What does 'Milking the Grip' mean?

[socman777]

Bart, aka Bulldozer - and you are well named - I think we agree more than not. I'm really not into parsing but occasionally it has value in dissecting an issue...

"That's honestly a backwards solution. . To try and learn, disect and focus on what you don't want to do is a negative view."

Actually, it's a frontwards solution. To stop something - anything - it's important to know just what it is we are trying to stop. The vague assumption that you are "milking" doesn't mean much, and accordingly, a solution to something that may not even be happening may not be a solution at all.

Remember, the original poster asked "What does milking mean?". It is clear he doesn't know what milking is - or whether he is "milking" or not. In response he got a lot of replies solving a problem not yet really identified. My suggestion is to FIRST work to become completely aware of just what is happening, and exactly how it feels.

To first answer his question. And THEN to solve it, once he is completely AWARE of what it is he may or may not be doing.

"Nothing matters but having the sights be where you want them when the shot breaks... I have seen absolute proof that the front sight can be buried (visually) against the side of the rear sight notch when you shoot and the impact will still stay on the target at 25yds".

Your observation assumes no milking. Milk and the impact will NOT "stay on the target" at 5 yards, much less 25. You could just as well say "nothing matters but shooting accurately" and that would be equally helpful.

"The idea that a perfect trigger press is necessary is false as well... as long as the sights are in the right place when the shot breaks, it really doesn't matter."

Ibid. Assuming no milking. You quote the intended result as the solution. Nothing matters but shooting accurately.

"In probably 99% of the cases you can take the "grip milker", hand them a 22lr pistol and they won't hit low and left after about five seconds. "

Really! Not so fast. Just so happens I started out shooting my Glock 34 with an Advantage Arms 22lr conversion kit, and surprise! That's when my low and left problem started. If 22lr was the solution, no one told me. For me milking had nothing to do with recoil or power - by the time the gun fires the damage is done. Rather, "milking" has everything to with, uh, milking. I think you're conflating flinch with milking.

And milking - and becoming aware of just what it is - remains the first step in stopping it. This is true of any problem in life - first become aware of it, and THEN solve it. All the techniques you read do nothing but cover up or compensate for milking without directly identifying or addressing it.

"If you're trying to shoot a match and thinking about whether you're milking the grip or not....well, you're going to be very limited in ultimate potential from the get go."

Here you misunderstand me - the goal is to eliminate milking - to go beyond it to a new, milk-free awareness. Developing keen awareness of "milking" is simply an initial (and temporary) step in ELIMINATING it. You can't eliminate something of which you are not aware. Once eliminated, there is nothing negative of which to be further aware! Your new awareness will be of proper shooting. Capish?

"The problem is that it's not easy to just start watching your front sight and calling your shots and people want to go faster than what they're capable of seeing so they try alternative solutions that are usually a longer road to the same place. "

You can watch your sights all day long, and try to call your shots - but if you are unknowingly milking - it really won't help. Believe me, I tried. On the other hand, once you DO become aware of exactly what milking is to you, and how it feels - only then can you simply stop it, and focus on the sights.

It's easier to stop something once you know what it is.

Now. Not to complicate things but I think another piece of excellent advice is that by Duane Thomas, above, regarding the subconscious. Also keep in mind that Brian himself has advised that trigger pull practice - without sights and with FULL AWARENESS - has great value.

Think about it. First become aware - then stop it!

You can't stop milking by changing the cow, or the bulldozer, lol...

Edited August 13, 2009 by socman777

[lugnut]

LOL... In summary... if it was easy and straightforward... we'd all shoot like Dave Sevigny! Calling shots "should be" easy... but even people like BE and other advanced shooters admit it takes time to figure out. I've seen plenty of awesome master level shooters not realize that they had missed a target... they didn't call the Mike. It's a damn challenging thing to eliminate all variables that cause bad shots... I know I'm a decent shooter... and I know my other fingers have some influence on my gun. Has it got better- damn right it has... but I still have work to do. Milking has it's degrees....

[G-ManBart]

Bart, aka Bulldozer - and you are well named - I think we agree more than not. I'm really not into parsing but occasionally it has value in dissecting an issue...

"That's honestly a backwards solution. . To try and learn, disect and focus on what you don't want to do is a negative view."

Actually, it's a frontwards solution. To stop something - anything - it's important to know just what it is we are trying to stop. The vague assumption that you are "milking" doesn't mean much, and accordingly, a solution to something that may not even be happening may not be a solution at all.

