Barrettone Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 (edited) Hi All, I have been kicking this around in my head for a little while. Ever since USPSA broke ground on the Single Stack project and combined their efforts with Dick Heine and the Springfield venue, I have been wondering if that is exactly the same kick-start we need to make revolver appealing to a broader market. It seems to me that if we were to try and work WITH ICORE and have a one or two-day add-on venue to the ICORE nationals (IRC) that would serve as our USPSA championship, we might get a considerably better draw. Now the key to this is that it would have to be virtually cost-free for USPSA, as they won't, IMHO give us much, if any $$$ to fund the project. But, with enough match fees, and some creative sponsorship solicitation, I think it could really happen. The potential for cross-over is definitely there if we held it back-to-back with ICORE Nationals. We would run our USPSA targets and try to utilize as many RO's as possible from the preceeding ICORE match (to save on staffing expenses, particularly mobilization). I know that the rulesets are quite similar, so the primary difference would be that we wouldn't have an "open revolver division" or allow 7&8 shooters, so I would expect some fall-off, but I think we could realistically get 50% of the folks from the ICORE Nats to come over and give it a try. I would guess that more than a few of these "revolver enthusiasts" would have a six-shooter sitting in the safe, and would like to dust 'er off and give it a whirl. I think ICORE working in conjuction with USPSA could be a winner. We could even piggyback it off of a regional if that works better for all involved. So what do you think? I would be willing to try and make this happen if you all think it is worth looking into. Lemme know!!! Edited August 25, 2007 by Barrettone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Very interesting idea, Jeff! But I checked "different idea" because I'd like to see a stand-alone USPSA Revolver Nationals, but not necessarily combined with ICORE. Having shot a little ICORE (including this year's IRC) and a lot of USPSA Revo over the past couple years, I think the two disciplines are different enough that it might be best not to try to combine them. But a true stand-alone USPSA Revolver Nationals would be a great thing! Plenty of the big dogs from the other divisions would show up and try their hand. We just need to continue growing the division until the organization sees it as viable, then push the issue, set a venue and do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haras Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 I shoot both games regularly. I'm with Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Too many differences to be a viable option. Power factor, targets, equipment rules. It would be a nightmare for the match venue in changing targets and stage designs. Stop smoking Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 As mentioned above, you would have to allow all the guns that are legal in ICORE, Open, 8 shots etc to make it work. It would be a great match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRodriguez Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 (edited) make it a week long venue. USPSA shoots on monday, tuesday, 1/2 wednesday then awards ceremony. At the end of wednesday NRA-D1 are put up and RO's shoot on Thursday, no need for walk trus and competitors could run the RO's to make things go faster. Friday, saturday and sunday are normal IRC dates. Nice thing about this would be a bigger draw of competiters and for those of use who do like to shoot autos, would get to shoot them a the other nationals Edited August 25, 2007 by JohnRodriguez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Guys - Jeff's talking about *two* matches, each run under the respective organization's rules. I would personally be surprised if most, if not all, ICORE shooters couldn't cobble together a USPSA-legal setup. If they can't divide by six... On a practical note, I'm far too stupid concerning major match logistics to know whether the match would, in fact, be feasible - but it'd be cool! In my area, cross-fertilization between IDPA and USPSA has had positive outcomes for both sports; I think the same would be true in this case with ICORE and USPSA. A BIG negative for me would be if the match were held in CA...and I think that's where they're traditionally held. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 I don't see why back-2-back matches would be a bad idea, however I'm with RevChuck on this: A BIG negative for me would be if the match were held in CA...and I think that's where they're traditionally held. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted August 26, 2007 Author Share Posted August 26, 2007 (edited) Guys - Jeff's talking about *two* matches, each run under the respective organization's rules. I would personally be surprised if most, if not all, ICORE shooters couldn't cobble together a USPSA-legal setup. If they can't divide by six... On a practical note, I'm far too stupid concerning major match logistics to know whether the match would, in fact, be feasible - but it'd be cool! In my area, cross-fertilization between IDPA and USPSA has had positive outcomes for both sports; I think the same would be true in this case with ICORE and USPSA. A BIG negative for me would be if the match were held in CA...and I think that's where they're traditionally held. You are correct...I am talking about TWO MATCHES. We could either shoot the USPSA match before or after the ICORE match. I was really thinking that it would be better to do it with the Central Regional (I ithink it was in the Indiana area this year), as it seems to be pretty central to "most of" the revolver guys (respect to cliff, bubber, etc...). Shooting with the IRC might be dreaming too big for starters. Hope this clarifies!!! Edited August 26, 2007 by Barrettone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 I don't think a combined ICORE and USPSA match would work. USPSA and ICORE have completely different rules, different power factor and the fact that there is some negativity towards bringing the match to California. I would not mind shooting a Revolver only Nationals since I think Robbie, Taran, and a lot of the other shooters who shoot other divisions would make it. Iwould prefer that USPSA and ICORE remain separate so that I could go to two matches in different places. It would also mean that some who would not come to California better able to make it to a Nationals at some other venue. I've RO'ed for the ICORE match in Morro Bay and I've RO'ed at USPSA Level 3 matches and I think it is different enough that it wouldn't work out to try and combine them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 The set up was tried, and I think it went real well, at the Sunflower Classic in Kansas. It was a lot of work for the staff but I believe the shooters had a good time. At least Cliff did at the Sponsers "Booth" . Let's have pskys2 relate what he can... Oh by the way we are still awaiting an article on the "Outlaw ICORE Match" It would also be fun to have a Revo Only Match with an Open Division for heads up finishes only. SCRAP in Duncan did that for a couple of years as a Sectional Match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgsmith Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 Have never shot ICORE but I believe they should be seperate. I say combine SS and revolver into one Nationals since they are the most round compatable, and production and limited ten into another and open and limited into the 3rd venue. It would not cost uspsa any more and I could see a bigger turnout happening for revolvers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted August 26, 2007 Author Share Posted August 26, 2007 (edited) OK...Some of you guys are TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT!!!!! I want TWO ( DEUX, DOS, 2, II........GET IT????) SEPERATE MATCHES HOSTED BACK-TO-BACK!!! Match #1 ICORE TARGETS AND RULES, SAME AS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN...NO CHANGES TO THE WAY THE MATCH HAS EVER BEEN RUN (NADA, ZIP, ZILCH, ZERO). Match #2 USPSA TARGETS AND RULES WHICH WOULD SERVE AS OUR NATIONALS. The advantage being that all the revolver shooters are already at the match to shoot ICORE, so why not shoot both SEPERATE VENUES. Saves the shooters money as 1 trip=TWO GREAT (SEPERATE) MATCHES. Staffing costs are lowered as they are being split by both entities (ICORE AND USPSA) with a single mobilization of these individuals which means a high(er?) level of officiating at a great price!!! In short, it is AFFORDALE TO DO with just match fees and whatever sponsorship we can drum-up (on the USPSA side of things). So PLEASE, throw out the idea that we can't COMBINE the two, BECAUSE THAT IS NOT WHAT I WANT TO DO!!! Sorry for all the "shouting", but I want to be crystal clear about my intent, as it skews the poll results if you don't fully understand the concept. Your Bro' in Revo Jeff Edited August 26, 2007 by Barrettone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelshooter3 Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 Clicked on to read the subject and wanted to see how the poll was going. At this point, I had not voted. Saw where the count was and was informed that I voted? I don't know what was attributed to me but I would have to say no. Enough differences between the two sports that for a Major match, I believe it would be very hard to make it work. For a local match where all you were doing was basically swapping targets, it could be interesting. I would not want to shoot the same COF with just different targets at the Majors. I would want each one to be unique. Completely redoing the COFs who be a logistical nightmare plus the difficult on the ROs. I do like the idea of a stand alone single stack/revolver Nationals but don't known whether you ever get enough participation during regular matches to warrant it being seen as financially feasible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted August 26, 2007 Author Share Posted August 26, 2007 For a local match where all you were doing was basically swapping targets, it could be interesting. I would not want to shoot the same COF with just different targets at the Majors. I would want each one to be unique. Completely redoing the