bruce282 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 I was just checking the interim results for Limited, and it appears that Blake Miguez has finished the match, all 18 stages show in the new performance page. Is it possible to shoot through at the Nationals? Thanks, Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Is it possible to shoot through at the Nationals? In some circumstances, it is possible to get a shoot through waiver... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Is it possible to shoot through at the Nationals? In some circumstances, it is possible to get a shoot through waiver... Didn't Blake (or someone else) shoot through at last years nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carinab Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 (edited) Is it possible to shoot through at the Nationals? In some circumstances, it is possible to get a shoot through waiver... Didn't Blake (or someone else) shoot through at last years nationals. He is still in law school and I imagine his college is currently in session..... And..... Stage 18 is being arbitrated I think under the category of "Excessive Penalties." I ran into Amidon on the way out of the parking lot after finishing our stages this morning. This late in the game, I don't think they could get everyone who got tagged to reshoot, so if the arb is in favor of the challenger, the stage may get tossed. Edited September 11, 2007 by carinab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf219 Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 I know this may not be a well taken subject, so I have to ask, why do they allow shoot thru's at the Nationals. I rarely see them if ever at an Area match. Speaking with the utmost respect for those who did shoot thru. How is it an equal advantage to everyone else who may have shot in a down poor such as myself or sloshed through the mud afterwards. I realize they have to shoot 18 stages in a certain time frame. What possible excuse could be used that they need a shoot thru. If something is happening in there life that they cannot take the time off to go to the match, then maybe they really shouldnt be going. Fortunately for me I just happened to have the time available THIS YEAR, to take off. When I say equal advantage I mean trudging through the mud for 30 minutes to reset steel and tape targets is something most of us had to do. The three shoot thru's that ran on our first stage of the day didnt tape or reset steel. I know it can be very demanding to shoot 18 stages in a day, I would think they should still be helping out like anyone else on a squad until its their turn to shoot. Maybe I'm opening up a can of worms with this post. Everyone on our squad put forth a good GROUP effort, Im sure most people like to see EVERYONE on their squad contribute, as its been stated many times in the past this is a voluntary sport. The shooters passing thru on rare occasions at large match's I have noticed they helped reset a stage to get a little time to see where things are. Out of the maybe 6 or 7 shoot thru's I didnt see one contribute to the stage or our squad. A hand shake and a thank you go's a long way. I only heard a couple thank you's as they were trudging off the bay. I had a good match and I'm happy with my results. It was a pleasure to shoot with everyone on our squad and it was disappointing to see that some shoot thrus took significant advantage of this. Thanks H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidball Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 I know this may not be a well taken subject, so I have to ask, why do they allow shoot thru's at the Nationals. This is a valid question. I, my wife and my son had shoot through privileges. The reason was to get my son and myself back to school (I am a teacher) as soon as possible. We wanted to minimize my son's absence and I am very limited on the number of days I can be out of school during the regular school year. By shooting three additional stages on Sunday we were able to depart Tuesday at noon after our reqular session and were back in school (albeit very tired) on Wednesday. Like most privileges, the shoot-through privilege can be abused. We did our best to use the privilege appropriately. As we shot through we had several objectives: 1) use the shoot-through privilege as minimally as possible 2) disrupt the other squads as little as possible (we shot one stage between sessions and on another we were so stealth that when I thanked the squad for shooting through they hadn't realized that we were doing it) 3) do our share of taping and resetting as we shot through 4) express our appreciation to both the inconvenienced squads and the ROs. I think we accomplished all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Heiter Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 Shooting through is a gamble but, like a table game in Vegas, the odds are not in favor of the shooter doing it. It can pay off by maybe not having to shoot in bad weather, not having to work quite as hard on a squad, etc. but it can also be bad. If they hit it on the bad weather day, they could be shooting ALL their stages in the rain where others get a break. Shooting through also means you don't get to watch the rest of a squad shoot a stage so you don't have the chance to time the activators as much, work on your strategy as much, etc. The biggest problem I see is, if you have a bad stage when shooting through, you don't have much time to get it out of your head and get back on your game because you are already headed to your next stage. The better shooter you are, the more of a gamble this seems to be. I watched a shooter at our last state match trying to shoot through. He was in a rush to get started and threw a couple mikes on his first stage. He is an excellent shooter, so having two mikes on a single stage