Remember, the original poster asked "What does milking mean?". It is clear he doesn't know what milking is - or whether he is "milking" or not. In response he got a lot of replies solving a problem not yet really identified. My suggestion is to FIRST work to become completely aware of just what is happening, and exactly how it feels.

To first answer his question. And THEN to solve it, once he is completely AWARE of what it is he may or may not be doing.

"Nothing matters but having the sights be where you want them when the shot breaks... I have seen absolute proof that the front sight can be buried (visually) against the side of the rear sight notch when you shoot and the impact will still stay on the target at 25yds".

Your observation assumes no milking. Milk and the impact will NOT "stay on the target" at 5 yards, much less 25. You could just as well say "nothing matters but shooting accurately" and that would be equally helpful.

"The idea that a perfect trigger press is necessary is false as well... as long as the sights are in the right place when the shot breaks, it really doesn't matter."

Ibid. Assuming no milking. You quote the intended result as the solution. Nothing matters but shooting accurately.

"In probably 99% of the cases you can take the "grip milker", hand them a 22lr pistol and they won't hit low and left after about five seconds. "

Really! Not so fast. Just so happens I started out shooting my Glock 34 with an Advantage Arms 22lr conversion kit, and surprise! That's when my low and left problem started. If 22lr was the solution, no one told me. For me milking had nothing to do with recoil or power - by the time the gun fires the damage is done. Rather, "milking" has everything to with, uh, milking. I think you're conflating flinch with milking.

And milking - and becoming aware of just what it is - remains the first step in stopping it. This is true of any problem in life - first become aware of it, and THEN solve it. All the techniques you read do nothing but cover up or compensate for milking without directly identifying or addressing it.

"If you're trying to shoot a match and thinking about whether you're milking the grip or not....well, you're going to be very limited in ultimate potential from the get go."

Here you misunderstand me - the goal is to eliminate milking - to go beyond it to a new, milk-free awareness. Developing keen awareness of "milking" is simply an initial (and temporary) step in ELIMINATING it. You can't eliminate something of which you are not aware. Once eliminated, there is nothing negative of which to be further aware! Your new awareness will be of proper shooting. Capish?

"The problem is that it's not easy to just start watching your front sight and calling your shots and people want to go faster than what they're capable of seeing so they try alternative solutions that are usually a longer road to the same place. "

You can watch your sights all day long, and try to call your shots - but if you are unknowingly milking - it really won't help. Believe me, I tried. On the other hand, once you DO become aware of exactly what milking is to you, and how it feels - only then can you simply stop it, and focus on the sights.

It's easier to stop something once you know what it is.

Now. Not to complicate things but I think another piece of excellent advice is that by Duane Thomas, above, regarding the subconscious. Also keep in mind that Brian himself has advised that trigger pull practice - without sights and with FULL AWARENESS - has great value.

Think about it. First become aware - then stop it!

You can't stop milking by changing the cow, or the bulldozer, lol...

The reason it's a backwards solution is because you're talking about trying to stop something rather than talking about trying to DO something, which is keep the sights aligned as the shot breaks. How you get to keeping the sights aligned as the shot breaks isn't nearly as important as actually getting there.

Your observation assumes no milking. Milk and the impact will NOT "stay on the target" at 5 yards, much less 25. You could just as well say "nothing matters but shooting accurately" and that would be equally helpful.

100% untrue and that isn't an opinion in any way, shape or form. If the sights are where you want them to be when the shot breaks the bullet must go where the sights were pointed (within the accuracy ability of the gun, of course). If you milk the grip and the bullet doesn't go where you wanted it to, it was because the milking happened before the shot broke, and the sights were no longer where you wanted them to be, but you didn't see the change.

Milking that causes the bullet impact to move significantly is a pre-ignition anticipation problem. The shooter is actively doing something with their hands before the shot breaks that makes a major change in the sight alignment and if it's so bad that the bullet is no longer on the target at 5yds it's beyond a simple "milking" and into the full blown flinch mode...very likely combined with blinking because there's no way to not notice the sights pointed that far off line if the shooter has their eyes open when it happens.

Think about sheer basics here. You're talking about having the muzzle pointed something like an inch to an inch and a half (I just eyeballed this with a gun and target at that distance) low and left to miss a 5yd target...that's a huge angular change from where you start (pointed in the middle of the target).

