question for the other Gunsmiths here

[hitman]

How did you get started?

As for me, my Grandfather was a machinest, shotgunner, horse trading, gen. all around mechanical, building kind of man.

I broke my BB gun when I was about 8 and he showed me how everything worked and asken if I wanted it fixed, then he handed me a piece of sq. steel stock, a file and said make it round.

Took about a month with his supervision but I did it.

Then he handed it back and said make it square.

Another month and we fixed my BB Gun.

Things just seemed to spiral out of control from there.

[Joe4d]

I am marine engineer by trade, so a decent amount of mechanical, machining and fabricating background. A gunsmith got me started, I took a flawless Browning Hipower Practical in to have Heinie slantpros installed, The sight is made so you widen the front of the dovetail on the slide and then put a little 90 degree cut on back of slide so sight blade and rear of slide all blend into one. Included in the sight package were machine cut drawings, pretty much a no brainer. Front sight just needed to be worked down a little to fit the factory dovetail. Any way after a couple trips after the agreed apon time, and a couple excuses my slide was ready, I was mortified the idiot cut the rear of the dovetail and hung the sight off the rear f the slide, he also recut the front dovetail instead of working the sight down a little, oh he cut it too big then hit dovetail with a centerpunch, as I stood there speechless holding my ruined slide, he said oh let me touch up the finish for ya, and picked up a can of , I kid you not, spray paint and sprayed his cuts, I started buying tools and shop manuals and vowed never to use a gunsmith ever again. I figure noone will put the attention to detail into my gun that I will.

[jjanglin]

I got my start in the military, I worked in the armory under a Warrent Officer you gave me the training on the issue 45.,

he did some work for the Navy pistol team shooters.

I started doing this gunsmithing in the present time cause I started shooting USPSA and saw a lot of problems

and figured I could help out so I got me an FFL and things just kept growing from helping out to dang near a full time

job, Im 63 years old and work more now that Im retired than ever before.

My back ground as a construction mechanic in the SEA BEES gave me the knowledge of mechanics and I studied

engineering in college.Building hot rods, racing motorcycles added to my mechanical base.

I enjoy working on firearms and shooting I started shooting at a very young age, my grandpa and uncles all hunted

for grub on the table ,learned reloading at a very young age also .

I like the shooting as a whole the people are cool and meeting new shooters is a blast, helping is just the right

thing to do I figure.

Jim

SAilors Customs

[CSEMARTIN]

I figure no one will put the attention to detail into my gun that I will.

+1 on that.

[Dave Sample]

I am not a "Gunsmith". I do not ever want to be a Gunsmith. I work on revolvers and 1911's and do not do any work for the public at this time.

I started learning about 1911's by building 12 of them for free for my shooting pals. They bought the parts and I built the guns. I checkered them, fitted match barrels, got in with Caspian Arms, and started building Custom Caspians long before anyone else was doing much of that. I also did a lot of factory gun tweakin', too. All of those guns are still running as far as I know. In all the time I have been doing this, only a very few have been re-sold. I picked the brains of everyone in the business back then and managed to build some pretty nice stuff.

I did not do it for the money because I did too good a job. It was a quest and a hobby, not a way to make a living. I made my living elsewhere. It did support my bad habits like shooting IPSC Matches and Police Pistol Matches. Powder and shot, gun leather and such. I quit IPSC when the hi caps came to pass. Red dot scopes and all that stuff. It just was not my thing. I been there and did that! No Thanks. I liked 1911's for Law Enforcement, so that I where I am at with that.

I know that most of you are gamers, but I think some of you know that the 1911's function the same way, regardless of the pretty dress they are wearing.

I think being a "gunsmith" is about the poorest way to make a buck there is. No offense intended, of course, because I am sure we will disagree here. It is hard work and you have to be highly skilled with all kinds of big machines! I never wanted to be a machinist. I hire them. They do great work and save me the trouble of trying to take 25 years out of my life to be good at that type of work.

So that is my story. It is a Gypsy Curse..............................

[bountyhunter]

I was wondering how many started gunsmithing because there were so few gunsmiths around that you had to wait six months for anything and had to pay through the nose...

