sfinney Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 I'm looking to get a dedicated Production class gun for USPSA. A side benefit would be if it is legal for SSP IDPA (I shoot it occasionally). I know this discussion has been in similar threads, but I'd like to limit it to 3 or 4 guns. ( FYI -I have a Glock 19 that I have played with in this Division some, but I can't seem to get past the trigger and different NPOA compared to a 1911.) My candidates: Glock 34 - not the front runner due to the above G19 reasons. HK USP 9mm - horrible first shot DA, but I like the "feel", but I've always wanted a HK, for some reason Beretta Vertec 9mm - I like the grip feel much better than older model Berettas, and the trigger seems nicer Springfield XD 9mm - I really like the feel of this gun, and the trigger seems much better than a stock Glock.... and the price is right. Not to mention its "new", and I'd be "different" (for now). While legal for IPSC production, is this legal for USPSA Production? I know that it would it move me from SSP to ESP in IDPA because the action has been determined as "single action"... whatever. I'm leaning to the XD for: Ergonomics, Price, availibilty of hicap mags (not needed for Production, but nice to have), and the gee whiz factor. Not to mention Robbie shoots one, they must be cool, right? What are your thoughts? Recommendations? Am I missing something obvious? ( ps - I have considered the Para LDA and decided against it, I want something different than my 1911 fetish has allowed so far). Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 Get the BERETTA! The vertec Elite 1a will be a G model, decocker only, and have a lighter, faster cycling slide than the Elite II. Send that puppy to Ernest Langdon (langdontactical.com), and get the competition level two trigger, and you'll have a 7lb DA, 3lb SA production winnin' machine. I would also get the all black novaks, I just don't like a three dot sight picture. I also like the springfield, but the trigger reset is long, compared to the Beretta. It does fit the hand nicely and shoots well. I've never felt a smoothed HK, but the DA shot is too important for it not to be perfect. SA (Edited by Steve Anderson at 8:41 am on Aug. 22, 2002) (Edited by Steve Anderson at 10:29 am on Aug. 22, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 The CZ75 is a great gun that hasn't made your list. high cap mags for it are available for reasonable prices, the ergonomics of the gun are great, and there are options for DA, SAO, and DAO. -jhgtyre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 Well, it seems like you've already made your choice Just a question: Why narrow it down to just these four completely different guns? Why rule out Sig sauer for instance? I wouldn't go for Glock if you don't like yours now. Over here in Europe people buy Glocks for there capacity. You're shooting USPSA right, not IPSC? So capacity doesn't matter. As long as the mag holds ten, it's fine. Go for the gun that: 1-Is 100% reliable 2-You like the best. It might sound obvious, but pick the gun that you like(By that I mean: the gun you can shoot the best). I can't shoot 1911's very good. That doesn't mean they're not great guns. They're just not that good for me. Try the guns youself. How you handle the gun is what counts. Not what someone else says about a gun. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 Wiil you be switching between different guns? What calibers do you reload for now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted August 22, 2002 Author Share Posted August 22, 2002 I currently shoot and reload for .45, .40, 38 Super, and 9mm.... as well as a few others I'm set up for more 38 Super and 40 loading right now than anything else. I'll be doing more 9mm reloading as I get into production more. I shoot a SV 38 Super open gun primarily, and also have a .40 SV Limited gun. Also a .couple .45 single stacks, and the Glock 19. And a few others.... So yes, I do switch between guns. But 90% of my competition shooting is on 1911 style guns, SV or not. I plan on shooting @ 50% of my IPSC shooting in Production next year, the other half Open. I'm kind burned out on Limited. I narrowed the list to these 4 guns because I didn't want to turn this into a "what I shoot" list, I'm looking for specific feedback on these models. I've shopped/held/researched many guns, for whatever reason ,these made the cut. If I've left off an obviously superior gun I just didn't think of, feel free to chime in however.... But mainly I'm looking for some hard empirical evidence as to which would be THE best choice for Production, and why..... and while endorsements are good, something more than "so n so wins with this type gun" is desired. Hope that clarifies thing, thanks for everyones input! (ps - I have access to a great deal on a used 92FS Beretta, and a used G34.... and XDs are pretty cheap.. so yeah, thats influencing my decision..... I don't want to end up with a $1000 + Production gun, other than some trigger smoothing and maybe sights, I want to run out of the box as much as possible.