Tigger Pull Weight And Non Federal Primers 625-8

[41mag]

As many of you know I am new to this game. I am having a blast with the wheel gun.

I thank all of you here for the help and information you have given me.

I cut about two coils off the rebound and bent the main spring to produce a 7lb pull with the strain screw fully seated. This works great with Federal primers. Now I can't get any Federals . Set up this way it won't light the CCI primers. If I install a spent primer under the strain screw for a 9lb pull it will. I could get used to the 9lb pull I suppose but right now I don't like it.

I know my trigger job is rudimentary at best and was wondering if I could improve on it in such a way as to have a 7lb pull that would light some other primer besides the Federal.

I have been putting off the task of Carmonizing the hammer. If I was to lighten the hammer in that fashion how much lower could the spring weight be for reliable ignition?

Another words would I be able to lower the trigger pull from 9lbs to ? and light the CCI primers? (with the lighter hammer).

Will polishing anything (like rebound slide) on the inside help much with pull weight?

I think in the future I would like to have someone (Randy Lee) tune my gun for a light action that will light every thing. This Federal primer crunch is nuts.

Revolver shooters must be a very small niche in the scheme of things or you would think another manufacture would give Federal some competion. I could see CCI producing softer cups and marketing them to us roundgun shooters.

Well I better go start my new exercise program (dry fire with 9lb trigger), got to get in shape.

Thanks for your time and advise.

41mag

[Carmoney]

Pat, all other things being equal, a lightened hammer will allow you to lower the trigger pull somewhat, but it won't be huge--maybe a pound? Maybe not even that much.

Even Randy Lee, good as he is, can only do so much. You can't have "super-light action" and also have "lights everything." Polishing stuff inside shouldn't really affect the ignition issue, although you do want to make sure the hammer is falling freely (no rubbing the sides as it drops), that you're getting nicely-centered firing pin hits on the primers, and that your gun has no excessive end-shake.

Couple other suggestions: Winchester or Remington primers will work better than CCI for you, if you can find them. Invest in a hand primer seating tool and re-squeeze every primer in by hand, to make sure they're all below flush.

Hopefully they'll have Federals back in the pipeline soon.

[LPatterson]

I am new to a wheel gun to so I don't any answers but the Winchester primers worked a lot better that the CCI I tried.

[Patrick Sweeney]

I was at the Winchester factory a coupla weeks ago, and had a talk with Paul Nowak. He assures me that Winchester primers have the same sensitivity as Federal.

I'm not sure he's right, but it certainly bears some experimentation. After all anything has to be more sensitive than CCI.

[RePete]

I have a 625 and it had the Mikulec spring kit in it - great for Fed primers but no so for Win.

I installed the factory mainspring and now zero ignition problems with any primer.

The pull is heavier, you just have to work through that. It ain't no biggie.

As far as lightening the hammer, that's all well and good if you have oodles of Fed. But I like the extra few grams of hammer weight to help ensure ignition.

[Carmoney]

As far as lightening the hammer, that's all well and good if you have oodles of Fed. But I like the extra few grams of hammer weight to help ensure ignition.

Whoa, let's back up here a sec.....I know you're trying to help, but you're RePeteing an old wive's tale here.

In reality, a lighter hammer actually improves ignition. When it comes to primer igntion (and I'll quote Randy Lee on this) "Fast slap always beats slow crushing blow." A lighter hammer has faster lock time, and will slap the primer better. That's the whole point of the Randy hammer, and the whole point of the home Dremel version that I do.

Adjust the mainspring tension on a stock revolver's DA pull right down to the raw edge of ignition reliability. Then replace the stock hammer with a lightened hammer with 40% of the weight cut away, and you will find you can reduce the mainspring tension down even further and still get reliable ignition.

I was at the Winchester factory a coupla weeks ago, and had a talk with Paul Nowak. He assures me that Winchester primers have the same sensitivity as Federal.

I'm not sure he's right, but it certainly bears some experimentation. After all anything has to be more sensitive than CCI.

I shot with Paul last year at the Single Stack Classic, first time I'd seen him since the days of those "Big Money Shootoffs" up at Second Chance. I enjoyed talking with him, and I've always appreciated Winchester ammo's support of the shooting sports.

But Paul is incorrect on the primer thing.

[41mag]

Pat, all other things being equal, a lightened hammer will allow you to lower the trigger pull somewhat, but it won't be huge--maybe a pound? Maybe not even that much.

Even Randy Lee, good as he is, can only do so much. You can't have "super-light action" and also have "lights everything." Polishing stuff inside shouldn't really affect the ignition issue, although you do want to make sure the hammer is falling freely (no rubbing the sides as it drops), that you're getting nicely-centered firing pin hits on the primers, and that your gun has no excessive end-shake.

Couple other suggestions: Winchester or Remington primers will work better than CCI for you, if you can find them. Invest in a hand primer seating tool and re-squeeze every primer in by hand, to make sure they're all below flush.

Hopefully they'll have Federals back in the pipeline soon.

Thanks everyone,

There are rub marks on the left side of my hammer and frame (lock side). When you thumb the hammer back and forth by hand there is enough play it it from side to side that it can rub. It also appears to rest againest the frame on that side when hammer down.

