Don't Taz ME Bro!

[Sestock]

You just do not resist arrest.

http://cbs4.com/video/?id=40580@wfor.dayport.com

[03k64]

Yeah, I have no sympathy for the guy. Did he expect them to let him go, just because he told them to?

[jhgtyre]

If being really annoying were a crime this guy would deserve the death penalty. I didn't have a good view of them tazing him in that video and am not really sure why they tazed him but the video made it hard to see what was going on once he was down. They should have used a ball gag instead of the tazer. At least that would have shut him up whereas all the tazer did was make him whine more.

-ld

[chuckbradley]

I have some mixed emotion about this. Was he a threat to anybody? Its to a point some people dont think they have a voice and these instances dont help that conception with those individuals.

I didnt hear what he said and maybe he was being really offensive. Still dont see why they couldnt subdue him and carry him out instead of tazing him. Wouldnt be surprised if a case of abuse isnt made out of it.

[steel1212]

I kinda have to agree with Chuck on this one. You have six guards/cops and you can't put his hands behind his back, cuff him and remove him? Annoying yes but he had cops on him at all times and I didn't really see him swing at them or anything.

[kurtm]

Once they threw this here little speach open to public questions and replys it became a public forum. If someone is out of line or abusive, turn off his mic. If he is threatening then arrest him. In this case he wasn't threatening, he wouldn't shut up, but he wasn't threatening. Now we all know you might beat the rap but never the ride, but what they did was WAY OUT OF LINE!! It shouldn't suprise anyone after all the Tazer is the ultimate "compliance device" it works well on kids as young as 9 and women as old as 72, used to be it was hard to justify a good night sticking for being "in contempt of Cop" on any but the hardy and hail, but this little gizmo is the cat,s meow for C.O.C. violations. I guess what I like about this whole deal is how readily we laugh at people who are exercising thier right of Public Forum speaking and then pay the price for a view not accepted by the "norm". I thought we had a first amendment about this stuff, but I like how that is being erroded and cheered while is slowly slips away! KURTM

[Micah]

Should he have resisted arrest? Absolutely not. Had he gone limp but kept his mouth moving, that would not have happened.

Does the video look like the Gestapo ended a different public opinion from being expressed? Absolutely.

I strongly regret watching this video.

[mjbine]

I wish the entire debate video should have been made available. We only see what they want us to see.

[dajarrel]

I understand that this "gentleman" had been particularly abusive in his questioning and kept wanting to ask more and more 'questions". If you notice at the beginning of the video, the security folks had already moved in behind him. Probably wouldn't have been there if the guy hadn't been running his mouth. I don't know, he may have been asking really good questions, but apparently stepped over the line.

As for the tazing, I'm surprised they put up with him as long as they did. Once a security guard or other law enforcement officer puts a hand on you, your best action is to shut up and comply. Whether he was in the right or not, you cannot blatantly disobey the orders of a LEO. There is recourse afterward, but right then you need to comply.

Another thing about the tazer. Every police officer I know that carries a tazer has had a taste of it. The ones I have talked to say they all had to take it for five seconds or so. They say it hurts and makes you compliant, but that's about it.

At the end of the day, basically I think the kids parents didn't teach him enough respect for anyone. A little more discipline at home and he might not have had to take "the ride"

JMHO/FWIW

dj

[cking]

True the student was rambling a little with his three questions. But this was a public forum with a public figure. You have the right in this country to heckle public figures. If that had been press reporters asking those same questions nothing would have been done.

Does an illegal police order have to be followed? They stomped all over his right to assemble.

Do you have the right to non violent protest over an illegal arrest? I think so!

Kerry was attempting to answer his question.

It was classic case of thug cop mentality, how dare you not do what I say.

My bet is that this was a setup and the Kid out smarted the cops! He'll end up all charges dropped, a nice cash settlement, and maybe some morning talk show gigs. Probably free tuition too.

All the cops at UF just got issue the less than lethal devices. So just had to use it you know.

So a college campus, a public forum, a public figure, Let the debate happen. Soon J Leno will get tazed for making jokes about Bush.

[GentlemanJim]

I wish we could have the questions he was asking....The kid Was out of line...I think the response was over the top.

Remember lots of hecklers in previous political events were not treated that way.

Freedom of speech includes being obnoxious.

Jim

[chuckbradley]

Whether he was in the right or not, you cannot blatantly disobey the orders of a LEO.