I've seen this with many, many shooters and I've seen the actual proof of what's happening in graph and slow motion video form from two or three angles on each one so I'm not talking theory here, I'm talking about what really has to happen to cause the symptoms you're describing. To suggest that the sights are aligned when the shot breaks and that the bullet hits somewhere other than where the sights were pointed because of milking tells me whoever is saying it doesn't really understand the process and how it all fits together. I'm not saying that to be mean, but physics in this sort of situation isn't really negotiable.

You said you started having the problem while shooting .22lr and I have no reason to doubt that. I just said that 99% of the time people with the low, left, milking problem don't normally have it with a .22, but there are going to be a few who that doesn't apply to.

Further, someone trying to analyze something that they really don't understand, and focusing on what they don't want to do is counter-productive. They need to work on getting the desired results first, then they can go back and break down the process later if they feel the need to....but they won't need to if they learn to call their shots because they're going to stop doing whatever it is that's causing the sights to move before the shot breaks. The key is learning to see the movement rather than learning to "not milk the grip". Like I said, they might get some success with trying it the other way, but it's going to fail them sooner or later and likely when they don't want to.

Before Duane's comment about the subconscious aspect I said the same thing in different words. When we put someone with this problem on the system with the trigger graph and the video glasses they get to see the shot in slow motion. It's very easy for them to see that the gun dips low and left just before the shot breaks. Essentially we're shortcutting the process of learning to call the shot by using slow motion video. For those without access to a gadget like this it'll take longer, but when they learn to call the shot, they'll see the same thing and they'll stop doing whatever it is that's causing the problem. Spending days and weeks fooling with grip pressure, actively thinking while shooting or doing some other sort of method to try and understand what they're doing wrong will simply take more time and will ultimately fail them because they've never learned to do what they want to do, they've just learned what they're doing that they don't want to do.

To take it a step farther, the real root of the problem, since you're talking about really, really understanding it isn't actually in the flexing of the grip pressure....at least in the overwhelming majority of cases. That's almost always a symptom rather than a cause. The cause is accelerating the trigger press too rapidly. This is usually caused when someone is lining up the sights, trying to get them perfectly aligned and when they are they rapidly accelerate the trigger (often from a static position they were holding as the sights lined up "just right")....they're trying to "pickle" it or "snatch" the shot. That causes the fingers/hands to flex, the gun dips down and left and then the shot breaks with the gun pointed off the target, which is where the bullet goes. The funny thing is that none of that is really necessary to know either...just learn to call the shot and your brain will figure out a way to stop the bad action that's causing the problem. R,

[GrumpyOne]

I've been following this for a couple of days, and something doesn't seem....right...about some pointers offered.

First was the quote attributed to Ayoob -- "1. use a death grip, isolate the trigger finger'

And now, "...grip tighter'.

I'm pretty sure that/those are going to take you in the wrong direction. As grip pressure with your strong/primary shooting hand increases, it doesn't isolate momement of the trigger finger from others, it ties them more closely together. Relaxing the grip pressure (or, at least reducing excessive grip pressure) with the primary hand may give you the proper trigger momement and control you desire.

A demo I sometimes do with people is to have them curl their hand like it was holding a pistol (bird, ring and little fingers curved/hooked, index finger straight). Have a buddy do the same. Stand in front of one another and hook your curved fingers together. Each of you place the pad of your index fingers on the base of your buddy's thumb (try it and you'll see what I mean). Each of you take a grip on the others curved fingers with your own, using about the same force as you would when swinging a hammer. Press your trigger finger back and forth smoothly against your buddy's thumb. Concentrate on s-m-o-o-t-h. Pretty easy, actually.

Now increase your grip, to the point of the "death grip" previously advised. Repeat the exercise and notice how it's now virtually impossible to move your trigger finger smoothly. The hyper-increased muscle tension is imparted to the entire muscle group in that hand. It does not isolate the movement of the trigger finger. In fact, the reverse is true.

With hyper-grip, when you press the trigger you're almost certain to milk the grip as all the muscles are moving, and tightening, together.

Here's a very practical and enlightening exercise to try:

Matt Burkette's Timing Drills

I hope this helps (and made sense)...

The article I read by Ayoob stated " With a revolver, squeeze the grip as tight as you can, until your hand starts to shake, then back off". He also said to curl your thumbs down with the revolver. In all of this, I don't think Ayoob was actually talking about grips for competitive shooters, but more along the lines of someone not so skilled, using the pistol/revolver in a self defense situation. When you think about it, it fits. In a defensive situation, who cares that your shot is a little low and to left, as long as it hits the offender. I could be way off base though.....