really upset him, and he never got over it. He went into his next stage still frustrated and thinking about those mikes and it went downhill from there. For those that have never done it, either at a local match or a major, I would say that shooting through is a "benefit" about like getting to shoot for free makes working a match "worth it". If those are benefits, count me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmap Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 I would never want a shoot-through at the Nationals if I didn't have to because of timing issues on stages and working out game plans but I completely understand when people need to shoot through. I know David B. and his wife Jane and I can guarantee they would have liked to not shoot-through but they had no choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidball Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 I would never want a shoot-through at the Nationals if I didn't have to because of timing issues on stages and working out game plans but I completely understand when people need to shoot through. I know David B. and his wife Jane and I can guarantee they would have liked to not shoot-through but they had no choice. Yep, absolutely. Jason and John Heiter hit it right. Except for maybe a quirk of fate that allows you to shoot in better weather, etc., shooting-through is a hinderance to good performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 If Blake's shoot-through request was granted because he is in the middle of a semester of law school, that's an absolutely valid reason. Those who haven't done it have no idea how intensive and demanding law school is, particularly for those who put the effort in to do it right. The same could be said of other shooters who are juggling shooting with other types of rigorous educational pursuit. My son and I "shot through" last year at LRP in Barry, which allowed him to only miss one day of school. We shot, taped, set steel, etc. just like everybody else, we simply changed squads at the end of each half-day session and didn't have any afternoons or mornings off. That's the way it is supposed to work. This year I reluctantly left Sam at home because of the school time he would have had to miss, even with a shoot-through option it really wasn't viable. Until the decision is made to move Nats into the summer break, you are going to have to accommodate shoot-throughs if you care about the juniors. And if you want the sport to exist 20 years from now, you better care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 We granted about 6 "shoot-through" requests for various valid reasons: school, competitors that don't shoot on Sunday, death in family, family emergency, etc. I don't think there was any advantage to shooting through, and we carefully evaluate any and all shoot-through requests prior to handing them out. I did let a couple of people from squad 15 finish up with other squads because it was pretty thin after the Ball family left. We don't get too many for a given match--depends on time of year, etc. We especially try to help the junior shooters out--school is more important than going to a shooting match, IMO. And yes, Blake Miguez is in the beginning of a semester of law school. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronhonda Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 (edited) hey hf219, with much respect, stop whining they shot through, big deal. you have bigger things to worry about now, like the LIC this weekend. ronny Edited September 14, 2007 by ronhonda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralChang Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 (edited) Wow, I'm in school and I didn't even think to ask about a shoot through. It was really stressful thinking about missing three days of school that it affected my focus. I know next time. Edited September 14, 2007 by GeneralChang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 Wow, I'm in school and I didn't even think to ask about a shoot through. It was really stressful thinking about missing three days of school that it affected my focus. I know next time. My thinking on this is it can be a little like excuses for Jury Duty... we all think we have a reason to be exempted, or have special consideration. I'm more from the old school of thinking... if you can't do it like everyone else than you should pass. If I'm standing up to my ass in rain and some people come up and blow right in front of me, I'm going to be pissed and that will "affect" my game. So to accommodate a few shooters, how many are put out by it? IMHO I don't think there should be any "special cases" you either have the time, or you don't. Commence JT flame thread here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 Wow, I'm in school and I didn't even think to ask about a shoot through. It was really stressful thinking about missing three days of school that it affected my focus. I know next time. My thinking on this is it can be a little like excuses for Jury Duty... we all think we have a reason to be exempted, or have special consideration. I'm more from the old school of thinking... if you can't do it like everyone else than you should pass. If I'm standing up to my ass in rain and some people come up and blow right in front of me, I'm going to be pissed and that will "affect" my game. So to accommodate a few shooters, how many are put out by it? IMHO I don't think there should be any "special cases" you either have the time, or you don't. Commence JT flame thread here: A few guys shot through while I was on the range. It didn't bother me or anyone else on the squad. Not a big deal at all. If you get pissed off about something this minor I probobly wouldn't want to be on the range with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 I ownder if anyone on the PGA tour would mind