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Accuracy Then Speed, Or Go For It?


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Accuracy then Speed - or Go For It?

Ron Ankeny

Most folks preach to shoot all A's with the expectation that speed will come. I can shoot sure enough shoot all A's, but I am slow and I turn in hit factors that would be expected of a high C or low B class shooter.

If I settle for Alpha/Charlie hits, I pick up a lot of speed and I shoot with the high B and A class boys (and girls) with no problem. I have to be honest when I say that I am to the point where I feel like just hitting the trigger when I see brown around the sight, then move on.

For Brian, Travis, Pat, and all of you other accomplished shooters, should a person coming in to IPSC from another discipline (I am a Master class PPC shooter with a revolver) that can shoot groups continue to shoot all A's and do everything technically correct, or should I work on speed and let the little errors like an occasional no shoot and too darn many D hits work themselves out?

Pat Harrison

You must develop speed, obviously. But work on it in practice. Push yourself, build the † speed and efficiency that will produce quicker times. But when you go to a match you'll want to visually tighten up. Now when you shoot A's, which obviously you are capable of being a ppc shooter, your natural speed will have picked up. Remember too, speed is a by product of doing less, not neccessarily going fast.

Shoot fast in practice,

Shoot A's in matches

P.S. try shooting at a faster pace in PPC. I used to shoot the 7yd stage in about 12-13 seconds all X's (really upset dyed in the wool PPCers, they couldn't figure out how I could be shooting my second string before they had reloaded)

Use what you know and build on it.

Ron Ankeny

Pat:

Thanks for the reply. The reason I asked is because Matt Burkett talks about shooting on the edge in club matches in his book. He more or less says that if you can shoot on the edge without falling on your butt to do it.

When I go for all A's in matches, it seems like I literally get A's (as in the letter A) in the center of the zone. I suppose I need to reach a balance between shooting little groups and going fast with lots of bad hits. I'll go fast in practice and try to look at the front sight once in a while in matches.

Pat Harrison

Just see what you need to see.

kellyn

If you are shooting a small group on the A in the A zone, you're still shooting PPC. Experiment w/ different sight pictures on different targets.

IMHO you ought to shoot a couple of matches w/o even using your sights. Hose away! Do bill drills at 5-7 yards and just focus on speed. Heck, just burn a magazine into the backstop and watch what the pistol does. Just experience speed w/ no accuracy and then go back and build on your PPC experience. You can certainly put together any shot that would be required in IPSC shooting.

Erik Warren

I think what you need to do now is learn how to trade away sight picture for speed. You only need a "perfect" sight picture for those rare 50 yard targets. Everything else requires a less-than-perfect sight picture, all the way down to point-shooting at very close targets.

benos

Ron,

It sounds like your "visual technique bag of tricks" has two items - a perfect site picture, and pointing and blasting, or "brown around the sites." You just have to learn to call your shots while pointing and blasting. We don't do this because we don't look at the sites when shooting this way.

The most important skill is: to know, instantly, when the shot fires, where it went, which is "calling" the shot. We do not have to see a perfect site picture to learn how to do that. We have to learn how to read the sites when they/everything is MOVING.

Generally, I break "shots" into two categories, what I call a "movement" shot, and a "stopped shot." A movement shot means ANYTHING is in motion when the shot breaks - you, the gun, or the target. A stopped shot is self explanatory - even for the briefest instant, everything becomes still.

Of course, most IPSC shots fall into the movement category, so we have to learn how to call our shots when everything is moving. We must train this skill in practice so that it becomes second nature to always know where each shot went, even though we didn't see that perfect site picture. To say all this in a different way: When you fire a shot, the most important thing is to know where it went ñ even though it didn't necessarily go where you intended it to. For example, when a shot breaks on the edge of the A box and you saw perfect SITE ALIGNMENT, which happened to be on the edge of the A box, you know where it went. Or, when a centered SIGHT PICTURE breaks with the front site closed out in the notch to the right, you still know where the shot went. The most important thing is not to shoot into the A box, but to know when the shot fired, where it really went.

When you shoot paper targets in practice, get into the habit of ALWAYS calling your shots. You should be able to score the string in your head BEFORE you look at the targets. It's like watching videotape - your mind should be able to play the stage back in your head.

