Gaming within the boundaries of the rule book?!

[chad GUNder]

Everybody is always looking for a way to finish a stage faster than the next guy.

This weekend at a local match, a swinging target's start position left the D zone exposed prior to engaging the activator (Steel Popper). The stage description did not specify that the activator must be engaged prior to engaging the swinging target. The intended manner for the stage to be shot was to shoot 7 poppers, one of them the activator for the swinger, then move to another location where the swinger was visible. (An array of no shoot targets were used to squew your view of the swinger)

I realized that 3 steps from the start position you could drop to one knee and shoot the exposed D zone of the swinger then all 7 poppers. This cut the stage time by 4 to 5 seconds.

There was a despute as to it's legality and nobody could find the answer in the rule book.

No hard cover rules were violated.

Any and all help is appreciated!

[Alan Meek]

Perfectly legal in the current rule book.

Going from my memory the rule is all activators must be activated, does not state they have to actually activate the target before you engage the target.

Incidently this is one of those rules that will bring a lot of discussion.

Was engaging the activated target prior to activation against the rules, no. bit some will argue the intent if the designer and others will argue that the designer should have completely obscured the target prior to activation.

Alan

[chad GUNder]

Perfectly legal in the current rule book.

Going from my memory the rule is all activators must be activated, does not state they have to actually activate the target before you engage the target.

Incidently this is one of those rules that will bring a lot of discussion.

Was engaging the activated target prior to activation against the rules, no. bit some will argue the intent if the designer and others will argue that the designer should have completely obscured the target prior to activation.

Alan

Thanks for the info. The stage designer disappeared for 20 minutes after I shot the stage to find the "True Rulling"!

I must add that the stage designer was my RO and did the right thing by not hittting me with a procedural because he was unable to find an oposing ruling.

Does anybody know where the ruling is in the latest rulebook???

[maineshootah]

Perfectly legal in the current rule book.

Alan

Umm....

What about?

9.9.3

Moving targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism, which initiaties the target movement.

[Alan Meek]

Perfectly legal in the current rule book.

Alan

Umm....

What about?

9.9.3

Moving targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism, which initiaties the target movement.

Does not say when, just that you have to activate the mechanism

[maineshootah]

Perfectly legal in the current rule book.

Alan

Umm....

What about?

9.9.3

Moving targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism, which initiaties the target movement.

Does not say when, just that you have to activate the mechanism

If the target is designated as a moving target and does meet the rules of 9.9.1 /.2 /.3

and rule 9.10 does say "initiates the target movement".

Sooo.. if you shoot the target at the static position, and then trip it so it "initiates the target movement", what is the point if it already has been shot?

Edited September 10, 2007 by maineshootah

[wide45]

No shoots stink as vision barriers.

When you do something unexpected like this, it's on you to make sure that your rounds will impact the backstop. I've seen many stages set up so that if some targets were shot from kneeling, after passing through the target, the rounds would go over the berm.

Probably not an issue for poppers, and a cocked swinger, but always check.

Rule 10.4.1 would apply. Sadly, the concept of a legitimate shot is open to interpretation.

[chad GUNder]

Perfectly legal in the current rule book.

Alan

Umm....

What about?

9.9.3

Moving targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism, which initiaties the target movement.

To me... This states my case. The activator was activated.

[chad GUNder]

No shoots stink as vision barriers.

When you do something unexpected like this, it's on you to make sure that your rounds will impact the backstop. I've seen many stages set up so that if some targets were shot from kneeling, after passing through the target, the rounds would go over the berm.

Probably not an issue for poppers, and a cocked swinger, but always check.

Rule 10.4.1 would apply. Sadly, the concept of a legitimate shot is open to interpretation.

The swinger was about 10 inches off the ground.

[maineshootah]

Perfectly legal in the current rule book.

Alan

Umm....

What about?

9.9.3

Moving targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism, which initiaties the target movement.

To me... This states my case. The activator was activated.

Yes, it was activated, however it was engaged as a static (non moving) target and activated after.

If you tripped the activator and the target did not move, you wouldn't shoot it.

You would be given a reshoot due to range equipment failure.

The logic being that the target is designed to be shot "moving".

This is one of those "depends on what the definition of is... is."

[maineshootah]

I do see how the draft rules of 2008 address this..

9.9.3 Moving targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the

mechanism, which initiates the target movement.

