IYAOYAS Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Ok, I was listening to two Master class shooters talk about how to shooting field courses and short courses, one thinks on the short courses shoot all points don't worry about time. The other said the exact opposite. Go as fast as possible hits anywere are ok. The both had opposite opinions on field courses. One is for all the points you can get and the other go fast as you can . The things is how opposite they were. What do you guys think? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Well I would like to say get all A's and you should have a good score but from what I have seen it isnt true. It seems like only speed counts. I have also seen the you should hit 90% of points. Speed up if you are hitting more slow down if less. I also havent seen that pan out. For instance a stage I just shot 6 paper, 6 steel total of 90 points possible. I shot it in 15 seconds but had one miss. Another guy shot it in 18.6 seconds without the miss I beat him on the stage. Seemed like our A-C's were about the same. I think the translation is about 10 points per second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 This topic may help: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=35605 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Gaines Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 You are not going to win the match on a short stage, but you sure can lose it on one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmap Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 (edited) Saul Kirsch covers this very detailed and very well in his book "Thinking Practical Shooting." BE has it for sale in his webstore. Me and a buddy of mine were at a weekend match at Rio and Angus H. gave me and my buddy an indepth, deeply psychological, thoughtful comment one time...........he said "It's simple really.....Shoot more Alphas faster." Thanks Angus. Edited April 25, 2007 by jasmap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 I was talking to Max and Travis (shameless name-dropping) about this at the Rio match the other weekend. I agree with the statement that you cannot win the match on a speed shoot but you can lose it and blow 40-50 points if you screw up badly enough or have a gun problem. With the field course there is the option if running really fast to get to the next position and get back some points if you screw up, but the speed shoot is pure shooting. There's usually little or no movement, everything has to work, the draw, reload, shot to shot and transitions all have to be spot on to maximise the points. There is just no margin for error whatsoever. I have found that the need to move quickly on a field course introduces tension - torque if you will - of the body to move it quickly through the course. With the speed shoot the opposite seems to be evident for me, the more relaxed I am the better I am able to shoot them; I don't think it's possible for 'force-speed' on a speed-shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Alright, I'll say it again...the conscious mind can ONLY HOLD ONE THOUGHT or PICTURE at a time. The conscious mind wants POINTS or SPEED. the subconscious delivers in spades. At the BEST of its TRAINED ability., You want speed? You got it. You want points? You got 'em. You want both? TRAIN. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 I shoot as quickly as I can keep them in the center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 On a short course... The only thing speed related that I am thinking about is a draw. I relax, but i want to get my first shot off as fast as possible. After that I just try to shoot all A's at my natural speed. On a long course, whenever I am not shooting, I am pushing myself to move as fast as possible to get to the next shot. Long courses are tough for me, because i need to keep shifting my attention between getting to the next spot, and just shooting as many A's as I can when I get there. Later, Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENE S Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 You can miss fast enough to win......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 I'll let you try that....as for me...I'll stick with aiming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 You can miss fast enough to win......... This is true. But if you can miss that fast you can slow down a tenth and get a hit. That will win you majors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 (edited) Why does it even matter??? Speed shoot vs. field course.... such discussion shows a total ignorance to the scoring system anyhow. Its not "speed shoot vs. field course" - its "high hit factor vs. low hit factor". That's the first problem. The second problem is that even being concerned about this kind of stuff distracts most people from real issue - shooting the gun. The truth of the matter is that the top dogs are going to shoot every stage at what appears to be warp speed to you, and they're going to shoot 95+% of the available points doing it. The answer for almost everyone is - shoot alphas as fast as you can. When is it useful to understand the difference between high (13+), medium (6-13), and low (0-6) hit factor stages? The demonstrate the uselessness of reloading the gun to make up one shot. Its also useful when planning a stage - to see if blowing past a disappearing target, or incurring a procedural penalty to gain a lot of ground (on a stupidly designed COF) might be worth it. And, in what will be decidedly low hit factor stages, it stresses the need to be more diligent about shooting As - Ds hurt even more on low hit factor stages. You have to tighten what you accept. Other than that - you should be shooting at the speed your sights dictate - period. Anyone who advocates throwing sloppy points onto targets really quick "cause its a speed shoot" isn't going to go very much further in the game.... ETA - IYAOYAS, I'm not suggesting that *you* are ignorant about the scoring system... but the two