To break out of the "perfect site picture" mold, which PPC readily imparts: Shoot targets at various distances, slowfire, and intentionally misalign your sights and then see where the shot actually went. This is especially useful on the head box, at around 10 yds. Have some fun with it. Then as your skill improves, incorporate this calling when you shoot at a faster pace. Shoot a Bill Drill at 25 yds and without looking at the target, call all 6 shots in your head, and then go see where they're went. If you can't call all 6 shots with consistency, you're not reading the sites. Everything you need to know can be learned by looking/reading the sites when the shot fires.

Experiment, get creative and have some fun with it - free yourself from the perfect site picture! Unless you need it, of course.

And remember, all you have to do is hit the A box, you don't have to hit the center.

be

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Well, it flys in the face of nearly everyone's idea that I know, but Jack Nicklaus's dad told him to hit it as far as he could then he could become accurate. He has won more golf tournaments than anyone else.

To get the right perspective, what about it Benos, what did you and TGO do when you started.

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TL,

I am definetely with Flex and BE on this one. I tried the go fast, see later approach and it was the worst thing I ever did with my shooting. As far as the golf analogy, you only hit the ball "far" one stroke out of each hole (e.i. a fast draw,) control on all the other strokes is what it is all about. The Burner and TJ have .17-.19 splits, there are lots of other place to go fast in IPSC than just the trigger. Seeing is BEing.

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Brian:

I am glad you revived that old thread. I posed the question back when I was a C class shooter. I took your advice and I now understand what you were talking about. We can not over emphasize the importance of calling the shot. The real key is learning how to read the relationship of the sights to each other and to the target face quickly and with confidence at all reasonable distances and knowing what that relationship is when the front sight lifts. It took me a while to learn that the sights and the center of the A zone don't even need to be in alignment visually in order to get the hit, call the shot, and know where the shot went. Seeing what I needed to see, and calling the shots, made the journey from C class to Limited Master a lot easier than I thought it would be.

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Put away your blow torch, Flex. I have read the Book, and am just posing the question. I did not say that is what I do, rather it is what I did when I started (without the Book BTW). I am more interested in Benos' reply, what did he and TGO do when they first started.

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I had the pleasure to shoot on the Limited Super Squad at the Florida Open and we were one stage away from the Open Super Squad. I watched Grauffel, Tilley, Jarrett, Strader, Brown, and many others shoot the stages and even had a few on video that I could compare with my running of the same stage. The biggest difference between the Pro/GM shooters and the rest of us wanna-bes was how fast they moved and set-up for each position. The shot to shot times and target acquisitions were about the same as an A or M shooter and sometimes slower. They obviously spent the necessary time shooting and eliminated all the time not spent shooting. So what I learned from this is not to rush the shooting part ... rush everything else! Then there is that "shooting on the move" that they do at a totally different level than the rest of us mortals...

Leo

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That's so true. I had similar experiences at 2001 Area 6 and 2002 GA State. Also got a lot on VHS and I'll tell ya, the most depressing part is watching ME go thru the same stages. I watch that now and want to scream at my TV: "What are you doing, Eric? Get to the shooting!!!" :wacko:

I noticed how radically Max, Todd, and Blake will commit to their first step out of a position. As in, falling and catching themselves before (barely) missing having their face hit the dirt. I should've pestered them for advice, since only now, because of this forum and my own experiments, do I know what they were doing.

Whenever its feasable, they put most all of their weight on the foot that's closest to the next position, the foot is often POINTED at that next position. When those guys are done shooting here, they lift the foot that has the weight on it. And start falling. Falling is fast. ;)

When you first start trying this, DRY-FIRE, make sure your top priority is controlling your muzzle direction. I usually pull the gun down, strong-hand only, to belt-level, and turn it sideways (gansta-style) until I'm closer to the next shooting position. There are many shades of "committment" to this move and it can be turned down some if you need to mag change or whatever. The nice part is that unlike "lifting a foot out of the box as you shoot", this way lets you stay in place for make-up shots for as long as you need. Just know that once you lift a foot, you're on your way now, bigtime.

Call your shots!

dvc - eric

What's up, Leo? Going to the Sunshine State Games?

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I remember what I enjoyed most, from my earliest days of shooting, was hitting the target. Whether that target was a piece of wood floating down the river or a bee in the air, hitting was all I cared about. Later, when I began IPSC shooting, hitting was, again, all I cared about. Big surprise.

Many folks begin their shooting career's by shooting IPSC, where, typically, speed is emphasized over accuracy. No one asks what your score was, they ask - "what was your time on that stage?" So it shouldn't be a surprise as to where the problem lies.