[GrumpyOne]

Bart, aka Bulldozer - and you are well named - I think we agree more than not. I'm really not into parsing but occasionally it has value in dissecting an issue...

"That's honestly a backwards solution. . To try and learn, disect and focus on what you don't want to do is a negative view."

Actually, it's a frontwards solution. To stop something - anything - it's important to know just what it is we are trying to stop. The vague assumption that you are "milking" doesn't mean much, and accordingly, a solution to something that may not even be happening may not be a solution at all.

Remember, the original poster asked "What does milking mean?". It is clear he doesn't know what milking is - or whether he is "milking" or not. In response he got a lot of replies solving a problem not yet really identified. My suggestion is to FIRST work to become completely aware of just what is happening, and exactly how it feels.

To first answer his question. And THEN to solve it, once he is completely AWARE of what it is he may or may not be doing.

"Nothing matters but having the sights be where you want them when the shot breaks... I have seen absolute proof that the front sight can be buried (visually) against the side of the rear sight notch when you shoot and the impact will still stay on the target at 25yds".

Your observation assumes no milking. Milk and the impact will NOT "stay on the target" at 5 yards, much less 25. You could just as well say "nothing matters but shooting accurately" and that would be equally helpful.

"The idea that a perfect trigger press is necessary is false as well... as long as the sights are in the right place when the shot breaks, it really doesn't matter."

Ibid. Assuming no milking. You quote the intended result as the solution. Nothing matters but shooting accurately.

"In probably 99% of the cases you can take the "grip milker", hand them a 22lr pistol and they won't hit low and left after about five seconds. "

Really! Not so fast. Just so happens I started out shooting my Glock 34 with an Advantage Arms 22lr conversion kit, and surprise! That's when my low and left problem started. If 22lr was the solution, no one told me. For me milking had nothing to do with recoil or power - by the time the gun fires the damage is done. Rather, "milking" has everything to with, uh, milking. I think you're conflating flinch with milking.

And milking - and becoming aware of just what it is - remains the first step in stopping it. This is true of any problem in life - first become aware of it, and THEN solve it. All the techniques you read do nothing but cover up or compensate for milking without directly identifying or addressing it.

"If you're trying to shoot a match and thinking about whether you're milking the grip or not....well, you're going to be very limited in ultimate potential from the get go."

Here you misunderstand me - the goal is to eliminate milking - to go beyond it to a new, milk-free awareness. Developing keen awareness of "milking" is simply an initial (and temporary) step in ELIMINATING it. You can't eliminate something of which you are not aware. Once eliminated, there is nothing negative of which to be further aware! Your new awareness will be of proper shooting. Capish?

"The problem is that it's not easy to just start watching your front sight and calling your shots and people want to go faster than what they're capable of seeing so they try alternative solutions that are usually a longer road to the same place. "

You can watch your sights all day long, and try to call your shots - but if you are unknowingly milking - it really won't help. Believe me, I tried. On the other hand, once you DO become aware of exactly what milking is to you, and how it feels - only then can you simply stop it, and focus on the sights.

It's easier to stop something once you know what it is.

Now. Not to complicate things but I think another piece of excellent advice is that by Duane Thomas, above, regarding the subconscious. Also keep in mind that Brian himself has advised that trigger pull practice - without sights and with FULL AWARENESS - has great value.

Think about it. First become aware - then stop it!

You can't stop milking by changing the cow, or the bulldozer, lol...

The reason it's a backwards solution is because you're talking about trying to stop something rather than talking about trying to DO something, which is keep the sights aligned as the shot breaks. How you get to keeping the sights aligned as the shot breaks isn't nearly as important as actually getting there.

Your observation assumes no milking. Milk and the impact will NOT "stay on the target" at 5 yards, much less 25. You could just as well say "nothing matters but shooting accurately" and that would be equally helpful.

100% untrue and that isn't an opinion in any way, shape or form. If the sights are where you want them to be when the shot breaks the bullet must go where the sights were pointed (within the accuracy ability of the gun, of course). If you milk the grip and the bullet doesn't go where you wanted it to, it was because the milking happened before the shot broke, and the sights were no longer where you wanted them to be, but you didn't see the change.

Milking that causes the bullet impact to move significantly is a pre-ignition anticipation problem. The shooter is actively doing something with their hands before the shot breaks that makes a major change in the sight alignment and if it's so bad that the bullet is no longer on the target at 5yds it's beyond a simple "milking" and into the full blown flinch mode...very likely combined with blinking because there's no way to not notice the sights pointed that far off line if the shooter has their eyes open when it happens.