COFs who be a logistical nightmare plus the difficult on the ROs. We just did this very thing with the Targeting Education World Shoot Qualifier in May. 27 stages, all of them unique. Targets relocated, wall sections changed over, and the flow of the COF's revamped so that each stage was a unique challenge. Thanks to Larry Houck, it was all made possible. The key was having 300 target stands and over 60 pieces of steel at the match so everything could be pre-set and color-coded for each change-over (we had 2 change overs). With a good changeover team of 5-6 guys, it is DEFINITELY FEASIBLE...I've seen it done...LIVE. Let's not get into all that right now though...I'm just trying to see if people would attend, and if there are people voting in this poll who didin't fully understand the concept when they voted. Cheers, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwmagnus Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 Yea I get it TWO seperate matches run back to back. I'd love to see it because there isn't as much revolver stuff on the west coast as in the rest of the country. Problem I see is taking that much time off. I think it tough for many to do along with all the other year long matches. The Hogue range is a pretty good one to host the event but it's difficult for those comming from the other coast. Hey I'm all for it but logistically putting them back to back is tough to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 OK...Some of you guys are TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT!!!!! I want TWO ( DEUX, DOS, 2, II........GET IT????) SEPERATE MATCHES HOSTED BACK-TO-BACK!!! I understood exactly what you meant. What I was trying to say in my response is that the art of shooting ICORE and the art of shooting USPSA/IPSC are different enough that I wouldn't really want to shoot two national championship matches back-to-back. Not saying I wouldn't do it, just saying it wouldn't be my preference. Have the IRC. And in a different month, in a different place, have a stand-alone USPSA Revolver Championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwmagnus Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 OK...Some of you guys are TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT!!!!! I want TWO ( DEUX, DOS, 2, II........GET IT????) SEPERATE MATCHES HOSTED BACK-TO-BACK!!! I understood exactly what you meant. What I was trying to say in my response is that the art of shooting ICORE and the art of shooting USPSA/IPSC are different enough that I wouldn't really want to shoot two national championship matches back-to-back. Not saying I wouldn't do it, just saying it wouldn't be my preference. Have the IRC. And in a different month, in a different place, have a stand-alone USPSA Revolver Championship. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted August 26, 2007 Author Share Posted August 26, 2007 (edited) OK...Some of you guys are TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT!!!!! I want TWO ( DEUX, DOS, 2, II........GET IT????) SEPERATE MATCHES HOSTED BACK-TO-BACK!!! I understood exactly what you meant. What I was trying to say in my response is that the art of shooting ICORE and the art of shooting USPSA/IPSC are different enough that I wouldn't really want to shoot two national championship matches back-to-back. Not saying I wouldn't do it, just saying it wouldn't be my preference. Have the IRC. And in a different month, in a different place, have a stand-alone USPSA Revolver Championship. I hear ya Mike. Unfortunately, there just simply isn't the support to have a seperate, stand-alone match without piggy-backing off another venue. We would have to share expenses somehow, as the national office and BoD would NEVER go for it if we needed their support IMO (its a $$$ dontchyaknow). I was trying to find a way to jump-start things and show a massive participation growth at a match like the one I am suggesting, and THEN we would have the necessary leverage to ask for finacnial help once we proved people would shoot it. Kinda sucks, but you have to show them first before they believe. Growth at the nationals (as we are currently doing it) will be significantly slower, and it will take a long time to get 100 people at nationals to show the doubters that the REVOlution is for real. Trust me, I would PREFER just what you are suggesting, but the REALITY is that it is a long way off at this time. I think we need cross-over to make it hapeen, and to do that, you need to make it convenient for the ICORE guys to come play en masse. Edited August 26, 2007 by Barrettone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mscott Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 I'm not really in this since I don't even own a wheel gun yet, but it doesn't sound like the best idea in the world. For one thing it would be a much more expensive week with 2 match fees and extra hotel nights, car rental, etc. I wouldn't see major sponsors being as generous for 2 matches held together as they would for 2 different matches in different locations. I've never shot ICOR or a USPSA Nationals (except SSC), but wouldn't 2 real big matches be too much to shoot back-to-back. It sounds real cool, but if you are having