Basically, what we have (who we "are") is all we have to work with. So I feel it's pointless to debate whether it's "better" to start out learning how to shoot, or crank bullets all over the place and "eventually the accuracy will come."

Rob's, and many others, temperament's dictated "cranking" from the beginning, but eventually ALL of them learned to shoot (call the shot), which is when they went from good to great. I started out shooting PPC, so I learned to shoot from the beginning, and then learned to crank.

My point is - don't waste your time trying to be something you're not, until you need to. Use your inherent strengths in the beginning, then develop your weak realms into strengths as you see the necessity arise.

It's usually better to see what you actually are or "have," and work within that first, rather than set up some theory about "which way is best."

be

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be, great follow-up...it was deep. Great points made to be "ourselves."

I remember taking martial arts for years when I was younger. While I could do some things well, there were some I could do better. My ability to control how high I kicked was limited, so I did not beat myself up because my kicks were not as high as someone else's. I became more proficient in other areas.

Same with shooting. I build on my strengths and work on my weaknesses, but I don't try to be a BE or a Matt B or even Flex! My personality, build, shooting skills, division, etc are what I have to work with.

I don't rent space in my head to the folks that want to tell me what I "should" do, which always happens to be exactly the way they do it....

When I'm ready, I'll know it....

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I certainly don't want to get a major flame, but I would like to add my 2 cents on the accuracy vs speed issue. I think that titeloop was correct to a degree. I think there is a benefit to practicing at a speed in which you can no longer engage the targets and shoot all A's eveytime. I also play the banjo, and use a practice technique on the banjo and shooting that works for me. When I learn a new song, or when I practice shooting I like to spend a little time shooting/playing as fast as I can. My playing is a little sloppy, and so is my shooting. After shooting/playing at this fast speed, I slow down a bit and am able to play my song faster and cleaner than before. Same with my shooting. Faster, and nore accurate than before. We are talking small degrees here, but real steps forward. I think that one aspect of shooting fast is the ability to think fast. When I practice at my fast mode, everything is almost over the edge, and uncontrolled. I think that my brain gets more comfortable with this fast pace and is able to do thing faster hence when I slow down a bit, I can think faster without the caos involved. I hope this is clear.

Mike

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I've been lurking on this board now for about 2 months without ever posting before. I am a new IPSC shooter , recently received a D classification in limited which really ticks me off because I want to be much better. When I started shooting about 2 months ago I just went for speed, and found that in short order I could get pretty quick. For example: I did a practice el prez in 6.09 within about 2-3 weeks , and more recently (practice) a 4.94 10 down. The problem came in matches where suddenly I was faced with tight targets and no- shoots out at longer ranges and that's where all my illusions about this being easy came to an abrupt end. Since then I've discovered what it is like to actually see my sites in detail, but I still struggle somewhat on the longer stuff. Yesterday , I had a stage with 5 mini-poppers at 25-30yds and 5 more at about 20 yds. . That was painful. I still have a tough time changing from a target focus to a pure site focus / target awareness mode when faced with the clock. When I am able to do it I can hit the far stuff but am more apt to blink or flinch which does not seem to be a problem when just blazing away at close stuff. The crystal clear site focus type shooting ( type 4 ? ) an even type 3 is just so slow for me now that it kills me to use it , but it is also mucho embarrising to unload a whole mag on some damn mini-popper at 30 yds. OK I'm going to practice. You guys take care , I've learned a great deal from everyone on this board and yes I have BE's book and it's great !!

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Old Shooter

I do the same thing. I run it as fast as I am able and then sit down and diagnois what the stage requires and how I can do it better. Works for me, in practice. I tryto shoot 90/90 in any match, 90% A hit at 90% of my speed.

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Yes, good add Old Shooter. It's good to push to the limit, at times.

I remember, when I just bought my first street bike and was considering road racing it, a friend I'd met (at Canyon Lake) was explaining "how to handle yourself" during a crash. I remember thinking - "I not only don't want to crash my nice new motorcycle, but I don't want to get hurt either." I vocalized that, and he said, "Well, you're never going to learn how fast you can go then." I instantly related to that because I'd been competing (shooting) heavily for four years. So I made the commitment to crash. And I did, many times.

be

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Basically, the reason I harp so much on "learning how to shoot" is:

1) Today's COF don't encourage it, so

2) We can shoot fast, but we can't make the occasional difficult shot.