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 S40, I'd go with the beretta then. If you just do some work on the internals, you can also shoot IPSC with it (in case you want to go to the World Shoot or something). The G34 has a barrel that's too long for IPSC pro. I posted a question some time ago about DA/SA vs. Glock/XD triggers and I still can't decide. They both have pros and cons(just like everything else out there). I'd go with the beretta if the deal is good, especially if you don't like Glock. I know I don't like the USP's very much and I TRIED to like them. I've been an HK fan since I bought my P7M13, which by the way would be my pick for USPSA as the "ultimate" production gun, but it's expensive though. I find the bore axis of the USP just way too high for a polymer gun. It's too light down below to compensate. Plus, like you said, the trigger sucks (can be fixed). Empirical evidence is tricky. All kinds of guns win and lose and everything has positive as well as negative sides. If you can handle crappy triggers and snappy recoil, the USP would be the way to go. If you can't handle the DA to SA shot, go with a Glock, XD or P7. Etc.etc. It all depends on YOUR capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 Since you're already used to shooting a 1911 style why not consider the Para LDA. The trigger is the same shot to shot. They can be tuned down into the sub 2 pound range. Saves learning a new platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 "I don't want to end up with a $1000 + Production gun, other than some trigger smoothing and maybe sights, I want to run out of the box as much as possible.)" Actually in USPSA Production class you don't have the option to seriously trick out the gun. Trigger job, new sights, skateboard on the grip, and that is IT, or so I understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 I am with Chris (and that is why I asked if you'd be switching guns)...the para will give you similar controls and angles. Also, if you are set to load 40...you can easily download it for minor (Production or IDPA) Anything you get will need trigger work...and they all can be shot just fine once the triggers are cleaned up (Glock, Beretta, LDA...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 Pass on the Beretta. They don't deserve your business. They made a self-destructing pistol that may kill or injure its operator and they didn't recall it or otherwise warn buyers, and they won't accept accountability for it. Strange that all your other choices are plastic frames. I was shooting my new G17 yesterday, thinking, damn, I'll never be able to shoot this thing quickly and accurately. I'd much rather shoot an all-steel gun. Eliminate the HK because of its trigger. That leaves you with two similar guns. Do you want to add a match barrel, sights, tungsten guide rod, and other crap? Glock. Do you want the widest assortment of holsters and magazine carriers? Glock. P.S. Notice I read the course description and follow-up note, and I didn't mention LDAs or CZs or any of the other guns which might be better for the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 "Do you want to add a match barrel, sights, tungsten guide rod, and other crap?" You can't do any of that except sights in Production class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 Glock You can get by with adding the tungsten guidrod (I think). It should still keep you under the 2oz. limit for Production. I don't see the need though. I tried one, didn't like it...screwed up my timing. I sold it to a shooter that does like them. No need for a match barrel either. Home-smith trigger job (less than $20, less than $5 on the G34/35) and good sights ($40). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted August 23, 2002 Author Share Posted August 23, 2002 I guess the reason I wasn't looking at the LDA, as much as I like the 1911 style guns, is that I kinda WANT to learn something new, and not just fall back what I've liked so far..... honestly I'm kinda bored with my Bomar sighted, 1911 guns... And as to $1000+ Production guns..... check out the retail price on a newer Beretta Elite, add in pro trigger work, some decent sights, a few mags, and you're there...... Decisions, Decisions....... I just came across a SS Beretta 92FS today at a shop, for $375.. I could still afford to get the trigger job done, and put on better sights later. And mags are every where, and I can get an Uncle Mikes kydex for $17 for it.... Failing that, the XD seems tempting as well..... hmmm. Let me think about it. (ps - FYI, I've shot all of these types guns EXCEPT an XD, so thats kind of making the decison tough as well - any feedback on the XD's shooting characteristics? How big is the trigger reset motion on a Springfield XD? Is it bigger than Glock? Like an LDA?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted August 23, 2002 Author Share Posted August 23, 2002 Quote: from Erik Warren on 5:42 pm on Aug. 22, 2002 Pass on the Beretta. They don't deserve your business. They made a self-destructing pistol that may kill or injure its operator and they didn't recall it or otherwise warn buyers, and they won't accept accountability for it....... ....Strange that all your other choices are plastic frames. I assume you are talking about the slides that would break on the early Beretta 92 / M9s out there? Yeah, that kinda sucked..... And the Beretta has an alloy frame, so I had 1 choice on the list that wasn't a plastic frame. Another reason I didn't consider the Para LDA: I don't like the company, I had some customer service issues that weren't resolved to my satisfaction with them years ago, and swore to stay away from their products. Not to mention I hate mag changing Para mags without a mag well.... its like sticking a square peg in a round hole! Thanks for everyones two cents, it sounds like (as with everything else) this is something I'm just gonna have to go with "feels right" for me...... maybe I should just buy one of each.... yeah right. Back to reality! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario Posted August 23, 2002 Share Posted August 23, 2002 Shooter40 If you want to read some stuff on XD's from people that own them maybe head over to this forum http://www.hs2000talk.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi.. Mario Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted August 23, 2002 Share Posted August 23, 2002 If it's a 92 fs, that front sight is permanent. Vertec or Brigadier slides can be fitted with a different front sight, but the Military insisted on a permanent front sight for the m9/92fs. Rears are no big deal. On the XD, the trigger reset is halfway between the LDA and the Beretta. It feels like a smoother Kahr trigger with a tad less reset than the Kahr. I was very aware of the reset when shooting it fast. I bet the springfield custom shop could fix that... You need to decide whether you want the same OK trigger for each shot, or a heavier first shot and then a light crisp SA pull after that. My E2s are 2.75 lbs SA, 7 lbs DA An OD Green 5" XD would be envy inducing though... SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 23, 2002 Share Posted August 23, 2002 "An OD Green 5" XD would be envy inducing though... " I don't know about envy inducing...but you sure would look tactical at those IDPA matches. That might be worth it right there. (Moneypenny has a green Beretta, btw) (Edited by Flexmoney at 1:36 pm on Aug. 23, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted August 23, 2002 Share Posted August 23, 2002 I'm holding off on the XD until it comes out with a 5in barrel in 9mm. The new vertecs have a beveled magwell and dovetailed sights. The only thing they don't have and the elite II has, and is worth it, is front strap checkering and that's no big deal. You can do a decent trigger job on the gun yourself and save a ton of money. I like Langdon and his work but I'm not big on the speed bump trigger considering the price and I don't think it's nessessary. Wolf trigger spring, a little stoning with trigger slick, and the Langdon competition hammer spring and your ready to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 Gotta disagree on the speed bump, it cuts the reset in half and improves accuracy. If trigger reset is an issue get the speed bump. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 Cut reset in half? The trigger stop is only about 1/16 or so. All other demensions of the trigger are same as stock. (Edited by John Thompson at 10:26 am on Aug. 24, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 I would stay away from the HK. I used to own a USP 45 and it was a great gun and all, but the sights are about 1/2" or better higher than you are used to and the stock trigger is iffy at best. There is only a few people who work on them and parts and mags are very expensive. Don't know anything about Baretta's, except that Ernest Langdon smoke's with one. Someone last did put a plug for the CZ 75. Out of all the choices, I'd say that sounds the best. That or an EAA Witness. Parts are plentiful, mags fairly cheap. There was a guy in Houston, TX who shot an EAA 9mm in Limited (Minor) who just kicked tail with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted August 24, 2002 Author Share Posted August 24, 2002 Quote: from John Thompson on 5:56 pm on Aug. 23, 2002 I'm holding off on the XD until it comes out with a 5in barrel in 9mm. I emailed Springfield Armory concerning the lack of a 5" 9mm in the XD lineup, and they replied that they "have no plans to produce one at this time". Kind of disappointing...... In any case, I have looked again at the CZ type pistols, and forgot how nicely they index, and they are steel. My main objection to the EAA pistols was the 40SW models always broke, but the 9mm ones are pretty solid. SO to add confusion, I guess the CZ 75 is on the list, I can get one of those for @ $350. I'm leaning towards a Beretta, with the XD and CZ now pretty tight behind . I'm going to try to shoot these three this weekend, if possible (if everyone shows up at the match who has one!). I think its going to come down the best deal I find when I actually have the cash in hand at a gunshow next weekend. ps- I have a line on a Beretta Elite II in .40, with nightsights and the Langdon level 2 trigger job, 2 mags for @$600...... any thoughts on using the .40 in Production? (Flexmoney, I know I can download .40, but is it OPTIMAL, or a compromise?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 I shot a .40 minor in several matches with my E2, and did quite well with it. I almost thought I preferred it over the 9, til I did an a/b comparison. The 9 is a little more "I don't know what" at the same power factor. Could be the bore size and the rotational something or other... My load was 3.6 grains straight clays under a 165, and it is a nice soft load. (Warning, extremely obvious statement ahead) The great thing about the 40 is you can use the same gun for lim. 10 if you want... Is it a compromise? Maybe. But you will gain some versatility, though factory ammo is way more, and bullets are a litle pricier. 600 for an LTT E2 is a steal at any caliber. SA One other thought about the Beretta...All this talk about lighter slides on open guns is to lower reciprocating mass. Now, look at the beretta slide. (Erik, we can agree to disagree, right? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 I used to have the Elite II in .40 and didn't like it in down loaded .40. I felt the slide was too slow. Was fine in regular .40. I've been trying to find one(or vertec) in 9mm ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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