a bad day (gun problems, headache, or whatever) it wouldn't be so fun. The stand alone revolver nationals does sound like a good idea for increasing participation, but it also hints to keeping the revo guys in their own playground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 [thread drift] On my second cup of coffee...I wonder how a combined Revolver/Single Stack Nats would work with re-entries allowed? Of course, those of us who shot it would probably be accused of shooting SS just for a practice run... [/thread drift] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 Let's think a little further about whether a stand-alone USPSA Revolver Nationals would be viable.... This year at a combined Nats we'll have somewhere around 40 shooters, right? But what about all the shooters, particularly the big name guys, who would be there if it weren't for the scheduling conflict with the Limited and Production Nats. You know guys like Leatham (who shot the IRC two years ago) and Jarrett (who says he's shooting it next year) would show up and shoot it. I think the number would easily double--look at how many show up for the IRC just because it's a revolver-only match!--but let's be conservative here and say we'd have 60 wheels for the first year. At $250 apiece, that's $15,000 in entry fees. If USPSA would resist the temptation to get frickin' greedy and try to turn it into a huge profit center, they could run the match for $15,000. The prizes and plaques are all donated. They would have to lease a suitable range somewhere for a couple days (not the whole week, and it doesn't have to be a huge range), and cover the expenses of staff and supplies. I think it's very feasible. And I think it would grow from year to year. Something to think about......the more we keep growing our numbers, the closer we are to having something like this become reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgsmith Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 There were around 250 shooters in SS this year, if you combine the two I could easily see 100 revolver shooters to make up the normal 350 we have now. Then we free up 40 slots for production guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 The set up was tried, and I think it went real well, at the Sunflower Classic in Kansas. It was a lot of work for the staff but I believe the shooters had a good time. At least Cliff did at the Sponsers "Booth" . Let's have pskys2 relate what he can... Oh by the way we are still awaiting an article on the "Outlaw ICORE Match"It would also be fun to have a Revo Only Match with an Open Division for heads up finishes only. SCRAP in Duncan did that for a couple of years as a Sectional Match. The Staff for the KS OUTLAW ICORE MATCH, ME, has retired from active Match Work. I've done burnt myself out again. I promise all to get an article out "After" the Nats. This summer hasn't been a good one. The article for the KS Sectional won't be much. I was trapped on the stages I worked and never even had much time to talk, just scream out orders and commands. As for the do-ability of a dual match. It really wasn't much difference, other than the scoring programs and a few rules. "IF" you have a full staff dedicated to " BOTH" matches it should be no different than say a "Back to Back Limited/Open Nats". The trouble is getting staff that will, or can, commit to both. Making sure it doesn't conflict with another match, weather and location are the other normal problems. If you want a big draw California might be the venue, but the SS draws in Quincy (but it's a single day over 3 day match). As for the competitors, I feel more comfortable practicing for ICORE and trying to speed up to IPSC, but I've been sped up on IPSC for 2+decades. Another thought it might be best to have it combined with something other than the IRC. Maybe at a more Regional type match shooting the same 6 shot Revo would be less of an issue and a bit of a draw. Where as with the IRC most dedicated competitors go with the 8 shots. Interesting idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 Jeff, I voted yes, because I like the idea of shooting ICORE and USPSA in a Match. You have heard all the why it won't work and it is doable if you can overcome some of the biggest challenges. You would not have to piggyback on the IRC but build an USPSA revovler event that could draw some revos out and possible build an ICORE match in an area where none exist. As stated befor the Sunflower did it last year and even the auto guys brought the revo out for an ICORE event the next day. At the IRC the RO's and CRO's are pretty fried after the match, with good reason. Most shoot the Thursday for the classifiers, shoot all the rest of the day for the match and then run us from Friday till Saturday night and work Sund till noon with the shoot off. The big names, Robbie, Jarret, Taran, are not why I shoot the matches. We have our own big names, Carmoney, Cliff, Dan, Bagakis, et al. And beside that I shoot against myself to do the best I can and hope for a good finish. But build it and I'll do my best to get there. Thanx rdd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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