I have to disagree. If its not a lawful order I dont have to obey.

[JSCHIEFEN]

Watching and reading the entire transcript, IMO, this was a hugh violation of the First Ammendment. Our freedoms have taken

a tremendous hit since 911. JK was willing to answer his question, but that didn't happen. Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin and

most of those fine men and women who have given their lives to protect those freedoms are likely turning over in their graves.

This would include many fine law enforcement personel that I have the worlds respect for. The Bill of Rights must be defended

no matter what your views on a subject are, OR we are no longer a Free People.

[Loves2Shoot]

I have some mixed emotion about this. Was he a threat to anybody? Its to a point some people dont think they have a voice and these instances dont help that conception with those individuals.

I didnt hear what he said and maybe he was being really offensive. Still dont see why they couldnt subdue him and carry him out instead of tazing him. Wouldnt be surprised if a case of abuse isnt made out of it.

From what I've seen it was all a big act and he got exactly what he wanted. He had a friend tape it and asked a stranger to tape it also. He had a websight ready to go to post the videos. I wish the media wouldn't give these guys there 15 minutes.

[big_kahuna]

more info HERE.

Some items to consider:

1. Subject had exceeded the time allotment, and ignored multiple polite requests to terminate his "microphone time"

2. his pals had video and blogs pertaining to this incident posted to the internet within MINUTES

3. He was given ongoing opportunities to comply i.e. be quiet and stop physically thrashing around... yet kept refusing

4. He moved TOWARD Senator Kerry after his initial contact with LEOs

5. LEOs had no real idea whether he had a concealed weapon

6. Subject was increasingly agitated and manifested this physically

7. He was "dry tasered" which is far less damaging than actually getting shot with the prongs

8. It is unclear whether he was fully handcuffed (both wrists) or only partially cuffed (one wrist)... this factor may be a big deal

Did he commit any crime worthy of arrest (i.e. disrupting a public forum)? He clearly had the ability and opportunity... and it sure looked like he had the "intent" to disrupt the forum given his notepad and his ongoing refusal to comply. I think that one will fly. Second is his refusal to comply with reasonable requests from recognized authority (the cops)... sure looks like he resisted.

IMHO... any "reasonable" person would NOT have resisted arrest, especially when give so many opportunities to comply and cooperate. Most/all reasonable people realize that resisting arrest is like begging for an @$$whipping. This looks like a planned incident and a complete setup... for the purpose of manipulating the media, legal system, and to set the stage for the inevitable civil suit that will follow.

I wouldn't have shocked him, and think that doing so was a big error in judgment... but I can't in good conscience crucify the LEOs on the scene from exercising an option that (under most current statutes) appears legal... moreso if he was only partially cuffed.

Like others have said, I regret having watched that video.

[cking]

The three questions were, why did you concede so quickly, were you a member of skull and crossbones, darn can't remember the third. They were all valid question, no insults were included. I believe the Youtube video has the whole thing so you can here the questions. Plus the female cop who started the whole thing.

The worst part is the statement made by Machen the president of UF. Railsplitting the whole time. Take a position Machen.

youtube, liveleak, break.com all have the video. Like 20 minutes after it happen.

Edited September 21, 2007 by cking

[dajarrel]

Whether he was in the right or not, you cannot blatantly disobey the orders of a LEO.

I have to disagree. If its not a lawful order I dont have to obey.

Yes sir, I agree with you 100%. Maybe I should have said you "probably shouldn't" blatantly disobey.... But here is the rub. You have to be willing to pay the price.

There may come a time in this country when I or others are forced to become "lawbreakers" because our constitutional rights have been trashed. At that time we will all have to make the decision to comply or revolt. Whatever the choice, you will have to decide if you are willing to pay the price.

Thanks for disagreeing.

My problem is I don't agree with public a$$holes. There are better ways to get your point across.

FWIW

dj

[GentlemanJim]

I agree it reeks of a set up....I just dont see zapping him when he was on the ground .

I dont really blame the LE folks...I think it was a loose loose situation.

As the knights of old knew...sometimes the Dragon wins.

Jim

PS forgot to add...DONT TAZE ME BRO bumper stickers are already available

Edited September 21, 2007 by GentlemanJim

[chuckbradley]

Whether he was in the right or not, you cannot blatantly disobey the orders of a LEO.

I have to disagree. If its not a lawful order I dont have to obey.