Masters you were listening to... Edited April 25, 2007 by XRe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 +1. it's all about hit factor..not short vs. long. speed shoots tend to be high hit factor stages with all the times close together..points are important..as is not making any mechanical mistakes.. It is a lot easier to lose a match on stage like this than win one.. As said before..the best strategy to win is shoot the most A's the fastest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Shoot Alphas - apply directly to your forehead Shoot Alphas - apply directly to your forehead Shoot Alphas - apply directly to your forehead Shoot Alphas - apply directly to your forehead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IYAOYAS Posted April 25, 2007 Author Share Posted April 25, 2007 Wow great answers guys!! The masters might not be happy but I'll stick to shooting the As as fast as I can. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Then just tell them you had 5 Grand Masters in this thread say to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Someone alot smarter than I am once said to me, "dont't take shooting advice from anyone who isn't a GM"...... a little over simplistic, and there are notable exceptions to that, (one or two who may be in this thread even) but it seems like that might apply here, in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tilley Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 The hit factor of the stage is very important. The hit factor determines how important points and speed are. The lower the hit factor the more important points are and the higher the hit factor the more important time is. Example: 150pts w/ all A’s shot in 15sec is a 10 hit factor so effectively 1 pt down is worth .10 sec and +1 sec. in the stage is worth 10 match pts. (Time is more important) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Merriam Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 Thanks Chris. Thats the most straight forward way I have heard it explained. I have been looking at my major match results trying to get some kind of information about how to improve my shooting metally. As I go back and remember how the stages were laid out, I can see my error. Too often I shoot too many points on a close short stage. It is hard for me to be sloppy for the sake of a faster time. Oh and before I forget, tell Brandon he is sandbagging that C class of his Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 HF is a good tool and all, but if you must think about it, also keep in mind the number of rounds. Dropping 1 point on a 10-shot stage is 2% right off the top. Dropping 1 point on a 20-shot stage is half that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 And I'll throw in this little tidbit: You need to KNOW what your particular abilities are on a given stage, so that you can plan YOUR strategy to walk away with the maximum number of points. I'm not the most flexible, mobile shooter out there --- so when i encounter a stage with say a Cooper Tunnel, even if it's a ridiculously high hit factor stage, my approach will be to shoot nothing but Alphas, because I know I can't keep up on time. That refusal to drop points, usually keeps me close to my normal ability level, and close to attaining my known stage percentage, on stages where the distractions are closer to normal..... To put it another way --- my change in approach is dictated by the demands of the stage to keep my performance relatively consistent with what it is on other stages in the match..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 Go RO a stage at a big match and watch the folks run through it. Several of y'all have great comments! When you watch shooters working/struggling hard through a long stage you can see their focus shift to speed because they think they are going too slow and if there are hard targets at the end they suffer. Their focus begins to suffer. My stage at the DTR Championship was like this. Wide open targets until the end with small plates to finish on. It had a bit of a run to get there too. Chris will know who I'm talking about when I say I watched several upper shooters on his squad run hard on the open targets only to loose focus at the end and leave a plate standing when they ran out of ammo. Were they going too fast? Maybe. They lost that fine focus and the smaller targets beat them. When Max and Travis came through they had a distinct focus that lasted through the stage to the end and they appeared mentaly relaxed yet really fast. I've shot matches called "Shoot till you Puke" and "La Matcha Loca" here in TX where all stages were 50 rounds plus. You must keep focus all the way through a 50 round field course! For me, when I push hard for speed the focus leaves. Go slow and get As...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 Mick, nice post. One thing though... Instead of "go slow...and get A's", I'd rather the shooter stuck with thinking "just get A's". When you throw in "go slow"...two negatives can happen mentally. One, it is still a speed focus. Two, the mind is now programmed to make the body "go slow". BTW, you highlighted two great stage design tricks that we like quite a bit here in Ohio. One is the down-shifting for tougher targets (like your plates at the end of the stage). The other is just getting the shooter out of their comfort zone...making them do something that is a bit out of the ordinary. Shooters want to be making that bang-bang noise from buzzer to the last shot. Throw in a delay and the tension level ratchets up. They feel they ought to be shooting. (Nice post, Mick) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 (edited) When I do it right, and don't let my head get in the way of my shooting, I shoot long stages the same as short......................For the highest points I can with the shortest time I can. Hopalong Spell check???? Edited April 27, 2007 by hopalong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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