[Joe4d]

I used to wonder about the wait and prices also, till I bought a Caspian frame a Kuhnhasen manual and a got a Brownell's Catalog. Suddenly the prices made a hole lot more since and most comercial reputable smiths prices are bargain compared to what I would charge you.............

"Good gunsmithing isnt cheap and cheap gunsmithing isnt good" DR Middlebrook.

[Sandormen]

I am not an educated machinist or gunsmith at all, but after getting an uncentered barrel for my .22, from the gunstore/gunsmith, I thought, this is bad. When the store/smith had to maintain a couple of other guns, they managed to rounding a sear on one, and grinding away the chamber-support of another one, I thought. That's it!

After that, I figured out that I couldn't do worse, and now I do everything myself. -As long as I don't have to use a lathe etc. -Since I don't have any machines but a dremel.

Guns are pretty easy to work on. -Although, I do get warm, when starting to file and cut pieces off a gun (my guns), to modify it. After all, they do cost time and money, if I manage to sc*** things up. Haven't done it yet, though!

I would like to have my own machine-shop in a basement, and build me a gun from scratch, but Denmark is hopeless to be able to achieve something like that. Over here, You are only allowed to have two guns (pistols/revolvers) of the same caliber. So I'll stick to modding.

[GentlemanJim]

Well I dont consider myself a gunsmith...to me a real smith has much greater skill and knowledge than I.

The very first guns I built from scratch were percussion pistols (black powder only).

Built from hex bar stock and bored on a lathe...all lock parts copied from pictures.

That was junior high 8th grade

I built an M-10 9mm from scratch from stainless all except bolt and barrel....and jeweled every part

I have built several 50BMG rifles and one pistol from scratch but used walther barrel blanks and madi griffin cast stocks.

Too many AR15s built from parts to count same goes for 1911 pistols.

Have built Hk91s from parts and reciever kits...same for FNs...couple semi auto sten guns.

Barreled a few mauser actions into sporting rifles.

built a 1919 browning belt fed from parts and a semi auto sideplate.

I am not realy a smith...Im a fabricator I build hotrods frame up from scratch..I love to restore old things

My shop has 4 lathes 1 milling machine several large drill presses a plasma cutter bandsaw mig arc and acetelene welders hydraulic presses pipe benders

Every hand tool and air tool known to man.

With that stuff and a little time...you can build about anything you may want or need.

But I am not a gunsmith..I just like to play

Jim

[Radical Precision Designs]

One question to answer first for the "Other Gusnmiths Here, is what makes you a Gunsmith, or what is the criteria by which you may be addressed/called as a "Gunsmith".

The answer is not as simple as "DUH?"

It is true that some of our better known Gunsmiths and Pistolsmiths or "Armorers", never attended a formal Gunsmithing School, but actually have been "Instructors" at these same Schools. Some as myself had training as Mechanical Engineers and ample training as tool & die makers/machinists, and then some "jail time" as apprentices to established Master Gunsmiths. Heck, I abused some apprentices myself (heh, heh!). Notwithstanding this, today there are quite a few great Gunsmithing Schools over the Country. It would be a good thing for aspiring Gunsmith to attend classes there before calling yourself a Gunsmith, as you will have a Diploma that will hail and recognize you as a "true" Gunsmith. Formal, recognized training is definetely a plus, whether accredited by a State Education Board, or as seminars or apprenticeships by experienced, established "Master Gunsmiths".

Many people who can read, will go over a few owner manuals etc. and since they are mechanically adept, suddenly will hang over a slate over their window that says "Gunsmith" and put in a cash register by the door. The truth is that anybody that owns a firearm and enjoys the sport should be able to take apart and put back together their firearm of choice, and be aware of its inner workings and replacing their lock-works. Some manufacturers will supply you with ready-fit parts to install in your favorite blaster, but being able to install them and make sure they work properly does not qualify you as a "Gunsmith", just as an educated, responsible owner.

There have been some good businessmen, savvy people who knew $--t about firearms, but decided to purchase and ongoing established firearms/gunsmith business. They banked on the previous owner's reputation and knowledge, and usurped it into their own, suddenly touting themselves as "top" gunsmiths. ???? They said to themselves: "how difficult can it be ...??" Would you call them Gunsmiths ??? These are the establishments with the "House Gunsmith" that ruined many guns, probably yours.

