

Jake, any recommendations on a brand of Omega 3 supplements?

[Jake Di Vita]

Generic Costco stuff is just fine. Make sure to store it in the freezer to help keep it from going rancid. Obviously you can go the more pure route, but it's more expensive and usually not needed. 5 - 10g / day is a good place to start. If you are overweight or have health issues, more is better.

[Leozinho]

Crossfit= a bunch or random workouts written by a fat ass who drinks a bottle of gin for breakfast. Really there's youtube videos of him doing seminars where he's so liquored up he can barely stand. Coach Couch has also managed to throw everyone out of his inner circle who had the slightest bit of cred like Mark Ripptoe.

As most of the people on this forum are not 18 years old with shoulders of iron I really really recommend you discuss kipping pullups with your ortho before doing them.

Do you have a source for this?

The part of throwing people out of his inner circle is well documented. Mark Rippetoe (wrote the book on weight lifting technique), Dan John (wrote a lot of books on strength training), Mark Twight(wrote some books on climbing), Robb Wolf (wrote the book on Paleo), Gregg Everett (wrote a book on Oly lifting)... All left CF on less than cordial terms. There are more.

It's been said that there's no one at CF HQ left that has any S&C experience outside of CF, but I'm not going to bother to try to find a source for that.

Regarding being overweight and prone to drunken ramblings:

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/GG_AtChalkboard_Threshold_JournalPreview.wmv

Edited September 26, 2010 by Leozinho

[Taeaghe]

20 approaches 15 times every day, it became a habit, I am satisfied with my results in my years