Tigger Pull Weight And Non Federal Primers 625-8

[slflr]

Here is what the new ones look like. I haven't got my hands on any to evaluate their sensitivity compared to Federals.

Never seen that package.

Maybe worth a try.

I have primers packaged similarly that have been on my shelf for at least 3 years.

I don't think this is anything new. The "new" ones (on my shelf) are brass color. Weren't the older ones 5 or 6 years ago nickel?

[sargenv]

I did some testing a week or two ago. I loaded 200 rounds with Winchester primers and went out to practice. Out of 200 rounds, I had 3 light strikes with failures to fire. When I hit them again, they went off. When I shoot Federal primers, I never have a light strike and they all go off. I had Dan Carden work on my 627. We put in a Wolffe light mainspring and the action already felt pretty good. We also intalled the C&S extended firing pin. He bobbed the hammer and it feels almost as good as my well worn 610. I'm going to use the Winchester primers for practice and rely on the Federals for my matches. I have enough Federals probably for the year, but since they are so scarce and expensive, I'd rather use something I can get readily for practice and rely on the good stuff for when it counts.

Vince

[Carlos]

As far as lightening the hammer, that's all well and good if you have oodles of Fed. But I like the extra few grams of hammer weight to help ensure ignition.

Whoa, let's back up here a sec.....I know you're trying to help, but you're RePeteing an old wive's tale here.

In reality, a lighter hammer actually improves ignition. When it comes to primer igntion (and I'll quote Randy Lee on this) "Fast slap always beats slow crushing blow." A lighter hammer has faster lock time, and will slap the primer better. That's the whole point of the Randy hammer, and the whole point of the home Dremel version that I do.

Adjust the mainspring tension on a stock revolver's DA pull right down to the raw edge of ignition reliability. Then replace the stock hammer with a lightened hammer with 40% of the weight cut away, and you will find you can reduce the mainspring tension down even further and still get reliable ignition.

I was at the Winchester factory a coupla weeks ago, and had a talk with Paul Nowak. He assures me that Winchester primers have the same sensitivity as Federal.

I'm not sure he's right, but it certainly bears some experimentation. After all anything has to be more sensitive than CCI.

I shot with Paul last year at the Single Stack Classic, first time I'd seen him since the days of those "Big Money Shootoffs" up at Second Chance. I enjoyed talking with him, and I've always appreciated Winchester ammo's support of the shooting sports.

But Paul is incorrect on the primer thing.

Paul is definately wrong about Winchester's being the same as Federal.

Carmoney:

I'll pick up another hammer and try your Dremel lightening and give an objective report. I like to experiment too.

I agree- Paul is wrong about that. Ask him whether Winchester is using a "Basic" or a "Normal" formulation of lead styphnate in their new primers, and whether they recently switched. If not, then there is NO WAY their primers are the same a Federal. The tests above seem to confirm that Winchesters are not as sensitive as Federal. Not only is Federal using a different priming compound, but the metal seems softer as Federals flatten out even with reasonable pressure loads.

BTW - in Rifle factory ammo, my AR will only set off two brands of factory ammo - Federal & Wolf. Anyone know where the Wolf reloading primers are made? Is it Germany?

[D.carden]

Vince,

Did you chrono any of the those loaded with Win primers.......????(velocity??)

DanBagger

[BIGDEER]

Is this a Smith & Wesson problem only? I have had no troubles with my Rugers.

BIGDEER

[aerosigns]

Mike (MS),

On your question about hand primers -

I had a Lee hand primer and after a few thousand rounds I can tell you it's a POS.

The other Mike (C.) counseled me on getting an RCBS, which I did. It works great.

One point on RCBS. On my original one the little rod that drives the primer into the pocket wouldn't always drop all the way down. I called RCBS about it to ask what to do. The rep said the rod might be bent, and they would replace it. What showed up was a whole complete hand primer. Now that's service.

[hopalong]

Since I have at least 2 years worth of Federal Primers I'm not too worried about this for me.

But just goofing off because of this thread I tried some of my loaded ammo for the Kimber in my 25-2 that is sitting on a 6 lbs DA trigger pull.

Out of the 50 I shot, 49 went bang the first time, the other did not go bang at all no matter how many times I tried with the 25. I did go the first time in the Kimber though.

When I was shooting a 610 with small pistol primers, I practiced with Win Small pistols and had to keep it at near 8 lbs to get 100% on the Winchesters.

Just my experiance, others will have differences.

Hopalong

[Cherryriver]

A Lee hand primer helped my 625 shoot more often, as did Federals. But even with stock springs, it would still occasionally fail to fire Winchester White Box.

Federals are getting tough to get for me, too, so it's Winchesters all the way now.

So I sold the 625.

The only other light-striker I ever fooled with was a Colt Magnum Carry, a shame since it's only useful as a self-defense gun. I tried changing the spring and adding pressure, but still it wasn't perfect. I have come to understand from the Colt Forum that the MCs had troubles with short firing pins, so mine's going back as soon as I get around to it.