Think about sheer basics here. You're talking about having the muzzle pointed something like an inch to an inch and a half (I just eyeballed this with a gun and target at that distance) low and left to miss a 5yd target...that's a huge angular change from where you start (pointed in the middle of the target).

I've seen this with many, many shooters and I've seen the actual proof of what's happening in graph and slow motion video form from two or three angles on each one so I'm not talking theory here, I'm talking about what really has to happen to cause the symptoms you're describing. To suggest that the sights are aligned when the shot breaks and that the bullet hits somewhere other than where the sights were pointed because of milking tells me whoever is saying it doesn't really understand the process and how it all fits together. I'm not saying that to be mean, but physics in this sort of situation isn't really negotiable.

You said you started having the problem while shooting .22lr and I have no reason to doubt that. I just said that 99% of the time people with the low, left, milking problem don't normally have it with a .22, but there are going to be a few who that doesn't apply to.

Further, someone trying to analyze something that they really don't understand, and focusing on what they don't want to do is counter-productive. They need to work on getting the desired results first, then they can go back and break down the process later if they feel the need to....but they won't need to if they learn to call their shots because they're going to stop doing whatever it is that's causing the sights to move before the shot breaks. The key is learning to see the movement rather than learning to "not milk the grip". Like I said, they might get some success with trying it the other way, but it's going to fail them sooner or later and likely when they don't want to.

Before Duane's comment about the subconscious aspect I said the same thing in different words. When we put someone with this problem on the system with the trigger graph and the video glasses they get to see the shot in slow motion. It's very easy for them to see that the gun dips low and left just before the shot breaks. Essentially we're shortcutting the process of learning to call the shot by using slow motion video. For those without access to a gadget like this it'll take longer, but when they learn to call the shot, they'll see the same thing and they'll stop doing whatever it is that's causing the problem. Spending days and weeks fooling with grip pressure, actively thinking while shooting or doing some other sort of method to try and understand what they're doing wrong will simply take more time and will ultimately fail them because they've never learned to do what they want to do, they've just learned what they're doing that they don't want to do.

To take it a step farther, the real root of the problem, since you're talking about really, really understanding it isn't actually in the flexing of the grip pressure....at least in the overwhelming majority of cases. That's almost always a symptom rather than a cause. The cause is accelerating the trigger press too rapidly. This is usually caused when someone is lining up the sights, trying to get them perfectly aligned and when they are they rapidly accelerate the trigger (often from a static position they were holding as the sights lined up "just right")....they're trying to "pickle" it or "snatch" the shot. That causes the fingers/hands to flex, the gun dips down and left and then the shot breaks with the gun pointed off the target, which is where the bullet goes. The funny thing is that none of that is really necessary to know either...just learn to call the shot and your brain will figure out a way to stop the bad action that's causing the problem. R,

I have never noticed myself "milking" the grip. What I did notice when I first started shooting, was that I was anticipating the recoil, which led me to push the barrel down, and to the left right before (during?) the trigger pull. How I cured it was just to focus on the sights and the target, and totally ignore what my trigger finger was doing, trying not to "feel" the sear, or the break of the trigger. In essence, nevermind what everything below the top strap of the gun is doing, keep your eyes open, line up the sights, see the hole appear in the target, then pull the trigger, all the while not blinking and keeping the sights in alignment. After several sessions of doing this, it came naturally, I didn't have to think about focusing the front and rear sight on the target, or keeping my eyes open, or anything else. Again, keep the sights aligned, and the bullet will go where it is aimed. Personally, I think that if you are physically trying to "fix" the milking problem, you are thinking too much.

[ima45dv8]

The article I read by Ayoob stated " With a revolver, squeeze the grip as tight as you can, until your hand starts to shake, then back off". He also said to curl your thumbs down with the revolver. In all of this, I don't think Ayoob was actually talking about grips for competitive shooters, but more along the lines of someone not so skilled, using the pistol/revolver in a self defense situation. When you think about it, it fits. In a defensive situation, who cares that your shot is a little low and to left, as long as it hits the offender. I could be way off base though.....

"With a revolver..." Maybe that's where the disconnect originated.

With all his major match wins, that must be what he's talking about.

[Woody Allen]

Without a long quote from Bulldozer, I agree with his assertions.

I call the shot and the dysfunction happens so that the sights appear on target yet the bullet is not where it is supposed to be. What happened? I anticipated, I milked, whatever. The key is it happened so fast, at just the precise moment, that I could not discern why? But it happened. I called the shot, but the hit was not were I called.

