.40 Cal Open Gun

[sps]

Hi all,

I hope that this is the right place to ask. I’m currently shooting Standard and considering buying an open gun. Thing is, however, I would like to get in Major but reload is illegal here and the only major pf ammo available is the Winchester 9x23 which is very rare, expensive and since it is very strong it causes a lot of problems in the long run. Therefore, I was thinking to my self, why not getting an open gun in .40 cal?.

I shoot .40 in my Standard gun and the PF is around 180 (no reload, remember?). is there any reason why not buying a .40 open gun? Can someone please tell me about the pros and cons of such gun in terms of reliability and whether it will provide PF to get into Major?

Your vies are appreciated,

[Glk21C]

your best bet is to do a search on the subject here on BE.com. It has been discussed MANY times. Good luck

[Flyin40]

Hi all,

I hope that this is the right place to ask. I’m currently shooting Standard and considering buying an open gun. Thing is, however, I would like to get in Major but reload is illegal here and the only major pf ammo available is the Winchester 9x23 which is very rare, expensive and since it is very strong it causes a lot of problems in the long run. Therefore, I was thinking to my self, why not getting an open gun in .40 cal?.

I shoot .40 in my Standard gun and the PF is around 180 (no reload, remember?). is there any reason why not buying a .40 open gun? Can someone please tell me about the pros and cons of such gun in terms of reliability and whether it will provide PF to get into Major?

Your vies are appreciated,

For 40cal 2 main things come to mind

1. Mag capacity I can get 26+1 vs the 38 or 9 where they can get 28, 29 or 30. So round

mag capacity is one very tiny issue. After shooting it for a couple yrs I don't see any

reason to change calibers until I shoot out the barrel or something major has to be

replaced and then I don't even know if I'll switch.

2. Bullet selection for reloading....and since you can't reload it doesn't matter to you.

What weight bullet can you get in the ammo you buy??? The lighter the better so the comp can work more.

In your situation I would say if you want to shoot Open you going to have to shoot the 40cal unless you want to spend a ton on ammo.

Flyin40

[Steve Anderson]

F40 forgot to add that there is NO WAY you can be competitve with an open .40....

Unless that's what you have and you decide to be.

I believe the whole "work the comp" thing is overblown with its own hot air.

Yes, you can work the comp. But in the grand scheme of things, it's a minor component of performance.

I did a BUNCH of tests with powder and bullets and found that nothing mattered as much as my performance.

My best ever el prez 3.6ish was done with 7625 which isn't as flat as 4756...it is more predictable. I'd much rather have some more predictable vertical movement than more unpredictable horizontal movement. that energey HAS to go somewhere... and up is better than out, in my opinion.

[Flyin40]

F40 forgot to add that there is NO WAY you can be competitve with an open .40....

Unless that's what you have and you decide to be.

I believe the whole "work the comp" thing is overblown with its own hot air.

Yes, you can work the comp. But in the grand scheme of things, it's a minor component of performance.

I did a BUNCH of tests with powder and bullets and found that nothing mattered as much as my performance.

My best ever el prez 3.6ish was done with 7625 which isn't as flat as 4756...it is more predictable. I'd much rather have some more predictable vertical movement than more unpredictable horizontal movement. that energey HAS to go somewhere... and up is better than out, in my opinion.

Steve pretty right on the mark. At last weeks match I shot 165gr bullets out of my 40 because I haven't made an order for this yr yet and didn't have any 135gr. I already knew they perform well and didn't mind at all.

Where I do notice a much bigger difference is when you try to shoot 180gr out of an open 40. I have been short bullets before and stopped by Walmart and picked up some white box 180's and they worked just fine in the match but there is alot more muzzle rise etc. with them.

Flyin40

[ChuckS]

SPS,

Since you say you are shooting Standard, I am assuming you are talking about IPSC (not USPSA) matches. Have you considered Modified? You have to shoot .40 or larger to score major so there would be a division that would be perfect for .40.

Later,

Chuck

[Will Abrahams]

SPS,

what does everyone else shoot in open division where your at? or do you shoot alot in other countries where it is legal to reload? as far as being competitive with a 40, i think it depends on what class you shoot in. as a D/C/B shooter i dont think it will be your equiptment (caliber or mag capacity) that is the limiting factor. i can see it being limiting for A/M/GM shooters though. of course it would make it easier with 38 supercomp, but with alot of practice i bet you could still be a competitive D/C/B shooter with 40.

my 2 cents...