Some Schools (especially correspondence schools) will have what they call a "Gun Pro" course, which prepares you for general basic knowledge and handling of firearms, mostly meant for sales people or concerned owners. But taking those courses does not make you a Gunsmith.

It is a big responsibility and honor when somehow you achieve the position where others pay you homage by calling you a Gunsmith or Armorer. Whether you have a Diploma on the wall, or did your learning the hard way under a "Master Gunsmith's" knuckles, is not that relevant. Being self taught hopefully did not mean massacreing your friends or your own guns to learn from your mistakes. Ouch !!!

In any case do yourself honor and do not discredit the trade/profession by hailing yourself as a Gunsmith if you are not ready to deliver what the name/title implies. If you can not deliver as promised you will regret it. Otherwise, yes, we can use some more good people join the ranks. Thank you all, and try not to flame me too much for this post.

[hitman]

Wish there was an icon that said WTF.

Thought it was a simple question, guess I will have to elaborate.

If you have a shop, get paid to fix or build firearms for other people, what started you down this apparently self rightous / self pity road.

Yes Dave there are days where it is a poor way to make a buck but when someone brings in their grandfathers shotgun that they broke, left in a damp basment for 3 years and I can hand it back to them after fabricating a part or parts that are no longer avalable and make it look like new, except for the deer notiches in the stock I for one feel a sence of acomplishment and pride in my craft.

Jim that is sweet, I was blessed with an understanding High school that had a killer metal shop, built a Colt pattern 36 cal cap and ball from steel and brass I poured myself, still have it and always will.

[gino_aki]

I used to have an FFL and applied as a Gunsmith and actually used to fix guns for people. But as Venri defines Gunsmith, I wasn't. I was and still am a gun mechanic. I can take 'em apart, put 'em back together, mount your scope, troubleshoot it if it don't work...build you a 1911 pattern pistol that will look about half decent. Had to give up official status when they wouldn't license you outa your house anymore. Still learning about proper machining techniques.

Got started because there wasn't anybody who could do even gun mechanic-ing up in Volcano on the Big Island. Or even in Hilo at that time. About 1980 or so. Don't believe I ever really made any money on any job, lucky to break even. But, yeah, hitman, the look on a customer's face when you handed back their rifle that their Dad gave them and it actually works and looks good again....

[benny hill]

Got into the retail business in 1976. Of course I had to try to fix everything. After graduating from the school of hard knocks, I started shooting uspsa in 1986. Built my own guns with common sense & logic which goes a LONG way in gunsmithing.1992 findes me at area 4 shooting my para open gun & it was about the only one that ran good. Sitting beside me was virgil tripp & he asked me to come to austin, tx. & build STI's with him. The first year was a build them, cut them up & see what makes the STI with bull barrel work. When you have a endless supply of frames , slides, etc. to screw up experminting on you learn all about what it takes to make it run. Built about 3,000 guns while there, back then I built the entire gun from start to finish unlike now that has 6 people doing each step. Each year I get about 2-3 customers to come in & build their own guns. Call if you are interested in the program. Same for the benelli's , AR-15's & sniper rifles I build now.

[Aircooled6racer]

Benny; I may take you up on your school. I want to build a 6" Fat Free in 40. I can do the machining here and the fitting there. I have some ideas for the slide cuts as well. I'll come by one of these days. Thanks, Eric

[tightloop]

I have to say that Benny makes a great offer...there will surely be some to take him up on that one..

I am not a 'smith, but I do support several...

It takes great skill, patience, appitude, and lots of general and specific knowledge to be a real smith...I appreciate anyone who can really do quality work...it is worth what they think it is worth...perhaps lots more..

Thanks to all who really are smiths...you guys are the best.

[Radical Precision Designs]

I have to say that Benny makes a great offer...there will surely be some to take him up on that one..I am not a 'smith, but I do support several...

It takes great skill, patience, appitude, and lots of general and specific knowledge to be a real smith...I appreciate anyone who can really do quality work...it is worth what they think it is worth...perhaps lots more..

Thanks to all who really are smiths...you guys are the best.

Just like most trades it takes a lot of long hours of application to become a Professional that other people can look up to. Especially in a Sport as ours where most participants are very well versed in the nitty gritty of what makes our toys go.