How do I fix that? I think I saw or read somewhere that Brownells has spacers for this. What would be my best course of action?

Looking at the primer strikes on my spent cases I would have to say they are not dead nuts center but are close.

I can detect about zero end play by hand / eye. This is a pretty new gun I got a couple of weeks ago (new).

The CCI primers that I tried have been laying around for about 10 years, just thought I'd use them up. I will get out and buy some Winchesters as soon as I get a chance. Would be nice if they work as well as the Federal cause they seem to be cheaper in my neck of the woods.

Mike,

Are you resqueezeing primers before powder drop and bullet seating or on loaded ammo?

thanks folks,

Pat

[RePete]

As far as lightening the hammer, that's all well and good if you have oodles of Fed. But I like the extra few grams of hammer weight to help ensure ignition.

Whoa, let's back up here a sec.....I know you're trying to help, but you're RePeteing an old wive's tale here.

In reality, a lighter hammer actually improves ignition. When it comes to primer igntion (and I'll quote Randy Lee on this) "Fast slap always beats slow crushing blow." A lighter hammer has faster lock time, and will slap the primer better. That's the whole point of the Randy hammer, and the whole point of the home Dremel version that I do.

Adjust the mainspring tension on a stock revolver's DA pull right down to the raw edge of ignition reliability. Then replace the stock hammer with a lightened hammer with 40% of the weight cut away, and you will find you can reduce the mainspring tension down even further and still get reliable ignition.

I was at the Winchester factory a coupla weeks ago, and had a talk with Paul Nowak. He assures me that Winchester primers have the same sensitivity as Federal.

I'm not sure he's right, but it certainly bears some experimentation. After all anything has to be more sensitive than CCI.

I shot with Paul last year at the Single Stack Classic, first time I'd seen him since the days of those "Big Money Shootoffs" up at Second Chance. I enjoyed talking with him, and I've always appreciated Winchester ammo's support of the shooting sports.

But Paul is incorrect on the primer thing.

Paul is definately wrong about Winchester's being the same as Federal.

Carmoney:

I'll pick up another hammer and try your Dremel lightening and give an objective report. I like to experiment too.

[aerosigns]

41,

I have followed the teaching of 'Father' Mike and now have two 625's with bobbed hammers and bent springs. I have also polished everything on the inside of the guns. As Mike said it won't lower your trigger pull, but by removing drag you don't add anything to it either. In trying to make both guns identical I have them currently at 7 lbs exactly.

I can successfully fire anything on the Wal-mart shelf. This is a good thing given my factory sponsored ammo at the Nationals for 2006. In a misguided effort to reach the bottom of the power factor floor I twice came up with a PF of 0.00. The Federal primers worked great and were able to push the bullet half way up the barrel.

At near warp speed I flew up to the Wal-mart in Quincy and bought all of the Remington .45 acp on the shelf. (Note: They will look at you funny when you run through Wal-mart to the Sporting Goods Dept. and yell 'Quick! put all of your .45 ammo in a bag', throw money at them and then run back out of the store. Just in case you ever want to try it.)

I went back to PASA to test fire for ignition. Everything went fine, and I did not have another problem for the remainder of the match. I also had NO problem making Major at the chrono.

[granderojo]

I have not tried the new win primers, have heard the same about improved sensitivty, but the outside of the new 1k boxes have a white triangle in the upper left corner, for what its worth. We are trying to get a box of triangle to try. Will post results when availavble. Hopefully someone will beat me to it.

Edited April 8, 2007 by granderojo

[Carmoney]

There are rub marks....How do I fix that? I think I saw or read somewhere that Brownells has spacers for this.

Power Custom makes thin little shim washers that are designed to keep the hammer and triggers from rubbing, I've never actually tried them but have no doubt they can improve things on guns where rubbing is a problem. I'm fairly sure Brownells stocks them, but if not I believe Power has a website.

Mike,

Are you resqueezeing primers before powder drop and bullet seating or on loaded ammo?

I refuse to answer that question. Let's just say I've heard of it being done both ways, and the theoretically safer (but certainly more time-consuming) way is to hand-seat the primers before loading powder and bullet.

(Note: They will look at you funny when you run through Wal-mart to the Sporting Goods Dept. and yell 'Quick! put all of your .45 ammo in a bag', throw money at them and then run back out of the store. Just in case you ever want to try it.)

Of all the Wal-Marts in all the world, probably the store that would be the least surprised by this sort of thing would be the Wal-Mart in Quincy, Illinois.

[Bwana Six-Gun]

OK, I'll go out on a limb here. I spent two hours at the range this morning fiddling with my mainspring. I have a 625 with Black Widow springs (?) and at six pounds double action it will reliably break Federal LP and LP Magnum primers. Turning the screw a little over 1/2 turn will increase the pull to 7lbs, and that would break the Winchester primers (and these are not new primers, they are at least two years old.) I have been told that the new WW primers will be softer, but I will believe that when I shoot them.

I have not bobbed the hammer, so I don't know how much effect that will have.