How did it feel, grip, trigger press etc, when the dysfunction did not occur. One shot at a time walking up to the target and seeing the hit each time to the point where I was thinking "no question the shot felt good-I called it with the feedback from the target, to not quite sure and then feedback from the target. For me, I would articulate the feeling of good shot as trigger finger felt more most "isolated." For me, I was/am able to isolate that feeling as pulling the trigger toward my right shoulder, not straight back (I think what I thought was straight back, but wasn't straight back given the size of the gun, my finger placement on the trigger etc.). But then again, I have no clue if that was really the issue. However, by doing the process I learned/remembered what a good hit felt like as opposed to what an unsure hit felt like. But before going through the process all the shots felt good. I had to painstakingly isolate it to the point I was able to discern correctly whether the shot was good or not. Where the sights were when the shot broke was not enough.

To me, the "death grip" Ayoob advice is beyond stupid.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Woody Allen

[JThompson]

Here's an idea. pick up the gun, make sure it's empty, pick a spot on the wall, or whatever.... align your sights and pull the trigger keeping the sights aligned until the trigger is pinned. Repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat.... If you can do that, time after time, then you are not milking, jerking, pushing, or any other GD-thing.

When it comes down to it, it really isn't rocket science, no matter how hard we try and make it.

JT

Edited August 14, 2009 by JThompson

[nashvillebill]

Maybe we need a new thread titled "what does calling the shot mean?".

[Woody Allen]

Here's an idea. pick up the gun, make sure it's empty, pick a spot on the wall, or whatever.... align your sights and pull the trigger keeping the sights aligned until the trigger is pinned. Repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat.... If you can do that, time after time, then you are not milking, jerking, pushing, or any other GD-thing.

When it comes down to this, it really isn't rocket science, no matter how hard we try and make it.

JT

Sure. Got out to 25 yards or beyond, and when the shot is not where you called it, ask yourself why. Dryfiring at a spot on the wall has nothing whatsoever with the topic in this thread.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Woody Allen

[JThompson]

Here's an idea. pick up the gun, make sure it's empty, pick a spot on the wall, or whatever.... align your sights and pull the trigger keeping the sights aligned until the trigger is pinned. Repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat.... If you can do that, time after time, then you are not milking, jerking, pushing, or any other GD-thing.

When it comes down to this, it really isn't rocket science, no matter how hard we try and make it.

JT

Sure. Got out to 25 yards or beyond, and when the shot is not where you called it, ask yourself why. Dryfiring at a spot on the wall has nothing whatsoever with the topic in this thread.

You don't need to ask yourself anything... because if you really called the shot, it's right where it should be. If it's not, then you never "called" the fkn thing in the first place. What I said has everything to do with any problem you may have getting a shot on target. It doesn't matter what problem you are having... if you can hold that bitch on a spot and pull the trigger through to pin, without upsetting the muzzle, then you are golden.

JT

Edited August 14, 2009 by JThompson

[Woody Allen]

Here's an idea. pick up the gun, make sure it's empty, pick a spot on the wall, or whatever.... align your sights and pull the trigger keeping the sights aligned until the trigger is pinned. Repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat.... If you can do that, time after time, then you are not milking, jerking, pushing, or any other GD-thing.

When it comes down to this, it really isn't rocket science, no matter how hard we try and make it.

JT

Sure. Got out to 25 yards or beyond, and when the shot is not where you called it, ask yourself why. Dryfiring at a spot on the wall has nothing whatsoever with the topic in this thread.

You don't need to ask yourself anything... because if you really called the shot, it's right where it should be. If it's not, then you never "called" the fkn thing in the first place. What I said has everything to do with any problem you may have getting a shot on target. It doesn't matter what problem you are having... if you can hold that bitch on a spot and pull the trigger through to pin, without upsetting the muzzle, then you are golden.

JT

Good advice. That's all one will every need to know about shooting. Thank you.

[Singlestack]

I sense a bit of sarcasm there Woody but he is right. If the shot does not go where you think it should have, you did not call it.

[Sam]

The original question: "What does milking the grip mean?" One possible answer along with the many good ones offered here would be this.

Milking the grip means failing to isolate the movement of the trigger finger whilst firing the shot. This failure to isolate the movement of the trigger finger imparts unwanted movement into the sight alignment the moment before the shot breaks.