It brings tears to my eyes and drool at the side of my mouth when someone like Benny Hill freely offers to take in interested parties to teach. Especially with his hectic schedule. This is where the real learning starts. It is always nice to put in the time to go to one of the trade Schools, but these schools will only get you started with basic knowledge. Securing someone like Benny to tutor you in specific tasks is priceless.

My own beginnings included attending Mechanical Engineering School, and while there taking various courses in tool and die making. During that time I took a "correspondence" course in gunsmithing, and they even gave me a "Diploma" proclaiming me as a Gunsmith. I was young and a dreamer, willing to learn and explore. Of course I will never admit to having ruined a part, even though I had to "re-design a few" after going a little bit too far. But then in the early '70's I had the great luck of opening a Sporting Goods Store in Englewood New Jersey, where I also sold firearms. People would bring in repairs, some of which I did not feel qualified to do, in spite of my "Gunsmith Certificate" in the wall. Thats when in a neighboring town I met an "old time Master Gunsmith" Mr. Rohr, who like Benny agreed to take me in and teach me some of his tricks of the trade. Around that time I was really thirsty for knowledge, and I was blessed with meeting another Master Gunsmith, Austin Behlert, who really used to "cuss" at me egging me to get into re-designing everything. Austin was the first true Custom Pistolsmith I met, and I wish I had spent more time with him but his shop was a few hours from mine. But just as well, because there I met Carl Mustra who was his shop foreman at the time. After a while I was able to "steal" Carl to come over and work with/for me. Now, talk about the employee teaching the employer. Carl became more of a friend and mentor than an employee and I learned a lot from him, including how to "chop and channel" Browning P-35's (High Power). I would have loved to keep Carl there for ever, but his home was quite a distance from my shop, and especially in the winter time, hard to commute. Around that time Carl was joining the American Pistolsmith Guild, and suggested that I joined too, and offered to sponsor me. I wish I had done so then, because now it is not easy to gain admission, regardless of how good you are. During those days I am glad to have received internship applications from graduates from some of the Gunsmithing Schools (out west), and proud to have tutored some of them to further their careers. Just like some of these great Master Gunsmiths help me further my learning, I was glad to pass it on too. That is why it touches me deeply when Benny Hill is willing to openly share his knowledge and wisdom.

While it indeed is not the highest paying Profession (unless you start manufacturing and peddling parts ) It is indeed as Hitman and others mentioned very rewarding seeing the expression of a customer handling one of your "works of art".

[benny hill]

Hell venry, come on down, we'll build something together, drink some beer & go trout & redfishing in the La Guna Madre, We'll get kurt miller & some of the good old boys & do it up right.

[Dave Sample]

I knew this would be an interesting thread. I started my 1911 build class in 1995 at Yavapai College. It was the first one ever done and it was a huge success. I taught it the first two weeks of summer and the last two weeks. 18 students built very nice 1911's from parts. Including that course, and what I have done over the Internet, I have taught about 150 students to build very hig end Custom Caspians.

I have seen the 1911 work that comes out of the "Gunsmith Schools" at the Shot Show and it is terrible stuff. How they can display it is a mystery to me.

I teach the "Art of the 1911" and they build guns like I do.

I have no interest in gunsmithing or machining. Back then, I liked Patrol Cars!

[Dave Sample]

I want to state one more time that I have a great deal of admiration for gunsmiths. I have some very good friends that are in that business and they are very neat hardworking guys. Just because I do not care for that kind of work does not have any bearing on anything. I used to sling wrenches when I was a kid and fixed my own cars for many years with a shop manual and some good tools. I worked on stack cars when I was a kid and even managed to burn one up on a dirt track. I still have the scars under my chin from that buring gasoline. That is when I decided that I did not belong in NASCAR!

I wanted to build the best 1911's around and I did that. Just call me Mr. Humility.................................

[tightloop]

I want to state one more time that I have a great deal of admiration for gunsmiths. I have some very good friends that are in that business and they are very neat hardworking guys. Just because I do not care for that kind of work does not have any bearing on anything. I used to sling wrenches when I was a kid and fixed my own cars for many years with a shop manual and some good tools. I worked on stack cars when I was a kid and even managed to burn one up on a dirt track. I still have the scars under my chin from that buring gasoline. That is when I decided that I did not belong in NASCAR!

