686+ Moonclip Conversion

[haras]

I've got a shooter who wants to moonclip a 686+. He had a K frame done by Clark and wasn't happy with the experience. Who do you recommend?

[imashooter2]

Mark Hartshorne at Pinnacle High Performance cut mine. Fast turn around and the workmanship was just great. You only have to send the cylinder.

http://pinnacle-guns.com/

[Jeff686]

I've got a shooter who wants to moonclip a 686+. He had a K frame done by Clark and wasn't happy with the experience. Who do you recommend?

Yea, Clark did my 686. Althought they did the work as advertised, I wasn't too happy with the whole experience (tool marks, plus long wait time). I think that moonclips.com has drawings, and you can take them to any gunsmith.

I thought it would be a fast reload (like 625), but I was wrong. I had lots of problems, and I think only some of them are fixable.

1. moonclip price - ouch real expensive. If you're rich, no worries.

2. moonclip fit - getting brass and moonclips to match is difficult. I've heard that if you buy the right brands of each, they fit well, but it's a pain in the butt. If the fit is too loose, the shells flop around a little, and don't line up right to drop in the cylinder. Sort and measure your brass and moon clips - no worries.

3. Short Colt - using 38 short colt fixes a lot of the 'floppy cartridge' problems, since they are shorter. However, making minor is 'on the edge'. I get a little primer flow sometimes. Watch those pressures! (maybe get the 38 super cylinder).

4. Too much cylinder, not enough hole - the 6 shot moon clips don't easily drop into the cylinder. Round nose bullets help some, but when you 'toss' the clip at the cylinder they don't always drop right in. Champher the cylinder helps too, but not enough. The 625 (.45 cal) are fast, you just throw the clip at the cylinder and go. I'm not sure how quick the .40 revolver is.. but it's probably better. The 686+ is a 7 shot, so the clip might more easily find it's way home.

Edited August 8, 2007 by Jeff686

[Carmoney]

Yeah, I gotta agree with Jeff686. I just never really understand why anybody bothers moonclipping a K- or L-frame for competition. A good 625 or 610 can make major with ease, and is just so much easier to reload quickly.

[revchuck]

Glenn - A 686+, as in a seven-shot? I guess it's for ICORE...

[haras]

Glenn - A 686+, as in a seven-shot? I guess it's for ICORE...

Yeah, it's for ICORE. He's an older dude, also shoots cowboy but not IPSC. He has a 625, shot it last match. I guess he just wants to shoot the 38 Special (age?) or maybe it's the frame size.

[imashooter2]

I use mine in ICORE and on steel. Frankly it was a low cost compromise over an 8 shot. I was all in for the gun, cut, clips and sights for less than the cost of the 8 shot alone.

No, it doesn't load like my 625, but it's faster than speed loaders and has the same positive moon clip extraction. A well worthwhile conversion.

Edited August 8, 2007 by imashooter2

[Carmoney]

I use mine in ICORE and on steel. Frankly it was a low cost compromise over an 8 shot. I was all in for the gun, cut, clips and sights for less than the cost of the 8 shot alone.

OK, I can understand the logic in that.

[fdkay]

Frankly, why would you bust on someone for their choice in firearms. You can buy a used 6 or 7 shot for a very reasonalbe price, not everyone can afford to drop 1000 bucks on a whiz bang eight shot wonder gun and if price is an issue, paying the shipping on a 1000 125 grain bullets is a lot less than 1000 230 grain bullets.

This is the type of attitude that hurts shooting sports, if you can't afford to play with the rich kids, we don't want you.

What is important is that it is safe, they have a good time and they improve their skills. A 6 or 7 shot, loaded with short colts is quite competitive whether you shoot ICORE or USPSA. Most revolver shooters try to shoot more "a"s so shooting minor is a non issue.

[Nemo]

Frankly, why would you bust on someone for their choice in firearms. You can buy a used 6 or 7 shot for a very reasonalbe price, not everyone can afford to drop 1000 bucks on a whiz bang eight shot wonder gun and if price is an issue, paying the shipping on a 1000 125 grain bullets is a lot less than 1000 230 grain bullets.

This is the type of attitude that hurts shooting sports, if you can't afford to play with the rich kids, we don't want you.

What is important is that it is safe, they have a good time and they improve their skills. A 6 or 7 shot, loaded with short colts is quite competitive whether you shoot ICORE or USPSA. Most revolver shooters try to shoot more "a"s so shooting minor is a non issue.

[DougCarden]

fdkay, with all due respect. As you have only 2 posts, I dont think you understand this forum, or what information is given or how it can be presented. This is a competition forum, and the people that post are mostly by and large competitors. When asked a question, they will give opinions based upon their individual experiences. When someone asks a question, I honestly think they expect an answer. As the thread played out, questions were asked and now we know more to where the orignial question was going.