To the untrained mind, the mis-alignment of the sights (which diagnoses the problem) is not detected since it occurs just before the sights lift. The untrained mind has already "signed off" on observing the sight alignment because it knows that the sights will soon "jump" anyway, and fails to stay focused on what they eyes are seeing at the moment. (lack of attention)

Yes, the eyes do see the sights move off the intended aiming point, but the mind had already jumped ahead the the next big thing, seeing the sights lift, so it ignores what it sees.

[kar45]

I sense a bit of sarcasm there Woody but he is right. If the shot does not go where you think it should have, you did not call it.

S'Stack, would you guys say that milking is a subtle form of a flinch, an involuntary movement to the left at the instant the gun fires? Thanks, Kirby

[Singlestack]

I sense a bit of sarcasm there Woody but he is right. If the shot does not go where you think it should have, you did not call it.

S'Stack, would you guys say that milking is a subtle form of a flinch, an involuntary movement to the left at the instant the gun fires? Thanks, Kirby

It could be.

It could be that you are trying to fire instead of letting it fire. Thats why dry fire works. If you try to pull the trigger when everything looks just right instead of letting the break suprise you, you will pull the shot most of the time.

[GrumpyOne]

I sense a bit of sarcasm there Woody but he is right. If the shot does not go where you think it should have, you did not call it.

S'Stack, would you guys say that milking is a subtle form of a flinch, an involuntary movement to the left at the instant the gun fires? Thanks, Kirby

It could be.

It could be that you are trying to fire instead of letting it fire. Thats why dry fire works. If you try to pull the trigger when everything looks just right instead of letting the break suprise you, you will pull the shot most of the time.

You know, that's pretty much what I said back in post 20 of this thread and I quote It's like watching a new shooter try and anticipate the recoil. Let the gun suprise you when it fires, you just focus on the sights.) But, who listens to a poster when they only have 132 posts on the forum....

[Singlestack]

Now don't go getting all grumpy on us now

It is a hard concept to get across in type. Hell, its a hard concept to get across in person.

[GrumpyOne]

Now don't go getting all grumpy on us now

It is a hard concept to get across in type. Hell, its a hard concept to get across in person.

It is a difficult concept to get across, just look at all of Gman's post on the subject in this thread. But, what it boils down to, no matter what it's called, IF YOU KEEP THE SIGHTS ALIGNED ON THE TARGET, then you hit where you aim. And the only time I get really grumpy is when i have to repeat myself!

[Singlestack]

Now don't go getting all grumpy on us now

It is a hard concept to get across in type. Hell, its a hard concept to get across in person.

It is a difficult concept to get across, just look at all of Gman's post on the subject in this thread. But, what it boils down to, no matter what it's called, IF YOU KEEP THE SIGHTS ALIGNED ON THE TARGET, then you hit where you aim. And the only time I get really grumpy is when i have to repeat myself!

Huh?

[GrumpyOne]

Maybe this will help. I found this while surfing the forums a few minutes ago. Forget that the kid is really young to be shooting, but watch his reloads. His pistol won't lock back when it's empty, so he dry fires it, pushing it down and tothe left. Do you think he is milking the grip? http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=092_1250278730

edit to add the link

Edited August 14, 2009 by GrumpyOne

[Sam]

It could be that you are trying to fire instead of letting it fire. Thats why dry fire works. If you try to pull the trigger when everything looks just right instead of letting the break suprise you, you will pull the shot most of the time.

-singlestack

For me, this is a completely true statement. And the truth is much easier to detect at 100 yards than it is at 20.

-Sam

[G-ManBart]

It could be that you are trying to fire instead of letting it fire. Thats why dry fire works. If you try to pull the trigger when everything looks just right instead of letting the break suprise you, you will pull the shot most of the time.

-singlestack

For me, this is a completely true statement. And the truth is much easier to detect at 100 yards than it is at 20.

-Sam

Absolutely. That was what I was talking about when people try to "pickle" or "snatch" the shot. They start pressing the trigger as they're lining up on the target, stop the press (or slow significantly) and wait for the sights to be absolutely perfect and when they are they rapidly accelerate the press from a dead stop (or close to it). That rapid acceleration is what causes the grip tension change that disturbs the sight alignment.

[socman777]

My challenge is that I'm not clear on what exactly is causing the milking (or maybe jerky trigger movement). I know that it only takes the front site to dip a fraction for a shot to drop at 20 yds. Sometimes I get consistent groups where I want and sometimes I get outliers that are low. And I'll be honest- sometimes I don't notice the sights dropping either.