I do believe the newer Winchester primers are better to some degree, but compared to a 1911, the firing pin strike on revolvers' frame-mounted firing pins is pretty weak, even in a Python. I use the pencil-shooting test and while a 1911 will almost stick it in the ceiling, no frame-mount pin gun I have will make more than about four feet vertically.

Now, the old hammer-mount Colt Es, like an Official Police, will wreck pencils pretty fast. They're almost cruel-to-primers.

Sometimes progress is uneven.

Bill

Edited April 11, 2007 by Cherryriver

[41mag]

Is this a Smith & Wesson problem only? I have had no troubles with my Rugers.

BIGDEER

BIGDEER,

It can be a problem with the Rugers as well if you lighten the springs and fire double action. My Redhawk is not 100% any more double action just due to wear/age (a lot of dry fire). The double action pull on the Redhawk is 9 lbs which is 1lb more than I need on my Smith to be 100% with CCI primers (the hardest ones).

The Rugers can have other problems that cause ignition issues as well. If you do a search on here there is some really good info.

41mag

Since I have at least 2 years worth of Federal Primers I'm not too worried about this for me.

But just goofing off because of this thread I tried some of my loaded ammo for the Kimber in my 25-2 that is sitting on a 6 lbs DA trigger pull.

Out of the 50 I shot, 49 went bang the first time, the other did not go bang at all no matter how many times I tried with the 25. I did go the first time in the Kimber though.

When I was shooting a 610 with small pistol primers, I practiced with Win Small pistols and had to keep it at near 8 lbs to get 100% on the Winchesters.

Just my experiance, others will have differences.

Hopalong

Are the Kimber loads primed with Winchester?

Your results sound good enough that those loads could be used for practice. I find the ocasional misfire very revealing .

thanks for the info,

41mag

[Patrick Sweeney]

Paul Nowak is sending me some of the newest production lot of W-W primers, so I can test them.

As soon as I know something, it'll be here.

[sargenv]

Dan,

No I wasn't chrono'ing that day. I can load up a bunch and test em tomorrow though. Need to practice for that match next week

Vince

[Gregg K]

Paul Nowak is sending me some of the newest production lot of W-W primers, so I can test them.

As soon as I know something, it'll be here.

If you get behind, I can help test about 20K for you.

[granderojo]

After talking to a tech in cusotmer service at Federal last week, the supply of primers that are being produced (large & small) at this time are going to the completed ammo line (none for lose sale). He is a hand loader & can't get any for himself. He also said that the demand for loaded ammo is at all time high as well, no one has any idea why. Production is 24-7 he says & obviously can't keep up. No date in near future for change according to him.sorry not good news. Hopefully "new "win will work out.

Edited April 11, 2007 by granderojo

[mshotwell]

Mike (MS),

On your question about hand primers -

I had a Lee hand primer and after a few thousand rounds I can tell you it's a POS.

The other Mike (C.) counseled me on getting an RCBS, which I did. It works great.

One point on RCBS. On my original one the little rod that drives the primer into the pocket wouldn't always drop all the way down. I called RCBS about it to ask what to do. The rep said the rod might be bent, and they would replace it. What showed up was a whole complete hand primer. Now that's service.

Jim

I shot alot of benchrest, we use to load between relays. I always carried 2 Lee hand primers with me. Just in case. I have sinclair now, it's a single feed, but fully ajustable.

It would take a long time to use it.

Thanks

Mike

[Carmoney]

He also said that the demand for loaded ammo is at all time high as well, no one has any idea why.

Just got back from a visit to my local Sportsman's Warehouse. I've never seen them so low on bulk reloading stuff and value-priced ammo. Very few pistol/rifle primers of any sort to be found. Almost no cast bullets. Hardly any Wolf ammo. Prices sky-high on what little they did have. The sales guy saw me shaking my head in the aisle and told me not to expect any relief soon, said the supply lines are really dry right now.

Gotta wonder if some of the reason is hoarding due to general concern from the shooting public that the next presidential election may pit two anti-gunners against one another, under the backdrop of a congress that is all too willing to tromp on our constitutional rights.

[Cherryriver]

Well, Mike, I think that gun and ammo sales are up, and it has to do with war, but mostly, I've been hearing that it's the combination of military purchasing and just plain high metals costs.

High commodity costs are always due to scarcity. What isn't a gun thing is the worldwide presure on copper. My electrician associates are having to reprice larger jobs every week just to keep abreast of the rising price of copper wire. Same, to a lesser degree, for plumbers I know.

I understand lead has some market pressure, too.

Ammunition is just a bystander in these sorts of markets.

Bill

[Carlos]

Well, Mike, I think that gun and ammo sales are up, and it has to do with war, but mostly, I've been hearing that it's the combination of military purchasing and just plain high metals costs.

High commodity costs are always due to scarcity. What isn't a gun thing is the worldwide presure on copper. My electrician associates are having to reprice larger jobs every week just to keep abreast of the rising price of copper wire. Same, to a lesser degree, for plumbers I know.

I understand lead has some market pressure, too.

Ammunition is just a bystander in these sorts of markets.

