What does 'Milking the Grip' mean?

[socman777]

There's a third choice. Stop screwing around trying to figure out something that you're only going to think you understand, focus on what you actually want to have happen, learn how to make that happen and get beyond the problem entirely, and forever.

Besides, if your theories are right why is it you're still having the problem sometimes? There's a reason why some of the true experts stopped replying to this thread a while ago.

I have never said this here before and almost never say it anywhere else, but I guess there's always a first. With no offense intended: You just ain't gettin' dude. Good luck regardless R,

That'd be Mr. Dude to you, my good friend. I consider this forum to be among the most intelligent and respectful on the net, and I'd respectfully suggest that you restrain yourself from the obvious cheap shots that fail to educate, and that dominate your quickie post. Gentlemen can disagree with dignity, and there is surely room for different approaches to a problem.

I happen to be a big fan of Enos's principles and I would not be as quick as you to denigrate them. Awareness is a key element that you do not seem to either understand or accept. So allow me to respond - not to your cheap shots - but to some of your reasonable statements...

*********

Quoting the Bulldozer (italics), and responding...

"There's a third choice. Stop screwing around trying to figure out something that you're only going to think you understand, focus on what you actually want to have happen, learn how to make that happen and get beyond the problem entirely, and forever."

You still don't get it. I'm not "screwing around" (relax, please), or "...trying to figure out something". Awareness - as Enos speaks of it - is not analysis, which is actually your strong suit. Let's recall that it was you who bragged of your high tech, slow motion video analysis of milkers, apparently to help them "figure it out". You can't have it both ways.

"Besides, if your theories are right why is it you're still having the problem sometimes? There's a reason why some of the true experts stopped replying to this thread a while ago."

I'm not having the problem - don't make things up. Once I had the eye-opening experience of becoming aware of it, I simply stopped it. Fini. Apparently "true experts" can be wrong.

"The reason it's a backwards solution is because you're talking about trying to stop something rather than talking about trying to DO something, which is keep the sights aligned as the shot breaks. How you get to keeping the sights aligned as the shot breaks isn't nearly as important as actually getting there."

Pardon me if this doesn't register with you, but the Zen of it is that doing nothing is doing something. The notion is to stop milking, not hope that doing (or not doing) something else might cover it up.

"If you milk the grip and the bullet doesn't go where you wanted it to, it was because the milking happened before the shot broke, and the sights were no longer where you wanted them to be, but you didn't see the change."

We agree. Most people don't see the change, and don't even know they are milking as it happens. Watching the sights won't help them.

"I've seen this with many, many shooters and I've seen the actual proof of what's happening in graph and slow motion video form from two or three angles on each one so I'm not talking theory here, I'm talking about what really has to happen to cause the symptoms you're describing."

Which does nothing to increase the shooter's awareness while it is happening. A fun experiment though.

"To suggest that the sights are aligned when the shot breaks and that the bullet hits somewhere other than where the sights were pointed because of milking tells me whoever is saying it doesn't really understand the process and how it all fits together. I'm not saying that to be mean, but physics in this sort of situation isn't really negotiable."

I don't mean to be mean either, but I didn't suggest that. Don't misrepresent me. We all know that milking moves the sights, don't be ridiculous - the issue for most is that they are simply not aware of the sights moving at the last moment, no matter how hard they try. Please.

"You said you started having the problem while shooting .22lr and I have no reason to doubt that. I just said that 99% of the time people with the low, left, milking problem don't normally have it with a .22, but there are going to be a few who that doesn't apply to."

I'd say that there are many. Low and left is probably one of the most common issues for new shooters and it matters not what's in their hand.

"Further, someone trying to analyze something that they really don't understand, and focusing on what they don't want to do is counter-productive."

I couldn't disagree more. It is you who fails to understand the value of awareness in shooting. This has nothing to do with technical analysis (your approach) but with in-the-moment awareness (Enos). I believe that good shooting is ALL about awareness. Focusand reliance on technique can be counterproductive. Until you are fully aware of everything you do when you are shooting, you will remain stuck (refer Enos).

"They need to work on getting the desired results first, then they can go back and break down the process later if they feel the need to...."

Enos would disagree, and I most certainly do. Although we all practice technique, in real shooting he'd advise you to concentrate on becoming aware and to forget about the results. Become aware, and the results will naturally follow.

"But they won't need to if they learn to call their shots because they're going to stop doing whatever it is that's causing the sights to move before the shot breaks. The key is learning to see the movement rather than learning to "not milk the grip"."

In the world of medicine we call this treating the symptoms (rather than treating the cause). The tail doesn't wag the dog, and watching the sights does not stop milking, it merely tries to correct for it. A time consuming stop gap.

"When we put someone with this problem on the system with the trigger graph and the video glasses they get to see the shot in slow motion. It's very easy for them to see that the gun dips low and left just before the shot breaks. Essentially we're shortcutting the process of learning to call the shot by using slow motion video."