No one is busting on anyone about high dollar guns or anything like that, and I dont know where you found that. If you ask Competitors questions they will give you answers. You may not like the answer, but you will get some answers....

Having said that, I started out shooting ICORE with a 686+ that I won at Second Chance. I had Bob Miles in CA moon it and got the clips from him. I can only use Rem, Fed, or starline brass with the conversion. They load ok, but not as well as the 625. For ICORE that is a great set up and it will give great service. Using Short Colts will only make life easier.

Having said that, there are many times in the past I wish someone would have told me things about the guns like this, as it would have saved me a helluva lot of money.......

Regards,

DougC

[Carmoney]

Hello fdkay, and welcome to the forum! One of the things I like best about shooting revolvers in competition is that you can be quite successful with equipment that is quite inexpensive. I paid $450 for the S&W 625 that I use as my main match gun, and I'm still loading all my ammo on the Square Deal B I bought for $184 back around 1987.

There may be a few of those elitist "rich kid" types around the shooting sports......but I think they're mostly shooting skeet and sporting clays right now!

[fdkay]

Doug,

The original question was for a recommendation for someone to do the conversion, not on whether the conversion was worthwhile doing.

Yes a model 610 or 625 is faster to reload, if you are only trying to make a 120 or 125 PF you don't need a 610 or 625.

There could be many reasons he prefers the 686+, maybe he has arthritis and the recol impulse from the heavy bullets bothers his hand. The gun is lighter, the frame is smaller, the grip is smaller.

One should not have to explain themselves, I can understand if the original question was on whether or not, as competitors you would recommend the 686, but that wasn't the question.

[Tom E]

Since the hread has kind of gone this way. Has anyone tried shooting a moon clipped 6" 66 or 67? Every time I shoot my 6" 617 I wonder about this vs my 625. Tom

[fdkay]

S&W used to make a 5" 686+ with hi-vis type front sight and an "express" style rear sight (look at the picture in post 7). Very fast target acquisition and a nice compromise between the 4" and 6". They do not catalog it any more. I used to shoot a large frame revolver with a 6 inch barrel, by the end of the match I was really slowing down (sometimes a good thing) when I put a 4" barrel on it, fatigue was less of a factor. But this was a large frame, not a k frame. The extra sight radius on a 6" comes in handy, but your draw (depending on holster) and presentation times will be slower.

Edited August 10, 2007 by fdkay

[revchuck]

Since the hread has kind of gone this way. Has anyone tried shooting a moon clipped 6" 66 or 67? Every time I shoot my 6" 617 I wonder about this vs my 625. Tom

Tom - I haven't tried it, but briefly considered clipping my 6" M14. I posted the question here and the consensus was that it didn't work well due to the flimsiness of the clips and the difficulty of matching brass to the clips. I decided against it, and am working with Jetloaders instead - I just like K frames too much.

[Bubber]

On the 686+ moonclipping is the way to go as there are not that many options for speed loaders. A friend has a moonclipped 686 6 shot and they are very case sensitive, and must use the looser brass such as starline. I loaded some RP brass in a moonclip and they will not fit as they are push out by just a smidge. One can "fix" the sloppines by making Speedstix. But then you are fixing a problem that does not have to exist. Speedloader vs Moonclips have been discussed on these forums before. Advantage over a speedloader is the removal of the "disaster factor" (one under the star) and you get ALL your brass back. Advantage over the moon cllip is that the rounds are held rigid and can be placed in the cylinder under force, (Maybe slightly faster) , Smaller investment into shooting. And the "COOL" when you hit that the perfect reload faster than you normally do with moonclips. I like the 686 in USPSA because it does not agrevate my arms as much and I don't know that I could shoot Major 45 any better than I'm shooting minor. Or at least I haven't shot any better yet. We all are trying to help the new revovler shooter to make the learning curve not as steep as when we started to keep them away from making the same mistakes we did and hope these posts reflect this thought.

[haras]

Thanks guys.

Welcome fdkay, hang around a while. These are great folks.

[imashooter2]

A friend has a moonclipped 686 6 shot and they are very case sensitive, and must use the looser brass such as starline. I loaded some RP brass in a moonclip and they will not fit as they are push out by just a smidge.

Interesting. R-P is the brass I use for all my .38 Special reloads. I have used it in Ranch, Hearthco and some unknown Brownell's house brand clips and it has never been too tight. If anything the Ranch clips are too loose.

Do you know what brand clips your friend was using?

[revoman]

I've got a shooter who wants to moonclip a 686+. He had a K frame done by Clark and wasn't happy with the experience. Who do you recommend?

Yea, Clark did my 686. Althought they did the work as advertised, I wasn't too happy with the whole experience (tool marks, plus long wait time). I think that moonclips.com has drawings, and you can take them to any gunsmith.

I thought it would be a fast reload (like 625), but I was wrong. I had lots of problems, and I think only some of them are fixable.

