ExtremeShot Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 I've done a search of the forum and in google to find out the advantages of one ramp over the other. All I've really found that I would consider factual (and not just someone's opinion) is that the Para/Clark is easier to cut. Beyond cutting the frame, are there any other advantages (proven) of one ramp style over the other? For example, does one ramp style function better (cause less failure to feeds)? Does one ramp style crack more than the other? Does having one ramp style give you better accuracy? etc., etc. Thanks for the help, Darren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 The Clark/Para ramp needs only one setup to cut, rather the 2 for the Wilson/Nowlin. As far as function and accuracy there is no advantage to one ramp over the other. Those are functions of installation, not design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtremeShot Posted November 29, 2007 Author Share Posted November 29, 2007 So if you have two barrels and two frames in front of you and both are exactly the same except one is a Wilson/Nowlin and the other is a Para/Clark, which one do you choose and why? They are already cut by someone else. DM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike cyrwus Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 This is what a respected pistolsmith friend told me, that the clark/para cut has a smoother lockup and its easier on the frame. That said, Im building up a 40 right now with a wilson/nowlin cut. I dont see any real advantage for either one as far as the building process, past having the frame cut. If you are not the one building this gun, then you should ask the builder what he prefers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z40acp Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Go to Wil Schuemann's website for your answer. Basically he says the two have pretty equal failure rates until you add the Lissner radius and then the Para/Clark becomes better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtremeShot Posted November 29, 2007 Author Share Posted November 29, 2007 I saw this same comment on another thread but when I went to the Schuemann.com website I couldn't find anything. I'll look again. DM Go to Wil Schuemann's website for your answer. Basically he says the two have pretty equal failure rates until you add the Lissner radius and then the Para/Clark becomes better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtremeShot Posted November 29, 2007 Author Share Posted November 29, 2007 Ah, I found it the second time through under the "Ramped and Unramped barrels" section: http://www.schuemann.com/Content/aet6.htm I saw this same comment on another thread but when I went to the Schuemann.com website I couldn't find anything. I'll look again.DM Go to Wil Schuemann's website for your answer. Basically he says the two have pretty equal failure rates until you add the Lissner radius and then the Para/Clark becomes better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtremeShot Posted November 29, 2007 Author Share Posted November 29, 2007 (edited) From Schuemann.com: Ramped and Unramped barrels. Both ramped and unramped AET barrels will be offered.A short history of ramped barrels is appropriate. When the 38 Super was first introduced into IPSC shooting, the barrels used were unramped which, combined with loading inexperience, caused cartridge case walls to occasionally fail because of the combination of high case pressure and insufficient case wall support. This led to Bar-Sto introducing a ramped barrel with Bar-Sto designed lower lugs. The Bar-Sto lower lugs were weak and failures led to the development of what we now call the Wilson/Nowlin lower lugs. This was a stronger design. About the same time Clark developed what appeared to be an even stronger lower lug design which ParaOrdnance incorporated into the ParaOrdance pistol design. For a number of years barrels with the Wilson/Nowlin lower lug design outsold the Clark/ParaOrd lower lug design by two to one. The Wilson/Nowlin design had less load carrying metal but a nice radius at the maximum stress point to reduce the stress concentration at that maximum stress point. The Clark/ParaOrd lower lugs had more load carrying metal but no radius at the critical maximum stress point to reduce the stress concentration there. The actual strength of the two designed appeared equal because both the Wilson/Nowlin and the Clark/ParaOrd lower lug designs experienced a lower lug breakage rate of 1% to 2% per year, mostly because some gunsmiths haven't learn to properly time a 1911, and partly because the timing of a 1911 can change as it wears. Lissner, a barrel maker in Australia, modified the Clark/ParaOrd design to include a radius at the critical maximum stress point. We introduced the Lissner modification into our Clark/ParaOrd ramped barrels in about 1997. Since that time there has not been a single Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner ramped barrel returned to us because of a broken lower lug while the slow steady stream of broken Wilson/Nowlin lugged barrels continues. I won't claim that the Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner ramp can never fail, but