Yes, a crude first step is proving to them that they are, in fact, milking. But until they can become fully aware of it - not on video, but while it is actually happening - nothing will change much. OTOH, when you become aware in real time of your milking - while you are doing it - you'll be able to call the shot low and left regardless of where you thought the sights were. Heck, once I've aligned the sights, I can close my eyes and tell you if I'm gonna go low and left or not by the feel alone.

"For those without access to a gadget like this it'll take longer, but when they learn to call the shot, they'll see the same thing and they'll stop doing whatever it is that's causing the problem."

Au contraire. It took exactly one trip to the range for me to finally become aware of what I was doing - as I was doing it - and to simply stop it.

"To take it a step farther, the real root of the problem, since you're talking about really, really understanding it isn't actually in the flexing of the grip pressure....at least in the overwhelming majority of cases. That's almost always a symptom rather than a cause. The cause is accelerating the trigger press too rapidly."

Again you misrepresent me, I guess to make your own point. You apparently can't stop thinking in terms of technique as "solution". The solution is not any given technique, or lack thereof, but first in awareness. Let me defer to Brian once again, who makes it clear that the issue not rapidity (speed) but smoothness. Pull smooth - sans milking - and you can pull smooth AND fast. Let's not confuse trigger slapping - or pickling as you like to call it - with milking.

"I have never noticed myself "milking" the grip. What I did notice when I first started shooting, was that I was anticipating the recoil, which led me to push the barrel down, and to the left right before (during?) the trigger pull. How I cured it was just to focus on the sights and the target, and totally ignore what my trigger finger was doing..."

Oh now I get it. Because you weren't milking and your "solution" was to "focus on the sights", that oughta work for everyone else who IS milking. Huh? In truth it's important to be fully aware of everything you do, including the trigger finger.

"After several sessions of doing this, it came naturally, I didn't have to think about focusing the front and rear sight on the target, or keeping my eyes open, or anything else. Again, keep the sights aligned, and the bullet will go where it is aimed. Personally, I think that if you are physically trying to "fix" the milking problem, you are thinking too much."

You aren't trying to "fix" everybody's milking problem? With all your data filled posts, coulda fooled me. Let's see, you take copious slow motion videos and x-ray studies of their shooting techniques, from various angles, and with all manner of technical apparatus, timers, post-analysis and discussion and you accuse me of "thinking too much"?! That's a good one.

The kind of awareness I'm talking about requires quieting the mind, not shifting it into high gear. I'm not wedded to any glib solution, simply to Enos' well taken notion that awareness is the basis of good shooting. What each shooter will learn is different, but one thing is for sure: becoming aware - of milking or of any other practice - is the basis of good shooting. Being shackled to technical "solutions" is not.

Bottom line:

You are truly the bulldozer. All about brute force, glib treat-the-symptom solutions to what is an insufficently understood problem. You don't need no stinkeen awareness. Just check into the outpatient clinic, we'll wire ya up, scope ya, run a buncha slo-mo videos, show ya what yer doin, and then - to heck with awareness, just don't move them sights, you'll be fine.

Ooooooooo K!

One last thing: my dear Mr. Bulldozer, we disagree and that's fine. It is obvious you believe in your slice and dice, wired up and videotaped analytical approach. But if I've achieved anything here, I hope it was to open people's minds to another, more Zenlike point of view, namely the value of awareness in becoming a better shooter.

I hope I've achieved that with the respect that you, I and all the other posters here deserve.

[lugnut]

The original question: "What does milking the grip mean?" One possible answer along with the many good ones offered here would be this.

Milking the grip means failing to isolate the movement of the trigger finger whilst firing the shot. This failure to isolate the movement of the trigger finger imparts unwanted movement into the sight alignment the moment before the shot breaks.

To the untrained mind, the mis-alignment of the sights (which diagnoses the problem) is not detected since it occurs just before the sights lift. The untrained mind has already "signed off" on observing the sight alignment because it knows that the sights will soon "jump" anyway, and fails to stay focused on what they eyes are seeing at the moment. (lack of attention)

Yes, the eyes do see the sights move off the intended aiming point, but the mind had already jumped ahead the the next big thing, seeing the sights lift, so it ignores what it sees.

+1 This is one of the best posts in this long thread. Sums up what happens quite nicely I might say.

However I can dry fire till the cows come home but when the buzzer go off in a match when the heart is racing... and I have real loads in the gun I still need to find "the way" to isolate that trigger movement. It's really that simple.... or it should be. But controling this to the extent that we all really want is not that easy to some people. Now don't get me wrong my shots don't always drop low and left or just low... sometimes they go high or left or right. The problem is trying to isolate the problem(s) during a COF. Seeing your sight drop is huge, don't get me wrong.. but was my grip just off, did I try to look over the sights to see my target, or did I milk it, or did I just have a bad hold when I made a good trigger pull?

