'08 Rulebook - DQ's for AD

[Teche]

I must confess... I'm the one that this thread is regarding. I was practicing El Prez drills when the shot went off early. I had just finished the first string of 2+2+2 then executed a reload. After the reload I brought the gun to bear on the first target and just before full extension, while prepping the trigger the shot went off early. The shot DID hit the target. From the RO's POV I was aiming at the target with full intention for engagement. I agree with you that if the shot was w/in 3M or over the berm clearly this is an example of USGH but I think we have all experienced this type of "early shot" while engaging a target. All the same, for my own edification I would be very interested in know if anyone has had a similar experience that did result in a DQ. Reasons for the DQ?

Embarrassing for sure!

I need another Guinness!

Teche

Edited December 4, 2007 by Teche

[JThompson]

As the rules are written, was it a DQ? No. Bottom line is he had a non DQable AD. Do I agree with this? No. I think if at any time you let one go before you called it you had an AD and that's it. Just because you didn't send it over the berm or into your foot or a crowd, does not make it any less an AD.

The way the rules are written, some ADs are DQed and some are not... I don't happen to agree, but as an RO I would not impose my personal view over what's stated in the rules. If I was on a range with a shooter under my rules, he/she would have fired their last shot of the day. Period.

JT

Edited December 4, 2007 by JThompson

[joseywales]

Wow, this discussion is good. Thanks Steve.

I believe I have to weigh in the Carlos camp on this one. I would not DQ them because the firearm was in the act of engaging a target. When does this act start and when does it stop? In countless vids of many shooters, the first round from a draw or reload occurs before their arms have reached their desired extension. How am I to say that it was or was not an AD? When did the engagement really occur? Unsafe would be when the bullet is impacts anywhere but into the berm near a target. Even if the guy flinched, said Oh S*)&, and then continued, the bullet in this situation came from the gun while starting to engage a target and did not impact in an area unsafe. I WOULD give him a really nasty look afterwards though, and possibly recommend revolver division to him/her.

To be honest, I've seen it done that way before too, and I've been given the benefit of the doubt as well when I've let one go early. But now that I'm reflecting on it - not from a competitive shooter perspective - but from a safety perspective - wouldn't the appropriate/right thing to do be to just say "hey, my competitiveness and rush to do well today just took me beyond the edge of safety - I AD'd (and what's worse is that one of my friends could have been hurt by me), I'm done for today."

[SteveZ]

but I think we have all experienced this type of "early shot" while engaging a target.

I've done this before....except it was a pepper popper...prepped the trigger...gun went bang before I was "planning" on pulling the trigger..popper dropped. I wouldn't call this USGH.

I was once RO'ing a stage at a Area championship....stage had two low targets on it (i.e. in a pit) a wall and then two other targets at normal height...shooter had just engaged the two low targets...and was looking toward the two next targets...when the gun went off. The round impacted just to the right of the right target...I thought about it for a split second...and did nothing. Why? Because the shooter could EASILY argue that he was engaging the target with an extra round. I won't DQ unless I'm 100% sure it would stick.

I've even engaged targets before while not looking at them....nothing in the rules says you have to look AT the target to engage it.....I wouldn't recommend it...but I've done it.

Edited December 4, 2007 by SteveZ

[SA Friday]

Wow, this discussion is good. Thanks Steve.

I believe I have to weigh in the Carlos camp on this one. I would not DQ them because the firearm was in the act of engaging a target. When does this act start and when does it stop? In countless vids of many shooters, the first round from a draw or reload occurs before their arms have reached their desired extension. How am I to say that it was or was not an AD? When did the engagement really occur? Unsafe would be when the bullet is impacts anywhere but into the berm near a target. Even if the guy flinched, said Oh S*)&, and then continued, the bullet in this situation came from the gun while starting to engage a target and did not impact in an area unsafe. I WOULD give him a really nasty look afterwards though, and possibly recommend revolver division to him/her.

To be honest, I've seen it done that way before too, and I've been given the benefit of the doubt as well when I've let one go early. But now that I'm reflecting on it - not from a competitive shooter perspective - but from a safety perspective - wouldn't the appropriate/right thing to do be to just say "hey, my competitiveness and rush to do well today just took me beyond the edge of safety - I AD'd (and what's worse is that one of my friends could have been hurt by me), I'm done for today."

I can only commend another shooter for their honesty if they do this, but this would be from the shooters perspective. From the RO's perspective, and the letter of the rules, this would not be something I would give a DQ for. I would also clarify that based on where the bullet went in this AD, the target was being engaged, and therefore the gun was in a safe direction of fire. If the AD occurred in an direction that was not engaging a target, then yes, DQ. Part of safely handling a firearm is ensuring it's pointed in a safe direction.