PAT

[Gregg K]

Here is what the new ones look like. I haven't got my hands on any to evaluate their sensitivity compared to Federals.

[Carmoney]

Hey--cool!! (Maybe Paul N. was right after all!)

It would be great to have another source of revo-friendly primers other than Federal.

[RePete]

Here is what the new ones look like. I haven't got my hands on any to evaluate their sensitivity compared to Federals.

Never seen that package.

Maybe worth a try.

[pskys2]

I've used the shims in several Revo's. They work very well. They also make some that fit the pin for the Trigger. My old m29 has both sets, and many of them (something like 2 on 1 side and 3 on the other).

You can put them on either/both sides, add a little oil and off you go. Too many will, of course, bind.

P.S. you might try either getting a new mainspring and bending it for a heavier pull or set the original for the heavier pull and cut an old strain screw down a bit to lighten it up, if you find Federals again.

Also, have you checked Wideners? they had quite a few in stock last winter and if you order several flats the HazMat Fee isn't so bad.

[41mag]

Great info, thanks.

Maybe my gun will light Winchesters at 7lb, I will have to get some and give it a try.

To go back and forth right now between Feds and CCI I install a spent primer under the strain screw for the CCI's and that works just fine. 2lb increase in pull weight.

I will get me some of those spacers also.

Its hard to believe the difference in dry fire practice with the extra 2lb's of pull weight, my finger tires much more quickly when shooting long strings. I guess 2lb's on a trigger must be like 20lb's on the bench!

I will look for the new package of Winchester primers, any one know where to buy them already?

thanks everyone,

Pat

[41mag]

I found some Federal 155 magnum primers. Are they the same sensitivity as the 150's?

I would have to order several I suppose to spread out the haz mat and shipping charges so I would want to make sure they will work.

thanks,

Pat

looks like Cabelas has the new Winchester primers. ($ ouch 27.00) edit

Edited April 9, 2007 by 41mag

[aerosigns]

Hey guys,

I can't swear to what he can get but I buy my 150's from 'Squishy' on here.

Last time I got 10K for $180.00.

You might look for him on here and PM him. I don't know about shipping but he will take care of you if at all possible. He has a store in Wisconsin if anyone is up that way or going to the WI Section.

[Luke Fay]

Cabelas, is suppose to have FED 150's in stock April 10, expensive, at 24.99 for a box of 1000 plus hazmat fee and shipping. I realy do hope new Winchester will work, components just keep cost climbing this year.

[Bwana Six-Gun]

I found some Federal 155 magnum primers. Are they the same sensitivity as the 150's?

I would have to order several I suppose to spread out the haz mat and shipping charges so I would want to make sure they will work.

thanks,

Pat

looks like Cabelas has the new Winchester primers. ($ ouch 27.00) edit

Like I said earlier, my six pound double-action will reliably break the magnums. I am told they use the same cup, just a different compound. Last time I checked, Wideners (sp?) had magnums in stock for about two bucks more per thousand than regulars. I plan to get some.

[EricW]

I've been lurking curiously here. Anybody tried solving the Winchester sensitivity issue by cranking down on the primer seating punch on thier 1050?

[Carmoney]

Eric, I think that's one huge advantage of having a 1050--primers are seated on the downstroke and you can adjust the machine to put them exactly where you want them--which for revolver shooters means "slightly crush-seated to below flush."

I've been talking about hand-seating, but if you're lucky enough to own a 1050, you don't have to worry about that. Someday I need to own one of those wonderful machines....but my original Square Deal has been with me so long I hate to abandon it for a "trophy press" now that I can afford one.

To address your point more specifically, I know a guy who wanted to make sure he could shoot a match with hurriedly-purchased Winchester White Box (WWB) ball from Wal-Mart in a pinch. He discovered that the lightened actions in his match revolvers would give a click every now and then with WWB. But lo and behold, if he used his trusy hand-seating tool and re-squeezed all the primers on that factory ammo, it would go bang every time! This was good to know, in case this shooter ever got separated from his ammo on the way to a big match but had a rental car and a nearby Wal-Mart available.

[mshotwell]

What priming tool do you guys use?

[41mag]

I've used the shims in several Revo's. They work very well. They also make some that fit the pin for the Trigger. My old m29 has both sets, and many of them (something like 2 on 1 side and 3 on the other).

You can put them on either/both sides, add a little oil and off you go. Too many will, of course, bind.

P.S. you might try either getting a new mainspring and bending it for a heavier pull or set the original for the heavier pull and cut an old strain screw down a bit to lighten it up, if you find Federals again.

Also, have you checked Wideners? they had quite a few in stock last winter and if you order several flats the HazMat Fee isn't so bad.

thanks for the tip pskys2, I ordered some 155's from there. They are out of the 150's.

They have about 70 or so left of the 155's.

41mag

Like I said earlier, my six pound double-action will reliably break the magnums. I am told they use the same cup, just a different compound. Last time I checked, Wideners (sp?) had magnums in stock for about two bucks more per thousand than regulars. I plan to get some.

Thanks for the info Six-Gun.

I don't remember trying my revolver at 6lbs, I will have to give it a try.

41mag