it is obviously stronger, and therefore inherently more forgiving of sloppy gunsmithing, than the Wilson/Nowlin ramp design. It is easy to convert a Wilson/Nowlin ramped gun to use barrels with the Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner lower lugs. The conversion does not compromise the strength of the gun. Most gunsmiths eventually conclude that the Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner ramp is easier to install than the Wilson/Nowlin ramp. Our production, which used to be 2 to 1 in favor of Wilson/Nowlin lugged barrels three years ago has gradually changed to be 2 to 1 in favor of Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner lugged barrels today. The growing popularity of the Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner lower lugs combined with the relative weakness of the Wilson/Nowlin lower lugs, combined with the fact that existing guns equipped with the Wilson/Nowlin ramp can be easily converted to the Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner ramp convinced us to offer the AET barrels only with Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner lower lugs, and in the unramped configuration where appropriate. The standard line of Schuemann barrels will continue to include Wilson/Nowlin lower lugs, Clark/ParaOrd/Lissner lower lugs, and unramped lower lugs, as it always has. Edited November 29, 2007 by ExtremeShot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z40acp Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Sometimes choosing the ramp is a matter of availability of the barrel and frames and what you are trying to accomplish. Both are pretty strong. Another key to longevity, read about how he explains timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 ES, I've been reading this forum...and others...for years. I always pop in when I see a question on which ramp style. I always see, at best, a slight preference. But, I don't ever recall seeing anything that would deter me from one. (I happen to have a Nowlin ramped gun in parts now...waiting to be built one day.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 I believe the C/P Lissner cut to have stronger lugs on the barrel, if I cut the frame that is the only cut I use. That said, I haven't seen sheared lugs on a ramped barrel in a LONG time and both work great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 IMO If the gun is built right and the barrel is good, the lugs won't shear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 IMO If the gun is built right and the barrel is good, the lugs won't shear. +1 - and, I'd pass on a frame with a pre-cut ramp, unless you know who did it and they have a history of building guns correctly. That cut has a rather low tolerance, and if its off, you can have nice "phantom" 1 every 1000 round type of jams, etc. Buy an uncut frame and let the smith doing the building make the cut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 If I am cutting the frame I only use the P/C cut but that is based on a single set up in the mill. I don't think there is an advantage functionally from either one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtremeShot Posted December 1, 2007 Author Share Posted December 1, 2007 Yep. That's what I thought, that's why I ended up getting a precut Wilson/Nowlin STI slide from Shooters Connection. ..I figure STI should know how to cut them! I'd pass on a frame with a pre-cut ramp, unless you know who did it and they have a history of building guns correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtremeShot Posted December 1, 2007 Author Share Posted December 1, 2007 PS: Thanks for all the info guys. If I ever do the frame cut myself, I'll do a P/C. This time around I just didn't want to mess with cutting the frame. Thanks again! Darren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolduckboy Posted December 2, 2007 Share Posted December 2, 2007 So Would i be able to cut the P/C cut on my edge and still use the factory Upper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted December 2, 2007 Share Posted December 2, 2007 No. The barrel must match the ramp cut and your Edge was W/N cut at the factory. There is no compelling reason to change the cut, not even for a re-barrel, just buy another W/N barrel to put in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolduckboy Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Well, unfortunately, I don't have a choice since I got a Schuemann AET Tribrib II .38 super barrel from the A-1 prize table and have already bought a barrel (getting the rib cut) for this also trying to build an open setup. I guess i have one of two options: 1. Sell my STI N/C barrel and put another P/C barrel, refit. 2. Sell my open Upper and discontinue my adventure into open. Which would be the better route? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 3rd option - Recut Clark/Para barrel to Wilson/Nowlin and that way you can fit it to your edge's frame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolduckboy Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 PM the info on that type of option Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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