I wanted to build the best 1911's around and I did that. Just call me Mr. Humility.................................

I think Benny already has that title.

If a tree fell in the woods and noone was there to see it, did it really fall?

Edited August 23, 2007 by tightloop

[Bob Hostetter]

I spent most of the mid to late 80's shooting guns built by other people and then discovered that shooting isn't any fun when your gun doesn't work. Since I had spent some time as an armorer in the military I decided I would build my own guns. I took a part time job working for one of the local gunsmiths who had a good rep and supplimented this by destorying several of my own personal guns while trying "newer and better ideas". Finally got the chance to work closely with a couple of major players in the business doing a lot of R&D work and testing. I also worked as an armorer/weapons instructor for my employer for most of a decade. (If you want to learn how to make something work try maintaining 3000 pistols with an unlimited amount of ammo and range time for 8 years). When I retired from my county job I went to work for a major player in the business and built a lot of guns and learned a lot of things.

Then one day after fitting a bunch of parts from well known suppliers that never fit like they were supposed to I started making parts for my own use. It didn't take long to discover that you can make more money making parts then you can building guns. With a lot less headaches. So now I make 1000's of parts every year mostly branded under other peoples name and only build about 10-15 guns a year. I like it a lot better.........

I guess the moral to my story is gunsmithing can be fun but it can be a pain in the a** and very few actually make a good living out of it.

[Radical Precision Designs]

Hell venry, come on down, we'll build something together, drink some beer & go trout & redfishing in the La Guna Madre, We'll get kurt miller & some of the good old boys & do it up right.

Hey, Benny. It took me a while to mull over your offer. Now you got me day-dreaming. Can't even concentrate over my bench.

Can you imagine the "franken-gun" we could come up with? It boggles the mind. But the best part is the "beer and fishing thing". Man, can I ever use some R&R. If we go fishing, we better keep some of that fish, and not throw all of it back. Yum, yum: some blackened redfish with onions over the grill ... By the way Larry, (Ikytx) can come too, he can always cut some bait.

As to finding the time ... that's another issue. Texas ain't that far away from Florida. Maybe one of these coming matches in the future. I'll keep an eye on the calendar, and make sure my old girlfriend from Plainview, Tx. don't find out I'm in town. Thank goodness Texas is such a large State.

Edited August 24, 2007 by Radical Precision Designs

[Dave Sample]

Professional means you do it for money. It does not mean you are any good at it. Another reason I maintain my amateur standing................................

[kygundoc]

How did you get started?

As for me, my Grandfather was a machinest, shotgunner, horse trading, gen. all around mechanical, building kind of man.

I broke my BB gun when I was about 8 and he showed me how everything worked and asken if I wanted it fixed, then he handed me a piece of sq. steel stock, a file and said make it round.

Took about a month with his supervision but I did it.

Then he handed it back and said make it square.

Another month and we fixed my BB Gun.

Things just seemed to spiral out of control from there.

"How did you get started?"

Man all this is doing is making me think of how much time I wasted early in my life. I say wasted because I sure did not make any money building custom guns back when I was doing it almost fulltime. I started shooting at age 9 with my dad and uncle and just always wanted to be a "Gunsmith" I had my Dad drive to every gunsmith shop that was in the Louisville area when I was 12 years old to ask every Gunsmith how to learn to be one. I got nothing out of them except come back when you’re older. (Almost everyone of these old time gunsmiths were short tempered grouchy know it alls and I sure hated to have to learn from one of them) So I read every gun book I could get my hands on. My school library has some of Jack O’Conner’s books and that got me started. I took Drafting in High school and the first place I co-op out to wanted to send me to Tool and die apprenticeship so I said yes. And after 4 years of building and maintaining stamping dies I found a gunsmith that needed an apprentice. He just happened to be an ex Vocational school teacher so he was a very good Gunsmithing teacher as well. He told me after I left to open my own place that I taught him as much about machining as he did me about guns. I started building 1911's when I was in High school and I had to have my Dad buy the frames for me. After I started with my master gunsmith I pretty much took over the handgun repair and customizing side of the shop as he loved shotguns and preferred to work on them. ( I started before power screwdrivers and he had a mobile gunsmith shop that we traveled to most of the State trap shoots around KY so as the apprentice I was the designated recoil pad fitter so I had big forearms from turning screws on recoil pads.) I was working on revolvers and 1911's during this time too so I was always looking for any advantage on trigger pull. In 1982 I was working on a pivoting trigger for leverage. I had it on my own 1911 and it made a 4lb trigger feel like 1lb. longer pull was the disadvantage but it was light feeling. Bullseye shooters always had doubles with my gun so they were scared of it. Ipsc shooters like it but it was not a big seller. I was told someone had it patented later but didn't ever see them at any shoots. I started building and tuning guns for Ken Tap and Bobby Carver (We called him Geno back then) in 1983 and they kept me pretty busy for a few years. I made my own comps from bar stock even after I could by them from Brownells because I like mine better and I made money from labor not parts sales. The gunsmith I worked for started giving me equal billing on the shops business cards listing me as a Master pistol smith on them. I guess because I was bringing in a bit of money from the custom pistol and revolver sales.

