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Alan Meek

Single Stack Division

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The agenda for the upcoming USPSA BOD meeting has the provisional status of Single Stack as an agenda item.

I have already contacted the USPSA President and all ADs outling my support for making Single Stack a fully recognized division as long as it can be done without removing any other existing division.

So if you support making Single Stack division a fully recognized division now is the time to contact the USPSA President and AD's.

Alan

(Let;s not turn this into a Single Stack vs (insert other division here) argument)

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I'm still seeing very weak Single Stack shooter numbers. This does not indicate to me that the PSSD experiment was a success. Unless there are numbers out there that I haven't seen (I looked at last years Area matches and 2007 Area 6 + the SC sectional), I have to wonder about the BOD if they might consider the division a success because it drew roughly 12 - 15 shooters at Area matches. I don't consider the Single Stack "Nationals" to figure in to our shooter numbers since the match had done quite well for more than a decade without USPSA involvement.

I would feel much better about their thought process if they discussed allowing classifiers to count for this division to see if the lack of classifiers is holding this division back.

I have a feeling(guess) the division will get full approval just so it can be included in the new rule book. A poor reason to add a division to the sport.

I've got nothing against the division, especially when not tied to another division, but I would just like to see USPSA run like a real business for a change. No real business would ever think of introducing a new "product" with such low numbers in the "product testing " phase.

So I won't lose any sleep over the SS division, just over the management of USPSA.

I hope there are other factors besides "wishful thinking" that are involved with this topic that I'm not aware of; certainly a possibility.

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JFD

The success of Single Stack nationals is most likely a prelude to the success the new division will enjoy once it has status and shooters can get classifications.

I am amazed that so many look at the success of the SS Nats as a glass half full.

Remember, most all of us have a 1911, it is not like starting a new division like Open where everyone has to "retool" to get started.

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Hello: If I could get classified in single stack I would shoot it. For now it will be Limited then Limted 10 and revolver. I think single stack will end up being one of the largest classes in a couple of years. Just my opinion ;-) Thanks, Eric

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Hello: If I could get classified in single stack I would shoot it. For now it will be Limited then Limted 10 and revolver. I think single stack will end up being one of the largest classes in a couple of years. Just my opinion ;-) Thanks, Eric

I keep seeing comments like this one.

You do understand that if you are classified in Lim, Lim10, Prod, or Rev, you ARE classified in SS. Check your classifaction on the USPSA page, Limited and SS will be the same.

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Being assigned a classification is not earning a classification.

By the very nature of the assigned classification it is not/can not be a true assessment of your capabilities with a SS gun. Stage breakdown and prep is very different from any other division.

IMO. :)

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At the club matches I run, we recognize all divisions and I average 60-65 shooters /match. The best showing we have had with single stack is 5. Now that the SS nationals have been run, malot of those shooters have gone back to production or limited/l-10. There is a small following for the SS division but we are not pulling the Idpa shooters and keeping them with SS. Once they see the game and the rules we compete under, most of them end up in limited/l-10 or production based on what guns they have. I am happy to recognize and run the mattch with SS, but do not see it as a big increase in shooters, Most of the guys just shoot l-10 with their SS.

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Around my neck of the woods you would be lucky if you saw 2 SS competitors, mostly none. We are talking about 50-70 participant matches, btw.

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Hello: All I was saying above is that I would get classified in single stack. Currently I am not classified in any class at all. If they did have single stack classifications I would have done that first. I like the idea of single stack but also all the other classes as well. Thanks, Eric

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Most of the potential SS shooters I have talked to will shoot when the classifiers for SS are used for classification. Limited class classification with a 20 +1 round gun vs an 8 +1 round gun is hardly a fair comparison.

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I don't see where your SS classification would be much different from a limited classification since there is no advantage to having 20 round mags during a classifier. Isn't the majority of what goes toward your classification from shooting classifiers? It's not completely right to issue classifications for the SS division, but it had to start somewhere. Count me as one of the SS shooters right up to the SS Classic and was shooting Limited that following Sunday.