3) Eventually, if you wish to win, you must learn to shoot. (Call shots precisely.)

4) A seldom recognized fact: The more you learn to "read each shot," the faster you will transition to the next target. Meaning you'll shoot faster.

5) Compared to 15 - 20 years ago, the average IPSC shooter of today is horribly incompetent at shooting quickly AND accurately.

6) There is a certain joy, for me, that comes from being able to shoot a firearm as accurately as it would shoot if it were clamped in a bench vise. It' a very centering experience. It's just fun.

:D

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I went out today and did nothing but plate rack drills at 25 and 35 yds. I found that I really had to keep my focus absolutely fixed on my front site , with just an awareness of the target in the backgroud. After shooting this way for awhile I noticed how much smoother my trigger control was and how my eyes were allowing everything to happen with much more precision. My times to draw and clear the plates went down from about 15 seconds at 25 yds to about 9 with no extra shots. It's interesting how your eyes can really force you to use proper technique and make you notice all the bad things you were doing to miss shots like jerking the gun with the trigger or tightning your grip. Now if I can just get those times down to about 4-5 secs. I'll be in business. Hey where do you guys get those cool pictures to put next to your names ?

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1st you log in. Then at the top of the webpage is My Controls. Click that & look on the left side of the page is "Update Avatar". Or is it "Edit Avatar"? Well either way click on that. You can put a "signature" on your posts too, in My Controls.

Just as an add, when I 1st got my racegun, I'd shoot Bill Drills fast at 12 yards & closer, but felt like I needed to "settle" the sight (dot) for each shot at 20-25 yards. The splits were slow: .6 to .8. :(

Eventually I just decided to shoot faster, tape target after every 6 shots, and see if I could get all 6 near the A zone and fast. Experimented with grip and stance & eventually got those long range splits to about .30 seconds and usually 1-2 points down - shots just barely out of the Azone. Still can call each shot, just "notice" a few slipping out of the Azone.

dvc - eric

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Thanks Eric , that worked !

Yeh ,"eventually" I'm sure it will come to me. I agree that you have to push yourself to the point of missing and then back off , then repeat . That seems to be the best way to let your mind get used to going fast. I let myself get too comfortable with poor hits in practice for the sake of speed. Then when I was forced to deal with tough shots in matches , I struggled. It only takes a one miss or single no-shoot to really blow a stage.

Bill

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Brian,

I know you like to shoot accurately. So do I . I find it just as rewarding hitting a small, or far target with a handgun as I do shootin very fast. I am lucky to live in the country as as such have a range here. When I was shooting the Sportsman Team Challange, I built all 8 of the rifle target racks, and have them permently set up. One of my most favorite things to do is shoot the rifle targets with my .22. When I have visitors, they are most intimated when they look at pistol targets our to 90 yards. With the exception of the diamond and star, the 75 yd targets are not exceptionaly difficult, but the 90 yd targets make you do everything correct. And what is really cool are the times that lucky shot hits the diamond at 90 yd.

When I first shot ipsc, there were a number of standard matches that required you to shoot accurately. As years rolled on, and I found that I like to shoot things at far distances, I can say that there may be targets that I don't hit, but there aren't targets that I can't hit. I believe that once you like to shoot accurately, you will never be intimated by a small target.

Mike

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Yea, hitting the "hard" targets is really fun. At the Team Challenge, I always enjoyed shooting the "openers" with my .22 pistol on the Combo event. I shot some okay runs, and some truly great runs over the years. It probably helped that I didn't feel as much pressure on that one, because I knew Tubb could cover me with the rifle if my run was less than spectacular.

But the four-inch squares at 35 yds to finish the Pistol event were another story. It felt as if the weight of the world were riding on your shoulders, let alone the weight of David Tubb.

:o

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Actually, I watched you shoot the Sportsman Team Challenge 2 different times when it was held in Ft Lauderdale Fla. You would think that shooting the 4 inch square targets at 35 yards would be easier than the 4 inch round openers at 45,50, or 60 would be. I remember you shooting one target 3 or 4 times before it fell, that had to psyche you a bit, especially when your other team mates were waiting for you to finish the perfect score. But then you are right, David Tubbs wasn't there to shoot the left overs ..........What an incredible rifle shot....

Mike

PS did you ever take a shot at the 80 yard targets on the combo?

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  • 15 years later...

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