Finding a partner and opening my own place before I turned 30 was a goal that I saw realized and it taught me that I can just say no to guns I do not want to work on. When I first started I believed that I had to take every thing that came through the door and fix it. If you are going to be a gunsmith learn when to say no. If you are just starting out you may want to use these "No way you can make them pay" type of guns to learn from. I found it hard to charge what I need to get on some older guns therefore I call them that. Sorry about being so cynical about the art but it was a business. I had employees to pay and a partner who wanted a paycheck. Long story short I got burned out and just started working on guns again a couple of years ago. I only do work on Glocks. Just too many people work on 1911's and they can have them. Let me rephrase that. Everybody works on 1911's. I am a machinist now and that lets me do machine work on the Bridgeport mill I run everyday. Yes I machine on Glocks. I know I sound like I am down on the trade but I am not. I would not trade the knowledge that I have gained for a bigger paycheck now. I know that someday I will be able to make the all this gun know how payoff. Ok here is a tip for the guys that have Gunsmithing businesses. January and February are slow months. Plan ahead and give your good customers dremel tools for Christmas. This work will tide you over till the spring shooting bug bites everyone.

Sorry for the long post but it just hit a nerve and made me remeber back when I just wanted to fix guns. I didn't even care if I got paid to do it then.

[Sandormen]

Ok here is a tip for the guys that have Gunsmithing businesses. January and February are slow months. Plan ahead and give your good customers dremel tools for Christmas. This work will tide you over till the spring shooting bug bites everyone.

Great idea! That way, you will have your friends come over, to have you fixing whatever they managed to mess up!

-Or preferably, perhaps getting more of them into the trade. H*** perhaps, just getting them to actually handle & figure out the gun(s) and their workings!

Sorry for the long post but it just hit a nerve and made me remember back when I just wanted to fix guns. I didn't even care if I got paid to do it then.

I loved to read it! Great story! I wish I knew, at that young age, that fiddling with guns were fun and possible. Then I would surely do it myself. Gun-mechanics/smithing, isn't always about the money, but the joy.

The danger lies in breaking the line between hobby and work. Then it is easy to get burnt out, and the hobby becomes tedious and boring. Like me and computers. (I went down on that path).

As You said. Learning when to say no, is the issue! It is very respectful, actually. Even though the customer mind find it hard to fathom why getting a no-answer, He/she will probably understand it, when the no would be followed with a explanation. Whether it would be a 'I don't know how to', 'I don't dare', or 'Too costly, I would have to buy a CNC for that job alone'.

That is way better, than just avoiding to give them an answer. -As some a**es do.

Here in Denmark, I believe it is close to impossible to become a formal gun-smith these days.

The existing gunsmiths (the proper ones) can be counted on half a hand, they don't make enough, to take anyone in as an apprentice. If the want-to-be-apprentice showed up for free, there would still not be room for apprenticeship.

It would of course be nice to have a certified diploma on the wall, but here in Denmark, the situation calls for knowing someone that knows someone that dare work on the gun in question. -And then you get onto the dark path.

As a non-certified gunsmith, You are not allowed to store another persons gun, nor mess with it (aka. modding/tuning, etc.), and so forth... ...So over here, it is hard to find them. They are very underground, and very few.

-And of course, not all of them are necessarily good at their work either!

I have joined the dark side... ...I get cookies!