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There is no advantage to having 20 round mags in a classifier....However, There most certainly is an advantage to having 20 round mags in the average USPSA course of fire. If your SS classification is based upon your Limited classification and you buddy's SS classification is based on his revolver classification who do you think is the one who has the advantage? The revolver shooter's classification will be lower than it should be for SS and the Limited shooter's SS classification will be higher than his real capabilities...

Caveat: I damned near failed math in high school and have no training in statistical probabilities ...and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn lately. :)

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OK, let us think about classificatoin. IF you are classified in two divisions, your lowest classification can not be lower than one below your highest. I.E., if you are an A in Limited and you have a 15% level in say, Open, you are stil going to be ranked as a B in Open.

So, If you are an A in limited, you are automatically no lower than a B in SS regardless. So if the current provisonal division rules you an A, so what, no one else is at any more or less a disadvantage.

An M in Revo that has never shot a bottom feeder will still be an M in SS. A 'B' in Open will be a B in SS.

Shoot it if you want. don't if you don't. As Vlad pointed out, we see next to no SS shooters at OB or CJ. And both matches run over 50 shooters a month.

Jim

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I tried to post this question on the USPSA forum but couldn't for some reason, I sent Rob an email about it. In the meantime, maybe somebody here can answer my question.....

If/When SS becomes permanent, will it be limited to only 1911's or will other ss guns be allowed to play? Does "1911 type" mean a 1911 or would any ss, single action be ok?

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Could someone tell me when they are going to bring back SS open class!!! Then i could bring out my 2 port springer 38 super with my scope doctor scope!!!!

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The BOD MUST start pushing the classifiers into the data base. I can believe anybody ever thought a provisional division without a realistic classification system would be a realistic test of the divisions viability.

As an example. I got an new shooter into USPSA this year. He started out shooting SS because that's the gun he had; bought extra mags and leather gear to play. But then, after shooting 8 or 10 classifiers he's wondering when he's going to get classified. That NOT a good way to bring in new shooters. Sure, adopting a classification from another division is fine for existing members, but you cant build membership if you're new marketing division treats the newbies like a red-hedded step child.

Also, WTH is up with collecting the activity fee for SS classifiers and then not providing that key service. That aspect of SS is flat out piracy.

Three years is forever for the newbie waiting for their C card. Also, what's going to happen when some new shooter shoots SS for a couple of years, shows up at a major match and kills A class carrying a U card? Legalized sandbagging.

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JFD

The success of Single Stack nationals is most likely a prelude to the success the new division will enjoy once it has status and shooters can get classifications.

I am amazed that so many look at the success of the SS Nats as a glass half full.

Remember, most all of us have a 1911, it is not like starting a new division like Open where everyone has to "retool" to get started.

The Single Stack Nationals does not and never has needed USPSA to be a big successful draw.

My observation is that people shoot Single Stack to get ready for that match ...after it is over the move on to some other divison such as Limited or Open pretty much for the rest of the year. It may help a little when the classifers count but SS is never going to be a big divison....it is a big division in the midwest for 1 month the month before the SS nationals ..well then its pretty much over numbers wise ...Ie L10 is bigger week after week than numbers in SS

But if people want to shoot it with 3 or 4 others every match thats cool.... as long as array rules are not made to accomodate that division.

Edited by nipplehead

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I tried to post this question on the USPSA forum but couldn't for some reason, I sent Rob an email about it. In the meantime, maybe somebody here can answer my question.....

If/When SS becomes permanent, will it be limited to only 1911's or will other ss guns be allowed to play? Does "1911 type" mean a 1911 or would any ss, single action be ok?

I read it to mean that the division is open to 1911-type pistols only.

From the 1st page of teh PSSD rulebook:

"Definition:

This Provisional Division is designed around the 1911 Government Model designed by

John M. Browning and adopted by the U.S. Government as the standard service pistol.

The Government Model was adopted as a 5 inch barrel gun. However within certain

limitations shorter barrel 1911 model pistols are also allowed."