Yes sir, I agree with you 100%. Maybe I should have said you "probably shouldn't" blatantly disobey.... But here is the rub. You have to be willing to pay the price.

There may come a time in this country when I or others are forced to become "lawbreakers" because our constitutional rights have been trashed. At that time we will all have to make the decision to comply or revolt. Whatever the choice, you will have to decide if you are willing to pay the price.

Thanks for disagreeing.

My problem is I don't agree with public a$$holes. There are better ways to get your point across.

FWIW

dj

And I agree that you have to be willing to pay the price, lawful or not. Problem is when we all are not willing to pay that price. At what point do we open our eyes?

If this guy set this up then I say go taze him again. If he was just a citizen holding a political officials feet to the fire then its a sad day.

[outerlimits]

agree w/chuck-leo way out of line. what's really funny here is it was john kerry getting junked.

[J-Ho]

Being free to speak, and speak in whatever fashion you choose, is a precious and powerful right. With this right we also have responsiblity. Open debate about a suject, any subject, should be encouraged and sought out. Notice I say 'debate', not shouting match. Civility when speaking our minds should be our responsibility. There are time when we should not be civil. This was not one of those times. Yes, I think the authorities overstepped their bounds. Yes, I think this guy was way out of line. When some chooses not to be civil when civility is called for, then we should respond in an uncivil manner. Someone should have just kicked him in the balls and told him to shut the f%#k up.

[SA Friday]

dont want to be the judge on this one, but I do know this. During cuffing is the second highest threat time for any cop. The first is domestic disputes. Stop resisting is a pretty easy order to obey regardless of the original cause. Once detainment has been established, everything else can be worked out peacefully. Just don't resist the restraints and theis would not have happened.

I'm also pretty sure that tazers have a set run time also. Can't give him just a 1 second jolt.

[Carlos]

While I was disturbed by the civil rights implications here - I have to confess - seeing an anti-war goofball getting tazed right in front of Kerry made me laugh out loud - if only for the irony alone.

Anyone else see the episode of COPS: "Tazed & Confused" ??

[Airic]

I'm not even sure I know where to start on this...but here we go:

America will armchair quarterback this situation, just as its already being done in this post. Nobody but the police and the administration of that university have the complete story. Everybody sees a 5 min clip. This could have been weeks in the making. When a person like John Kerry shows up at a Q&A forum at a university, its advertised for weeks and takes weeks of planning. The police department most likely had investigations going of possible "problem students" on campus that might make a scene or try to cause a problem at the event. I would not doubt a bit if Detectives/Investigators from the PD already had this guy pegged as someone who was going to show up and try to make a scene. None of us know anything about this kid, he could be the leader of the republican club on campus with a criminal record for assaults for all we know. I'm sure there was some prior intelligence on this person and they were watching for him. As loud and obnoxious as this kid was, I'm sure he was running his mouth about what he planned to do prior to the event.

As I said earlier, this was mostly likely a planned event, coordinated by a group of people on campus at what looks like a stage or auditorium of some type. Most college campuses have a "free speech area" where students can go to protest or exercise their right to free speech. I can pretty much assure you that this wasn't it. If the people who are running the event want someone removed from the building, for pretty much anything within reason, it happens. It's happened many times on my watch, a group plans an event, they bring in a speaker....and if someone comes in and causes problems they get removed. Disorderly Conduct? Disrupting a meeting or procession? You don't have to threaten someone to be doing something wrong. Most people in this country do not know the extent and strictness of the law. Look up the definition of immediate disposition....then look up the real definition of arrest.

As for whether or not they were justified in using the tazer on this guy....think about this. I'm an LEO. I don't get paid to work out and get stronger, but I am held to a standard for fitness. I don't get paid to learn martial arts or any type or CQB on a regular basis. My 16 hours of use of force/defensive tactics a year hardly qualifies me as a UFC fighter. With that being said, I sure as hell don't get paid to fight someone hand to hand or even wrestle around on the ground with them. Have you ever tried to subdue a human being that is flailing around like that guy was? Even with as many officers as they had, its not the easiest thing in the world to do.

"But he was a skinny little 18-20yr old college student....how could they not subdue him?"