Obviously, a very hard stance for DQ regardless could be made for this situation, but then again, based on these set of circumstances arbitrary DQ's for all perceived AD's could lead to more harm in the long run than good. I definately am not in favor of DQing and then letting it be arbitrated for every possible AD and I doubt anyone else would either. So, how do you know if someone AD'ed in this situation, a pause, a flinch. I've seen pauses and flinches from experienced shooters without an AD. One can argue that you 'just know' from experience. I agree, but that won't hold water at a major match, and so, why should it hold water at a club match?

Hypathetically, an RO could perceive an AD in very similar curcumstances at a match, be incorrect about the shooter ADing, and DQ the individual so they can arbitrate it out with the MD. This happens enough times and it becomes a matter of frustration for all shooters. There simply has to be a clearer delineation between right and wrong for the RO and the shooter, and that is the proximity of target engagement, a safe direction, where prepping the trigger is an accepted practice.

As I said before, this is a very interesting discussion. I find it interesting because the arguement for both sides can be compelling. Although I weighed in on my perspective, I'm not convinced that either side is totally wrong or totally right.

Edited December 4, 2007 by SA Friday

[G-ManBart]

I understand and appreciate your concern for safety. But, we have a rule that an AD outside the 3 meter circle is NOT an automatic DQ - suggesting that often times a round striking the ground beyond that radius is also not a DQ under USGH; to view it otherwise is to render the 3 meter circle meaningless.

Regards,

C.

Carlos,

I can see a little bit of both sides of this one really, but I did think of something when I read your comments that I haven't seen anyone else bring up.

Even if one were to view the 3m circle a bit differently (I'm not saying I do), it still wouldn't render it meaningless because the rule's primary purpose is to define a point at which there is zero room for interpretation...inside 3m is automatic, just like over the berm is automatic. I'm not sure how we can use a rule intended to define what isn't safe to support or refute what is safe....if that makes any sense.

To make it even more complicated, and we use a similar argument, we could hear someone say that any shot that doesn't clear the berm and is outside of the 3m circle is okay....clearly that's not the intent.

I think the crux of the problem is that it's just very difficult to split the hair fine enough to cover all situations. At the speeds we often operate at there's so little difference between an AD and a more deliberate shot that there isn't much separating the two. This weekend we had a stage that started out with three targets that were maybe five feet away at most. At that distance, and going full warp speed, you're pulling the trigger as soon as the gun is started in the general direction of the target....at least I know I was and I'm no GM. I remember thinking while I was shooting that the gun was going off and it was almost like being on autopilot...nothing along the lines of "okay, pull the trigger now". I'm pretty sure I could have let one off early, it would have still been a hit, and nobody would have known any different....and really, it would have been safe. That's not what I'd want or plan on, but I can see it happening and not being dangerous.

Very interesting thread!

[richardschennberg]

1. This incident demonstrates why guns must ALWAYS be pointed in a safe direction.

2. The RO should have already been watching for the shooter's finger OUT of the trigger guard during the reload. As long as the finger was not near the trigger, this is a gun malfunction, not an unsafe act on the part of the shooter. It looks like and AD, sounds like an AD, but IMO is not an AD in the "unsafe acts" sense. You still unload and show clear IMMEDIATELY after the unintended shot. However, instead of a DQ, you score all target hits up to that point (in this case the result will be a zero). Then you disqualify the gun (not the shooter) until it is fixed. All stages already shot count, and the shooter could resume shooting the remaining stages with a substitute gun (same caliber, same type of sights, re-chrono).

Richard

[ima45dv8]

Actually, the shooter is DQ'd. But, the exception defined in 10.4.9 provides that if appealed and it is found upon inspection to have been a faulty firearm, then the shooter may be reinstated.

[Teche]

"I remember thinking while I was shooting that the gun was going off and it was almost like being on autopilot...nothing along the lines of "okay, pull the trigger now". I'm pretty sure I could have let one off early, it would have still been a hit, and nobody would have known any different....and really, it would have been safe. That's not what I'd want or plan on, but I can see it happening and not being dangerous."

We have all "hose and go" on up close targets... it is part of the game in order to keep your time down. I think it raises an interesting question which is if you are shooting on auto-pilot are you not shootting AD's since you are not CONCSIONSLY thinking about calling each shot?

Teche

[SA Friday]

Um, guys, there was no gun malfunction. I'm confused as to how that came into this.

[ima45dv8]

Um, guys, there was no gun malfunction. I'm confused as to how that came into this.

I think Richard may have been trying to point out that in some rare instances a defective gun could have provided an AD-looking event very similar to what has been being discussed here.