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SS is growing in Western PA. With 857 shooters at 7 clubs, we have had 75 SS shooters, thats 8.8% of the shooters. Revolver is at 35 shooters. I say give it a chance.

Everyone needs to stop being so short-sighted. I just looked at the Area Match results from 2001. In the 7 Area Matches that year there was a grand total of 54 PRODUCTION SHOOTERS, I will say that again 54 production shooters or 7.7 shooters per match. If we would have listened to everyone who didn't think production would take off, we would have lost the second largest division in USPSA today.

There will be hot and cold spots for every division in USPSA. Just because the local shooters in your area are not shooting SS, does not mean that it is the same in other areas. The division will grow in popularity after the BOD gets off their duffs and eliminate the P from PSSD.

SSD is good for USPSA in many ways. It brings new shooters into and old shooters back into USPSA matches. It provides USPSA with sponsorship from many more companies (everyone makes a 1911 clone). It allows me and everyone else who owns a stock or near stock 1911 a place to shoot it that is not IDPA :) .

Once again, I say give it a chance.

Edited by Sestock

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JFD

The success of Single Stack nationals is most likely a prelude to the success the new division will enjoy once it has status and shooters can get classifications.

I am amazed that so many look at the success of the SS Nats as a glass half full.

Remember, most all of us have a 1911, it is not like starting a new division like Open where everyone has to "retool" to get started.

The Single Stack Nationals does not and never has needed USPSA to be a big successful draw.

My observation is that people shoot Single Stack to get ready for that match ...after it is over the move on to some other divison such as Limited or Open pretty much for the rest of the year. It may help a little when the classifers count but SS is never going to be a big divison....it is a big division in the midwest for 1 month the month before the SS nationals ..well then its pretty much over numbers wise ...Ie L10 is bigger week after week than numbers in SS

But if people want to shoot it with 3 or 4 others every match thats cool.... as long as array rules are not made to accomodate that division.

Nipplehead

You make my point for me. They shoot Single Stacks getting ready for the SS Nats, and then put them away to shoot Limited or whatever. Why do they do that????? Because they want to shoot in a recognized division. "Build it and they will come."

As has been stated above, the nay-sayers need to stop being so short sighted.

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Could someone tell me when they are going to bring back SS open class!!! Then i could bring out my 2 port springer 38 super with my scope doctor scope!!!!

I think we need a Nostalgia Division!! :lol:

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Everyone needs to stop being so short-sighted. I just looked at the Area Match results from 2001. In the 7 Area Matches that year there was a grand total of 54 PRODUCTION SHOOTERS, I will say that again 54 production shooters or 7.7 shooters per match. If we would have listened to everyone who didn't think production would take off, we would have lost the second largest division in USPSA today........

WHen Production was created there was no provisional status and the classifiers were counted immediately and it still took a year or two for Production to take off with participation numbers.

I honestly feel that when Single Stack is made a fully recognized division and is no longer provisional then the participation will also increase.

Alan

( And I did stay in a Hoildiay Inn Express last weekend) ;)

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I shot my SS in Limited when I started and became a C shooter then Limited 10 was started and I am still a C shooter. I shot my SS at a special classifier & won HOA SS still as a C shooter I guess because they are not posted on the USPSA website. To me the type of gun or division is not why I am shooting, it is because it is fun. Except for Production every other division I shoot is shot with a 45. I was reminded that I didn't have a Revolver classification. So I bought a 625 and plan to take it to my area's match just to be doing something different and to increase the number's.

The majority of the posts here are all about winning and while I would never turn down a trophy or a trip to a prize table that is not the only factor in my life. The most important thing is getting out of bed after that everything else is gravy. Now it is time for me to go practice moving 20 yard shots.

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In our club/section there is a points series going on and people are trying to win slots to nationals. They must shoot the same division all the way through or a simple majority of the matches.

In SS there are no slots awarded so you would not choose to shoot that division for the points series.

When we have matches that don't count for the points series there are many people who shoot SS division because they have fun with it.

The same goes for Area matches. People win slots by shooting the division they want a slot for.

When it means something the SS division will be a big hit!

Good Luck :)

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