[Flyin40]

SPS,

what does everyone else shoot in open division where your at? or do you shoot alot in other countries where it is legal to reload? as far as being competitive with a 40, i think it depends on what class you shoot in. as a D/C/B shooter i dont think it will be your equiptment (caliber or mag capacity) that is the limiting factor. i can see it being limiting for A/M/GM shooters though. of course it would make it easier with 38 supercomp, but with alot of practice i bet you could still be a competitive D/C/B shooter with 40.

my 2 cents...

The 40 in open can compete in all classes, D all the way up to GM. Its not the gun, its the shooter.

Flyin40

Edited April 14, 2007 by Flyin40

[ChuckS]

The 40 in open can compete in all classes, D all the way up to GM. Its not the gun, its the shooter.

Flyin40

A friend made master with open .40. He switched to 9mm major a couple years ago. He still has not made GM. Flying 40 has a point.

Later,

Chuck a B-shooter with a .40 open. I have come to realize the only thing keeping me from A is all the stuff that goes on between the shots!

[gino_aki]

.40 Open got me to B...with iron sights. With my current .38 Super I can't buy a B class score...so like Flyin40 said: ain't the caliber of the barrel, it's the caliber between the ears...or something to that effect.

If you could get .357 Sig in your area that just might get you the competitive Open solution you're looking for.

Edited April 15, 2007 by gino_aki

[sps]

Thank you all for sharing your views and thoughts.

I was reading the threads regarding the 40. open issue and from what I can see there are two main disadvantages for using 40 cal in open gun. The first is the lack of 1-2 rounds in the magazine. I must admit that I am not concerned at all with that.

The other disadvantage is the availability, or lack of, lightweight bullets, since the 40 works best with such lightweight rounds. Since we can only get 180gr rounds here I am worried about the level of muzzle rise. Is it actually that bad?

I know that local shooters who shoot 9x23 are using a 124gr round which brings them to a 186 pf and a hell of a bang! Is it better than using 180gr 40.? The 9x23 is so strong that I believe it causes great damage to the gun and scope in the long run.

So, here are the pros and cons (according to my understanding and regarding our local market)

40 Cal. - less rounds but more muzzle rise (with 180gr rounds) however, it is more "bang forgiving" and also more available.

9x23 Cal. - the compensator works good (it is 124gr) and you can get more rounds. however, even though that gus shoots "flat" the pf is hysteric (186pf) and the high pressure possibly shortens the life of the gun.

am i correct?

[gino_aki]

If the 9X23 is loaded to SAAMI specs I don't think life of the gun will be any less than anything anybody else shoots around here as long as it's set up correctly. As you've noted it WILL be expensive plus you'll be dealing with being 20 points over current PF minimum for major. On the other hand, whatever comp you have on your blaster will work good.

.40 Open running 180's will feel only slightly less recoil than running a Limited gun in the same caliber; one of my buddies' 6 in STI heavy Limited gun recoils less than my old .40 Open gun. Bore volume and bullet weight versus factory powder specs don't allow the comp to function as anything more than a barrel weight really.

[Steve Anderson]

There's no good reason to intentionally shoot .40 open if you don't have to.

There's no good reason to NOT shoot .40 open if that's what you have.

I only get 27+1 in my caspian 38sc. I could do a bunch of work and get more rds, but there's no real need.

Any legal stage with 30 rds will have an opportunity for a reload.

Now, 15 open targets at 7 yards from one position...I'd want 30 rds.

That would be a fun stage!

SA

[Flyin40]

Thank you all for sharing your views and thoughts.

I was reading the threads regarding the 40. open issue and from what I can see there are two main disadvantages for using 40 cal in open gun. The first is the lack of 1-2 rounds in the magazine. I must admit that I am not concerned at all with that.

The other disadvantage is the availability, or lack of, lightweight bullets, since the 40 works best with such lightweight rounds. Since we can only get 180gr rounds here I am worried about the level of muzzle rise. Is it actually that bad?

I know that local shooters who shoot 9x23 are using a 124gr round which brings them to a 186 pf and a hell of a bang! Is it better than using 180gr 40.? The 9x23 is so strong that I believe it causes great damage to the gun and scope in the long run.

So, here are the pros and cons (according to my understanding and regarding our local market)

40 Cal. - less rounds but more muzzle rise (with 180gr rounds) however, it is more "bang forgiving" and also more available.