[Teche]

You are corect in that there was not a gun malfunction. The reload was executed with finger out side the trigger guard.

[richardschennberg]

O.K. I think I misread but I have seen malfunctions where a gun doubled, slam-fired, or went off during magazine insertion. These are in fact hazardous but are the fault of the gun manufacturer, gunsmith, or excessive wear on the firearm. Perhaps in the case where the shooter was also the gunsmith it was actually his responsibility, but that would be hard to prove. Anyway, my previous post stands for the case of a gun malfunction.

For the case where a shooter fires too early but in a safe direction (as in the original post), I think it is still only a miss (or extra shot, if made up) but the shooter needs to take it as an extra safety lesson. I don't think it's an AD when the shooter fires too early in a safe direction towards the targets, but he needs to be more careful (prep the trigger a bit later) because this would have been an AD on a stage with movement if the target to be engaged was not yet visible.

Richard

[Alan Meek]

O.K. I think I misread but I have seen malfunctions where a gun doubled, slam-fired, or went off during magazine insertion. These are in fact hazardous but are the fault of the gun manufacturer, gunsmith, or excessive wear on the firearm. Perhaps in the case where the shooter was also the gunsmith it was actually his responsibility, but that would be hard to prove. Anyway, my previous post stands for the case of a gun malfunction.

For the case where a shooter fires too early but in a safe direction (as in the original post), I think it is still only a miss (or extra shot, if made up) but the shooter needs to take it as an extra safety lesson. I don't think it's an AD when the shooter fires too early in a safe direction towards the targets, but he needs to be more careful (prep the trigger a bit later) because this would have been an AD on a stage with movement if the target to be engaged was not yet visible.

Richard

FYI Everyone, the Broken Gun DQ Alibi was removed in the 2008 rulebook. See the 2004-2008 Differences document. It was rule 10.4.9 in the 2004 Rulebook

Alan

[ima45dv8]

O.K. I think I misread but I have seen malfunctions where a gun doubled, slam-fired, or went off during magazine insertion. These are in fact hazardous but are the fault of the gun manufacturer, gunsmith, or excessive wear on the firearm. Perhaps in the case where the shooter was also the gunsmith it was actually his responsibility, but that would be hard to prove. Anyway, my previous post stands for the case of a gun malfunction.

For the case where a shooter fires too early but in a safe direction (as in the original post), I think it is still only a miss (or extra shot, if made up) but the shooter needs to take it as an extra safety lesson. I don't think it's an AD when the shooter fires too early in a safe direction towards the targets, but he needs to be more careful (prep the trigger a bit later) because this would have been an AD on a stage with movement if the target to be engaged was not yet visible.

Richard

FYI Everyone, the Broken Gun DQ Alibi was removed in the 2008 rulebook. See the 2004-2008 Differences document. It was rule 10.4.9 in the 2004 Rulebook

Alan

That was one change I supported.

[Teche]

I don't think it's an AD when the shooter fires too early in a safe direction towards the targets, but he needs to be more careful (prep the trigger a bit later) because this would have been an AD on a stage with movement if the target to be engaged was not yet visible.

Richard

2nd!

Teche

[LPatterson]

I am in the - this AD was not a DQ - camp. I was out practicing with the revolver on targets set 15 feet apart trying to cut down on transition time. I decided the only way to make that happen was to start pulling the trigger before I got to the next target, some time during the first 50 attempts the gun went off early. Was it an AD sure but the gun was pointed in a safe direction and level with the targets. Should it have been a DQ in a match condition, I don't think so even though I had my finger on the trigger with the gun moving, I was stationary and the rule is about when I am moving.

Please refrain from sending someone to revolver division because they are unsafe with a bottom feeder.

[JThompson]

I am in the - this AD was not a DQ - camp. I was out practicing with the revolver on targets set 15 feet apart trying to cut down on transition time. I decided the only way to make that happen was to start pulling the trigger before I got to the next target, some time during the first 50 attempts the gun went off early. Was it an AD sure but the gun was pointed in a safe direction and level with the targets. Should it have been a DQ in a match condition, I don't think so even though I had my finger on the trigger with the gun moving, I was stationary and the rule is about when I am moving.

Please refrain from sending someone to revolver division because they are unsafe with a bottom feeder.

Comon Leroy... you guys will take anyone.

[SA Friday]

Actually, I made that comment because revolver shooters work trigger prep so much...

[LPatterson]

Actually, I made that comment because revolver shooters work trigger prep so much...

I understand that better after my attempt at practice now I just have to remember not to do it while changing positions. I think I am going to work on lightening the trigger over the next few months.