Bill

Add the increased demand from 1) the war 2) Homeland Security response/training 3) rising international demand - ie China and 4) the fact that the reloading/shooting world is understandably worried & hoarding, the current shortage makes sense.

[aerosigns]

Today I purchased 50K of rifle ammo, and 25K of handgun ammo. Both for training purposes at my 'real' job.

Last year at about this time I had made the exact same order on the rifle ammo. Todays cost for the ammo was up 50%, and to add insult the shipping charges had went up 100%. The rifle ammo is the Winchester Ranger Frangible SF Lead Free. The bullet is a Copper/Tin alloy, brass case, and totally heavy metal free primer. So you can see it's not just the lead ammo market.

I normally use Remington handgun ammo for practice. I can tell you that in my particular caliber there is none available in the country. I bought every single round available per the factory, in Feb. Then I had a problem with it. They have recalled all of it, and can't tell me when they will ever be able to replace it. I have been waiting since Nov. 2006 for them to even fill my original 15K order, which they have yet to be able to do.

I had a long chat with a handgun ammo maker today. They were telling me that they are getting primers from CCI, Ruag, and another unnamed company. He was telling me that part of the issue is that there are 'lead' and metal components in the primers.

As someone else mentioned the War and China are sucking the metals markets so hard your fillings should be rattling. Discovery Channel the other night said that at Chinas current consumption of raw materials, they will need another planet Earth within 20 years.

Just like we figured out how to wipe out the Soviets without nuking them, maybe China has figured out how to disarm America without using a Democrat?

Edited April 11, 2007 by aerosigns

[41mag]

OK, I'll go out on a limb here. I spent two hours at the range this morning fiddling with my mainspring. I have a 625 with Black Widow springs (?) and at six pounds double action it will reliably break Federal LP and LP Magnum primers. Turning the screw a little over 1/2 turn will increase the pull to 7lbs, and that would break the Winchester primers (and these are not new primers, they are at least two years old.) I have been told that the new WW primers will be softer, but I will believe that when I shoot them.

I have not bobbed the hammer, so I don't know how much effect that will have.

PAT

I'm not living right! Today I tried setting my trigger down to almost 6 lb by loosening the strain screw and it would just barely leave a mark on the Federal primers . At seven lb 4 oz. it will light them up every time.

Six lb. is now my new goal! If you can do it I want to do it too!

Going to put a Dremel on my to get list along with some metal polish and some hammer shims.

I am using a Lyman digital trigger scale to measure pull weight in case you thought I was just guessing . I asked a shooter at a local match what is pull weight was on his 625 and he said about 2 or 3 pound!! I should of found out what primers he was using .

41mag

[Jaxshooter]

There is no way his double action pull is 2-3 lbs and will fire even Federal Primers reliably.

[hopalong]

41mag,

Yes the Kimber loads are Winchester large Pistol, and that is exactly the ideal. That way I can have YEARS worth of MATCH LOADS with FEDERAL primers!

And the 2-3 pound pull would most likely be single action, or just what he thinks is 2-3 lbs.

Hopalong

[pskys2]

Welllll! With the original springs my Randy Lee Action Job is 3 3/4 Lbs. and lights Feds all day. I upped it to 4 3/4 Lbs. with the addition of a Wolf 11 Lb. Return Spring, for the snappier reset.

Randy had been working on sub 3 Lb DA pulls, but that was before he became popular and I hear he is now chained to his work bench. The poor guy can't even dump his own waste bucket, let alone get near a computer (from what super secret sources have said, at least).

But, you can count the number of Randy Lee sub 4 Lb. Actions on only a few peoples digits. So he probably was talking SA, most non-Revo's actually shoot that way at 15+yards. A true Revolero will always stroke it DA. Most of us have forgot there was even a SA notch available.

Now I don't feel so bad about my big F150 Primer Purchase last year. Will probably regret not getting more and some SP!

[Carlos]

We are using a lot more ammunition in Afganistan and Iraq than I thought & are buying it from Israel to make up the US shortage (though the "ratio" cited probably does not account for training & is pure media hype):

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americ...ticle314944.ece

[Dave Wilson]

But, you can count the number of Randy Lee sub 4 Lb. Actions on only a few peoples digits. So he probably was talking SA, most non-Revo's actually shoot that way at 15+yards. A true Revolero will always stroke it DA. Most of us have forgot there was even a SA notch available.

Now I don't feel so bad about my big F150 Primer Purchase last year. Will probably regret not getting more and some SP!

I've almost finished my trigger on my new v-comp 627 last week. The trigger guage says it's 3-14 and w/ the extended firing pin, it lights off everything. Ok, by everything.. I mean federal 100 primers seated fully & way below flush. I was thinking about making a small run of reloads with another brand of primer to test at what point mine will reliably light off the others at. That's probablky a test to run after the IRC though. I still need to de-spur the hammer, so I'll see what that does for or against me.

Dave

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Now I don't feel so bad about my big F150 Primer Purchase last year. Will probably regret not getting more and some SP!

Well, I have 15000 150s right now so I am set. I am down to 5000 on the 100s so I am on the hunt.

They are tough to get in MA as no one will ship here.

Regards,