9.9.4 Engaging appearing targets prior to activation will incur a procedural penalty per shot fired up to the

maximum number of available hits. (Local matches – see Rule 2.1.8.5.1)

[Crusher]

Congradulations, You have beat the "evil" stage designer. That is one goal of a shooter

I look to RIP poor stage designs to shreds and cause the match crew to "learn" from their mistakes, allthough painful in the end they do become better at design/set up. In this instance the set up they (set up crew) never checked ALL engagement angles of ALL the targets. Doom on them and NO WHERE in the rule book is there " intent of the stage designer clause"

FWIW I have been designing and setting up stages for a few years and still need to tripple check each and every stage, but it's worth it to "cat herd" the competitors.

[Alan Meek]

you have to remenber that other piece, engage targets as they become visible. If it is visible I can shoot it

[Flexmoney]

1.1.5

[Crusher]

I think this may be what Flex is thinking

Freestyle – IPSC matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted

to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and

to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire

must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position

or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions

may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be

constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions or

stances

[Alan Meek]

1.1.5

Flexmoney, "The man of few words"

[chad GUNder]

I think this may be what Flex is thinking

Freestyle – IPSC matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted

to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and

to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire

must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position

or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions

may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be

constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions or

stances

I think Flexmoney agrees with me??? Legal???

[chad GUNder]

I do see how the draft rules of 2008 address this..

9.9.3 Moving targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the

mechanism, which initiates the target movement.

9.9.4 Engaging appearing targets prior to activation will incur a procedural penalty per shot fired up to the

maximum number of available hits. (Local matches – see Rule 2.1.8.5.1)

Looks like USPSA is working to beat the gamer... But not yet! 2008???

[Crusher]

Looks like USPSA is working to beat the gamer... But not yet! 2008???

Let us HOPE NOT, there is allready a "LAZY ASSED STAGE DESIGNER RULE" out there (US1.1.5.1) that was intended on allowing clubs with limited access to props/targets to hold level 1 USPSA matches but often gets abused.

I have little to no sympathy for "sloppy stage design" or the "Intent of the stage designer" if they want it shot within the parameters they intend, build it that way.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Crusher

[XRe]

Actually, 9.9.4 as its in the current revision for 2008 reads:

9.9.4 Level I matches only - If the written stage briefing prohibits the engagement of certain targets prior to

activation, the competitor will incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to operating

the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of available hits (see Rule 2.1.8.5.1).

2.1.8.5 and 2.1.8.5.1:

2.1.8.5 Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to be obscured to the competitor

(during the course of fire) prior to activation.

2.1.8.5.1 Level I matches are encouraged but not required to strictly comply with this

requirement. The written stage briefing may prohibit competitors from engaging certain

target(s) which may be visible prior to activation until the operation of the activating

mechanism has been initiated (see Rule 9.9.4).

[boz1911]

Freestyle baby!

[Flexmoney]

Yes, I agree completely. You were well within the rules to shoot the swinger while it was static. That should be a lesson for your stage designer (don't forget to volunteer to help design and setup stages folks).

We shoot a freestyle game. Exceptions would be for (properly and legally) procedures that are specifically spelled out in the written stage briefing. And, I do mean "specifically". (I don't know if i spelled that right, but i do know an arb was JUST won at the nationals based a procedure not being clearly spelled out in the WSB.)

[Ron Ankeny]

There was a time when I would have shot the swinger while static in a local match. Now I point out the error in stage construction before the first shot is fired and I help the guys fix the problem. If the stage has already been shot by another squad, I shoot the stage as the designer intended, but I offer suggestions for improvement. In our small clubs, there is no future in trashing a stage to prove a point. In fact, such behavior will ultimately damage relationships.

In a match that has consequences that I care about, like a state match...I'll take the two Delta hits to shave 4-5 seconds in a heartbeat.

[chad GUNder]

There was a time when I would have shot the swinger while static in a local match. Now I point out the error in stage construction before the first shot is fired and I help the guys fix the problem. If the stage has already been shot by another squad, I shoot the stage as the designer intended, but I offer suggestions for improvement. In our small clubs, there is no future in trashing a stage to prove a point. In fact, such behavior will ultimately damage relationships.

In a match that has consequences that I care about, like a state match...I'll take the two Delta hits to shave 4-5 seconds in a heartbeat.

Gaming is part of the game and always will be.

But let me be clear about 1 thing. While my fat butt is glued to the couch each night whining about how busy my day was... These atage designers are "Volunteering" their time to give us fun and challenging stuff to shoot. For that they should always be commended... And Gamed

[herky]

I saw the whole affair and must say that very few shooters would have taken the two D hits. The match was the club Production championship and those two D's would hurt. Chad did nothing wrong under the current rules and I don't think the stage design was that bad. Many of us older shooters would have burned up any time saved just getting into and out of the shooting position. His way worked for him shooting Open and he had a great run.