I'll tell you what, get licensed, strap on a oh so flexible and forgiving piece of body armor...30lbs of gear and come out on the streets with me one night and try it. In the heat of the moment, in a dynamic situation...lets see how you react. Until you've done that, how can you tell me that those officers were not justified. Unreasonable force would have been tazing him after he was under control and subdued, no longer resisting arrest. At the moment that kid got tazed, he was not under control. The officers stepped up the force level because they needed too so they could control the situation.

Ok, I'm done.

[J-Ho]

I'm not even sure I know where to start on this...but here we go:

America will armchair quarterback this situation, just as its already being done in this post. Nobody but the police and the administration of that university have the complete story. Everybody sees a 5 min clip. This could have been weeks in the making. When a person like John Kerry shows up at a Q&A forum at a university, its advertised for weeks and takes weeks of planning. The police department most likely had investigations going of possible "problem students" on campus that might make a scene or try to cause a problem at the event. I would not doubt a bit if Detectives/Investigators from the PD already had this guy pegged as someone who was going to show up and try to make a scene. None of us know anything about this kid, he could be the leader of the republican club on campus with a criminal record for assaults for all we know. I'm sure there was some prior intelligence on this person and they were watching for him. As loud and obnoxious as this kid was, I'm sure he was running his mouth about what he planned to do prior to the event.

As I said earlier, this was mostly likely a planned event, coordinated by a group of people on campus at what looks like a stage or auditorium of some type. Most college campuses have a "free speech area" where students can go to protest or exercise their right to free speech. I can pretty much assure you that this wasn't it. If the people who are running the event want someone removed from the building, for pretty much anything within reason, it happens. It's happened many times on my watch, a group plans an event, they bring in a speaker....and if someone comes in and causes problems they get removed. Disorderly Conduct? Disrupting a meeting or procession? You don't have to threaten someone to be doing something wrong. Most people in this country do not know the extent and strictness of the law. Look up the definition of immediate disposition....then look up the real definition of arrest.

As for whether or not they were justified in using the tazer on this guy....think about this. I'm an LEO. I don't get paid to work out and get stronger, but I am held to a standard for fitness. I don't get paid to learn martial arts or any type or CQB on a regular basis. My 16 hours of use of force/defensive tactics a year hardly qualifies me as a UFC fighter. With that being said, I sure as hell don't get paid to fight someone hand to hand or even wrestle around on the ground with them. Have you ever tried to subdue a human being that is flailing around like that guy was? Even with as many officers as they had, its not the easiest thing in the world to do.

"But he was a skinny little 18-20yr old college student....how could they not subdue him?"

I'll tell you what, get licensed, strap on a oh so flexible and forgiving piece of body armor...30lbs of gear and come out on the streets with me one night and try it. In the heat of the moment, in a dynamic situation...lets see how you react. Until you've done that, how can you tell me that those officers were not justified. Unreasonable force would have been tazing him after he was under control and subdued, no longer resisting arrest. At the moment that kid got tazed, he was not under control. The officers stepped up the force level because they needed too so they could control the situation.

Ok, I'm done.

I'm not doubting that this was legal, I have questions as to weather or not this was the right thing to do. Yes I know a determined person is hard as hell to hold down without a little 'incentive' to do so. I know disorderly conduct laws can be used to remove a person for this kind of thing. BUT is this right? No offense but being a LEO (a sincere thanks for what you do BTW) you probably have a little bias toward the officers here. should the kid have resisted? No. but at what point does it become acceptable for agents of a government to use painful and (very,very) occaisionaly deadly equipment on someone. For a misdemenor? I'm going to have to say no. I fault this dumbass kid just as much though. From his scream I doubt he was even tased. I just think that there is a time and place for tazers and as much as I enjoyed seeing this little punk get zapped, I think the tazer was going a little far here. I think sometimes law enforcment is a little quick to use force. Like I said earlier This kid should have at least been civil. There was a time when people policed themselves as far as manners were concerned. Once upon a time this kid would have been escorted out by other students, but these days we are all told to avoid conflict at all costs. 'Just let the police handle it, it''s their job.' Bulls#!t! when it comes to being polite in public we should speak up when we see someone being an ass. We should, as a group, get up and take this guy out of the building. I bet he would be a lot more compliant if fellow students lead him out. The presence of a uniform to idiots like this one is fuel to the fire in their little brains. The uniform is a symbol of authority. this punk (whose tuition is probably paid by mommy) is trying anything he can to rebel. What happened to us that we, as the public, can't even tell this guy to shut up and sit down. This should not have even needed the police.