This quote pretty much sums up the problem for so many. And will all due respect to dear "all ya gotta do is keep your sights on the target" Bulldozer, I'm gonna leave this one to Brian:

Enos:

"...awareness in shooting is an opening up of your mind to accept and observe the things that are happening while you are shooting - at the instant they are happening".

I couldn't agree more and that has been my point in my previous comments (above) on this matter. Before you go running off solving an inadequately understood problem you must become fully aware of it - while it is happening! In the case of milking this may involve some sympathetic tightening of the fingers of either hand, but more likely those of your shooting hand.

It is essential that - before you rush to perform the laundry list of "solutions" - that you fully understand and become aware of exactly what it is you are doing, and this is key: while it is happening. If the only proof of your milking is noting - after the fact - that your shots are low and left, then you really don't have a clue.

Any solutions that you apply cannot possibly solve a condition of which you are unaware in real time, and that you really don't understand. What the solutions can do - at best - is to compensate or cover up your presumed milking by some measure of force. A great example is Ayoob's well known advice regarding milking. He feels that the sympathetic response of the other shooting hand fingers is unavoidable. Accordingly, he recommends his "crush grip". Does this solve the milking? No, it merely covers it up and crushes it with a heavier force so the milking fingers can't move.

The other popular myth is that the solution is to "watch your sights", keep em on target. In this "solution" your shooting hand fingers are free to continue milking, the sights either do move (or want to), and you keep bringing them back through the shooting sequence. Or you are unaware of any last moment milking. Again, have you solved the milking? No, this time you have simply engaged in a series of mini-corrections during the shot.

The problem with all the many "solutions" ususally suggested is that none of them directly focus on the milking itself. Think about it - if you can become aware of your milking, exactly what it is and how it feels to you, while you are doing it - can you understand how valuable that awareness can be? It's much easier to stop something that you fully understand and of which you are fully aware. As Brian puts it:

"During the shooting, the inputs from this observation (awareness) are monitored by the shooter's intuition, not by his conscious mind... if you're not careful and your mind does not stay open, you'll stay at that same stagnant point."

You'll simply cover up that of which you are not fully aware - milking. Now let's consider real awareness.

It doesn't take much to become aware of your milking (assuming you really are milking and not something else). Just go to the range and do some nice slow fire. Don't change anything, allow whatever you are doing to simply happen. Draw and align your sights as usual, but as you start your trigger pull change your focus to your fingers of both hands, but especially to those of your shooting hand. If you are like the many who really do milk, you will become shocked to actually notice and feel your fingers tightening "milking" the grip (and ruining your shot)! This will be an eye opening moment. It sure was for me. Why?

Simply because you will become keenly aware of something that you'd been unconsciously doing.

You will actually feel and understand, perhaps for the first time, what milking actually is. You will become keenly aware of it. How aware? Very! To the point that you will be aware of it as it is actually happening! You will be able to call the shot low and left before you actually check the target. You will know - as you do it - that you are in fact, doing it. And then, if you are like me, you will simply stop it.

I, among others, disagree with Ayoob. With focus and awareness, it is entirely possible to relax the shooting hand and separate the trigger finger from the sympathetic response - if not completely, certainly to the point that a normal and relaxed (not crush) grip will predominate. A bunch of focused dry fire will help you tremendously. Once you have full awareness of the "milking" action, it is so much easier to stop it. You soon learn to shoot in a relaxed manner, with the trigger finger reliably separated from the other (relaxed) shooting fingers.

Once aware of it, the milking ceases to exist. Your mind will take care of it. It will not hurt if you also visualize what you want to happen.

In closing, you have a choice. Either you can never really be aware of what you are doing, and throw a series of mind diverting stock "solutions" at your "problem" - or - you can become fully aware of exactly what you are doing as it happens, and simply stop it!

***********

You can't stop milking by changing the cow...

[G-ManBart]

In closing, you have a choice. Either you can never really be aware of what you are doing, and throw a series of mind diverting stock "solutions" at your "problem" - or - you can become fully aware of exactly what you are doing as it happens, and simply stop it!

There's a third choice. Stop screwing around trying to figure out something that you're only going to think you understand, focus on what you actually want to have happen, learn how to make that happen and get beyond the problem entirely, and forever.

Besides, if your theories are right why is it you're still having the problem sometimes? There's a reason why some of the true experts stopped replying to this thread a while ago.

I have never said this here before and almost never say it anywhere else, but I guess there's always a first. With no offense intended: You just ain't gettin' dude. Good luck regardless R,

Edited August 22, 2009 by G-ManBart