1. moonclip price - ouch real expensive. If you're rich, no worries.

2. moonclip fit - getting brass and moonclips to match is difficult. I've heard that if you buy the right brands of each, they fit well, but it's a pain in the butt. If the fit is too loose, the shells flop around a little, and don't line up right to drop in the cylinder. Sort and measure your brass and moon clips - no worries.

3. Short Colt - using 38 short colt fixes a lot of the 'floppy cartridge' problems, since they are shorter. However, making minor is 'on the edge'. I get a little primer flow sometimes. Watch those pressures! (maybe get the 38 super cylinder).

4. Too much cylinder, not enough hole - the 6 shot moon clips don't easily drop into the cylinder. Round nose bullets help some, but when you 'toss' the clip at the cylinder they don't always drop right in. Champher the cylinder helps too, but not enough. The 625 (.45 cal) are fast, you just throw the clip at the cylinder and go. I'm not sure how quick the .40 revolver is.. but it's probably better. The 686+ is a 7 shot, so the clip might more easily find it's way home.

Try this recipie for the 38 Short Colt, 150 Master Blaster 38 Special sized .357 ( http://www.masterblastersbullets.com ) Moly coated bullet, seated at 1.175 and 2.8 to 2.9 grains of Vihtavuori N310. The 2.8 should give you about 825 fps or 123 power factor and the 2.9 should give you 850 fps or 127 power factor . When I ventured into the 3 to 3.1 grains the extractions started to get a little sticky but no pressure problems with the 2.8 to 2.9 grains. The reason for the long seating is to compensate for the long profile of the bullet.

[cliffwalsh]

Doug,

The original question was for a recommendation for someone to do the conversion, not on whether the conversion was worthwhile doing.

Yes a model 610 or 625 is faster to reload, if you are only trying to make a 120 or 125 PF you don't need a 610 or 625.

There could be many reasons he prefers the 686+, maybe he has arthritis and the recol impulse from the heavy bullets bothers his hand. The gun is lighter, the frame is smaller, the grip is smaller.

One should not have to explain themselves, I can understand if the original question was on whether or not, as competitors you would recommend the 686, but that wasn't the question.

fdkay, , it is polite to attach your name to the post especially when you take exception with another forum member who is using his or her real name.

Cliff Walsh

[David Sinko]

Years ago I had a 25-7 .45 Colt (anybody remember those?) that had been moonclipped and machined deeper to also accept moonclipped .45 ACP. The gunsmith told me he had done a few of these and there were no problems. I had it done mostly to shoot .45 ACP but it did not work out so well. The gun constantly misfired when shooting DA and I had problems with keyholing. I theorized that the sloppy chambers were causing too much cartridge wobble and they cartridges would not reliably absorb the blow of the firing pin. The moonclipped .45 Colt was no picnic either. I have a 66 that I really like and there's no way I'd ever moonclip it. The 686+ would be kind of tempting but I see too many nagging problems with those too. I still say that rimless cartridges were designed for moonclipped revolvers and the whole notion of the semiautomatic pistol was just a whimsical afterthought.

Dave Sinko

[festus1]

Years ago I had a 25-7 .45 Colt (anybody remember those?) that had been moonclipped and machined deeper to also accept moonclipped .45 ACP. The gunsmith told me he had done a few of these and there were no problems. I had it done mostly to shoot .45 ACP but it did not work out so well. The gun constantly misfired when shooting DA and I had problems with keyholing. I theorized that the sloppy chambers were causing too much cartridge wobble and they cartridges would not reliably absorb the blow of the firing pin. The moonclipped .45 Colt was no picnic either. I have a 66 that I really like and there's no way I'd ever moonclip it. The 686+ would be kind of tempting but I see too many nagging problems with those too. I still say that rimless cartridges were designed for moonclipped revolvers and the whole notion of the semiautomatic pistol was just a whimsical afterthought.

Dave Sinko

I have three 7 shot L frames all cut for moon clips. (The L-comp came that way.) I have been shooting them w/ moons for six years now. Two are 3 inchers and the 386 is 2 1/2" so I haven't shot them in competition. I went to an LFI two day course that was over 1200 rounds and got along fine loading moons for the whole thing. The only thing is Remington brass is the only thing I have found that works well, and I use needle nose plyers for each round. Not as fast as a 625 to reload, but for me faster than speed loaders. I have carried 2 moons in a leather cell phone case on my belt for at least the last 3 years most days and I have not bent a clip yet (knock on wood). A friend I shoot with uses a 6 inch 686+ with moons for steel and pins and gets along quite well. That is just my 2 cents worth to balance out the conversation.

On a philosophical note, it would be interesting to shoot a match (icore or steel) with an L frame with speed loaders and then again with moon clips. I think for most folks (me anyway) there would not be too much difference. Except for the neat bag of brass after shooting with moon clips.

Chris