9x23 Cal. - the compensator works good (it is 124gr) and you can get more rounds. however, even though that gus shoots "flat" the pf is hysteric (186pf) and the high pressure possibly shortens the life of the gun.

am i correct?

If I were in your situation and was dead set on shooting open and 180gr in the 40 was my only option I would do without hesitation. I love shooting open far more than anything else. I'll see if I can't find some 180's or buy some white box and shoot through the gun and let you know how it feels. If I have time I might even video tape the 2 loads during recoil.

Flyin40

[sps]

thank you, that would be great!

[Truegent2004]

I too am interested in open 40 (Cheaper brass, don't care about diminished mag capacity, I have a 40 cal Square Deal). I shoot 180 JHP Montana gold, with VV 320, for Limited. I get the feeling that MG 155 gr. would be better for open (with a slower burning VV powder (3n37?)). Any 40 cal open bullet/powder recipes anyone care to share?

Edited April 23, 2007 by Truegent2004

[uscbigdawg]

No recipes, but I will suggest a little slower powder like N320 or Titegroup for a little more gas volume and therefore work your comp better. Too, for simplicity of loading, rather than a seperate toolhead for your 40 Open & Limited loads, pick up a Redding Competition Seating die, so you can spin it to the correct seating depth and then one of the dials for powder measures to adjust between loads. Just a suggestion.

Rich

ETA: A good question is what kind of Open gun design to go with. Ported out or standard slide with 3-4 port comp. Lot of benefits both ways.

Edited April 23, 2007 by uscbigdawg

[BigDave]

...but I will suggest a little slower powder like N320 or Titegroup for a little more gas volume and therefore work your comp better.

Ummm...isn't there a general consensus that N320 and TG are fast powders? Ok, ok, ok, maybe not as fast as Clays or N310, but come on.

Unless you're running heavy bullets (165/180/200), you're probably looking at something like N340, SR7625 or 3N37.

Edited April 23, 2007 by BigDave

[Alan Meek]

I preferred hs-6 for my .40 Open Gun Loads.

Alan

[Flyin40]

...but I will suggest a little slower powder like N320 or Titegroup for a little more gas volume and therefore work your comp better.

Ummm...isn't there a general consensus that N320 and TG are fast powders? Ok, ok, ok, maybe not as fast as Clays or N310, but come on.

Unless you're running heavy bullets (165/180/200), you're probably looking at something like N340, SR7625 or 3N37.

+1

When switching from limited to open loads the only thing I change is the powder amount being used. I use the same OAL for for both. Couple days again I switched up and it took about 2mins to start putting rounds out the press. Just changed the charged weight, measured about 10 loads and off I went.

Flyin40

[uscbigdawg]

Yeah thought about it afterwards. N320 is faster.

That said, I was suggesting the different seating die for 155 bullets vs. 180's, in case there's a different desired OAL or due to bullet contour a different seating depth.

My bad.

Rich

[stevie b]

I too am interested in open 40 (Cheaper brass, don't care about diminished mag capacity, I have a 40 cal Square Deal). I shoot 180 JHP Montana gold, with VV 320, for Limited. I get the feeling that MG 155 gr. would be better for open (with a slower burning VV powder (3n37?)). Any 40 cal open bullet/powder recipes anyone care to share?

I don't believe the cost of components is that much of a difference.

Yea brass is cheaper,but bullets are way more.

[gino_aki]

7.3 Winchester WSF (Super Field)

155 Hornady XTP

Federal Small Pistol

Loaded long for feeding

PF generally around 178

Substituted Winchester WAP when they were still making it, 7.0

[TheQuietMan2]

I melted a JPoint into my Edge .40 so I could see better as the big Five Oh approaches.

The gun is the smallest part of the shooting solution.

[ChuckS]

I am finally on my home computer where my load records are.

Rainier 135 plated bullets

8.6 N350 1.151 ~ 165PF with some unburnt powder

8.2 N340 1.175 ~ 170PF clean

9.2 Silhouette 1.157 ~170PF slight unburnt powder

The Silhouette seems to be a pretty good load. Not quite as clean as N340 but a whole bunch cheaper. It seems to fall in between 340 and 350 for burn rate. I tried Berrys bullets early on but got better results with Rainiers. That was about 15,000 rounds ago...

Later,

Chuck

PS: You can try these loads at your own risk!