if Tiger played all his tournament alone on Thursday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 Well, as usual, this is getting blown out of proportion. AFAIK, nobody "blew past" anybody else while shooting through. They are generally assigned to a squad, and shoot with that squad when it's scheduled to shoot, staying with the squad. Then, they can go shoot other stages, again, with a squad (and this is how many people do it), that has fewer than the normal number of shooters in it. That way, they are constantly squadded up and helping, taking their turn, etc. Occasionally someone will need to get done faster, so they may move from stage to stage, but they are told to help tape and not to be rude about it. I heard no complaints on this score. There are circumstances where a shoot-through or "accelerated squadding" is acceptable, and I've explained it in a previous post. You can now resume your regularly scheduled bickering. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 I think the only time that the shooter gets an advantage from shooting-through is when the weather is good for them and bad for everyone else who shoots the full schedule. As this rarely happens, it would seem to me that it is a dis-advantage most of the time to shoot the match quicker. You feel rushed on every stage, don't get the same opportunity to examine each stage in detail and watch other people shoot it before you do. This year at Nationals the weather played a big part, but it is not usually the case. If the shoot-throughs are awarded very carefully as mentioned earlier then I see no problem with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 I must confess...it is exceptionally disappointing that this thread is taking a turn for the worst over the obsession of "Advantage Gained" via a shoot through. Who won their divisions and class? Did the shoot through competitors slaughter the competition? Please, let us move on from this drift and focus on the finer aspects of the event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 Spot on, Micah. But before we depart this, let me offer a slightly different view on the advantage gained. I was enlisted to work stats at the 2006 Area 6 match, and had to shoot-through in able to get to my PC and get to work. Never again!!! It was a miserable experience for me. I didn't get to spend time with my fellow shooters like I would have wished, I was 'rushed' on every stage to put a plan together, and felt like a turd for bouncing from squad to squad without staying long enough to be a contributing member of the pack. Consequently I shot like crap and did not enjoy the day at all. Now when I see someone who has an urgent need (real or percieved) that forces them to shoot-through, I feel sorry for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandro Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 (edited) I must confess...it is exceptionally disappointing that this thread is taking a turn for the worst over the obsession of "Advantage Gained" via a shoot through.Who won their divisions and class? Did the shoot through competitors slaughter the competition? Please, let us move on from this drift and focus on the finer aspects of the event. I agree. The match was great. The only BS was normal luggage carry fashion, IPSC is freestyle and this is not. Edited September 14, 2007 by Sandro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 I had the same fellow shoot through on two stages I was shooting. He volunteered to shoot first, which we graciously granted as we then got to watch him shoot. in a frog choking rain storm. You could tell that he was not as involved in the stage as he should have been and made mistakes accordingly. Just one person's opinion, but I don't think the guy I saw got any advantage by shooting through. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 Our squad had a shoot through guy shoot one stage with us the next to last day. He was very nice, waited until we were done so as not to interrupt our "order", then shot the stage. Our squad felt it was our responsibility to help him out, tape before him & after, also. We were glad to do it! It didn't take anytime to speak of & obviously he was grateful. He seemed very surprised that we would help him tape when we were all done. He said "I'll get those" but we told him we'd help out. It was a win/win deal except he had a hard time on the stage. Probably due to having to shoot through & hurry to finish. Rushing through a big match is not conducive to shooting well. The only time it is advantageous is if the weather turns bad for the rest of the shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 (edited) I must confess...it is exceptionally disappointing that this thread is taking a turn for the worst over the obsession of "Advantage Gained" via a shoot through.Who won their divisions and class? Did the shoot through competitors slaughter the competition? Please, let us move on from this drift and focus on the finer aspects of the event. Micah, I never said it was an advatage... in fact I thing it likely the opposite. Ben: I spose it doesn't bother you when someone is in the ten items or less with a full cart right? In general people can be like sheep... I'd bet my last dollar that some didn't like it. I'm sorry you feel that way about someone you have never met... To me, this is yet another example of how some people are more equal than others. There... I'm the a_-hole... It's amazing that a tolerent person such as yourself would be moved to make a statement like that. I guess it wasn't correct for me to say how I feel about the situation. I've nevr been a sheep, or PC... I will make every effort to find another squad if we happen to, "be on the same range." Edited September 15, 2007 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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