Man guys... I just wish there was an easy answer. When I can get a great group centered around my point of aim while firing fast at 25yds... I'll know I got it down. Till then, more work, training and observing.

[GrumpyOne]

Socman777, back up. You attributed some quotes to Bart that are mine, not his. Go back and look through the posts and you will see. Now, if you don't agree with my method, I have no problem with that, it's what worked for me. I personally don't give a rat's patootie what philosophy I followed to get better, as long as I got better. Some of us were just stating what WE did to stop the issue, not the entire philisophical method behind shooting and Zen. Everyone's Zen is different.

By the way, this was my quote you attributed to Gman.

I have never noticed myself "milking" the grip. What I did notice when I first started shooting, was that I was anticipating the recoil, which led me to push the barrel down, and to the left right before (during?) the trigger pull. How I cured it was just to focus on the sights and the target, and totally ignore what my trigger finger was doing, trying not to "feel" the sear, or the break of the trigger. In essence, nevermind what everything below the top strap of the gun is doing, keep your eyes open, line up the sights, see the hole appear in the target, then pull the trigger, all the while not blinking and keeping the sights in alignment. After several sessions of doing this, it came naturally, I didn't have to think about focusing the front and rear sight on the target, or keeping my eyes open, or anything else. Again, keep the sights aligned, and the bullet will go where it is aimed. Personally, I think that if you are physically trying to "fix" the milking problem, you are thinking too much.

[G-ManBart]

That'd be Mr. Dude to you, my good friend. I consider this forum to be among the most intelligent and respectful on the net, and I'd respectfully suggest that you restrain yourself from the obvious cheap shots that fail to educate, and that dominate your quickie post. Gentlemen can disagree with dignity, and there is surely room for different approaches to a problem.

I happen to be a big fan of Enos's principles and I would not be as quick as you to denigrate them. Awareness is a key element that you do not seem to either understand or accept. So allow me to respond - not to your cheap shots - but to some of your reasonable statements...

You are truly the bulldozer. All about brute force, glib treat-the-symptom solutions to what is an insufficently understood problem. You don't need no stinkeen awareness. Just check into the outpatient clinic, we'll wire ya up, scope ya, run a buncha slo-mo videos, show ya what yer doin, and then - to heck with awareness, just don't move them sights, you'll be fine.

Ooooooooo K!

One last thing: my dear Mr. Bulldozer, we disagree and that's fine. It is obvious you believe in your slice and dice, wired up and videotaped analytical approach. But if I've achieved anything here, I hope it was to open people's minds to another, more Zenlike point of view, namely the value of awareness in becoming a better shooter.

I hope I've achieved that with the respect that you, I and all the other posters here deserve.

I've spent literally hours on this thread trying to break it down step by step so you'd understand what's really going on when someone has the problem you're describing so it's not like I just threw out a comment and left it at that...and I was polite in my last comment, even if it's not something you'd want to hear. After all of that I said what is very clear....you're not getting it and don't seem to want to get it.

Quite simply, from many of your statements it's very clear that you don't understand how the whole trigger press, sight alignment thing really works when done properly. I've put quite a bit of effort into breaking that down so you would know how it really works by describing it step by step. None of that was taking cheap shots or being glib.

You're talking about theories and ideas (that don't seem to have worked from your own description), I'm talking about facts and very specific knowledge that quite simply very few people have been lucky enough to witness.

You want to believe that your way is going to work and you're certainly entitled to that, but it doesn't sound like it's been successful. I don't have the problem you're describing and I've helped many people with that problem fix it....forever. So, if you're the one with the issue and you only want to believe your ideas that's fine, but it sorta reminds me of the definition of insanity....doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

If someone has the low left problem they can try to figure out why they're missing low and left or they can learn the proper technique and they won't hit low and left any longer....simple. In fact, by doing so they'll figure out why they were hitting low and left almost at the same time

Oh, and brute force isn't about my method of shooting or instructing (I always get the problem shooters and the "sensitive" shooters who are easily upset for a reason...no complaints yet). If it was I might be the person with the trigger control/low left problem

Oh and about the whole Zen/Enos thing, I've been a student of that since Brian's book first came out and I'm pretty sure the "awareness" you're talking about isn't anything I've seen in the book. If it was there'd be a chapter on breaking down your mistakes so you really know how to make them better than you did before. Besides, you're still thinking that being aware of your fingers moving is a causal action when it's a reaction....you're aware of something, but don't understand where it's really coming from so I'd say that's the opposite...it's actually ignorance (and I don't mean that in a mean way, just a lack of knowledge way). R,

Edit to add: lastly, unless you say somethin' bad about my mother this is my last post on the topic

Edited August 27, 2009 by G-ManBart