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#shots Vs Reload Managment Help


WFisher

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I am looking for some help as to how some of you manage you reloads for a stage. I shoot a XD-9 in production class so this limits to 10 rounds per magazine. I was told at my last match that I could load 11 in the first magazine so you start with 10 + 1 ( So I started doing that). Do you look at the stage and count every 5th target and know to drop a mag at that location or do you try and keep track as you go. I have been trying to mag change before the slide locks on an empty Magazine because a reload with locked open or empty chamber defiantly takes longer than changing before you run dry. The last club match I shot this past weekend was laid out with about 4 targets per area (i.e... shots through a door or window port) within the stage so it was easy to say "I will just drop a mag while moving to next opening or shooting location" other stages aren't so easy to manage. Just looking for some input and ideas from some of you more experienced shooters on the best way to manage this.

Thanks

William

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Hey there WFisher,

I am fairly new to (1 year) in this sport, but the most valuable thing I was told by those better than me is to multi-task where possible. Meaning, moving between shooting positions, be it boxes, walls or ports, is dead time and you should try to coordinate your reloads with your movements.

Standing and reloading should be avoided at all costs because it is pure wasted seconds.

I wouldn't lock into something as rigid as counting every 5th target. Obviously you want to plan it out like that in your pre stage walk through, but once the buzzer goes off and you start shooting it never goes that smooth because of misses and make up shots.

Good Luck.

Edited by Texas HK shooter
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I shoot production most of the time, and plan my reloads. Most of the time, if I'm moving I'm reloading --- sometimes after having fired only 2 or 4 rounds. I've started stages that had a single target to be taken from the start, followed by enough movement to permit a reload, followed by six or eight rounds including steel or movers. Yeah --- odds are I could do that most of the time without reloading, but why not reload?

It is one of the harder skills to pick up --- because every stage is different, and many have multiple options. Sometimes it helps to start the breakdown at the end of the stage, and to work it backwards. At every position ask yourself two questions:

1. What targets do I have to shoot here? (Not available elsewhere.)

2. What other targets can I shoot here, and what does that buy/cost me as opposed to shooting them elsewhere?

In a little while you'll have a database of such situations in your head, and it'll go easier....

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Plan your reloads during your walk through. If you can, also plan for make up shots. Know what to do if you need to take extra shots. Eventually, after many many many matches, you will, hopefully, be able to paln on the fly. Sometimes, you will need to reload for one or two shots and then reload again to get back into the game plan after an extra shot. I usually know how many shots I need to shoot between reloads so I will know when and where my make up shots are coming from. Reloading between shooting positions is usually a good idea when you are starting out - but not always.

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+1

Moving = Reloading.

The only exception to this would be if you KNOW that you are going to shoot from point A, move to Point B, then move to Point C and you KNOW that you will have enough to reload on the way to C.

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Most of the comments are (as usual) spot on.

Generally I prefer to manage the reloads to the course. That often times means possibly only shooting one or two targets out of a mag - but strategically it often (mostly??) times makes sense to load when you can - not when you've shot the mag dry.

Reloads are generally time consuming so I try figure out where the most time savings are. That generally equates to reload management versus shot management.

There are exceptions - of course. I've generally found that those exceptions almost always include a risk versus reward scenario. By getting the mag close to empty I'm taking a risk (less ability to make up shots) and so I must decide if the reload is sooooo time consuming in that circumstance that it's better to manage the shots.

I did this once at an area 4 match where there were head shots. For me it paid off but I will note that I was cognizant of the rounds and the shots and was paying "extra close" attention to those head shots. THere is no doubt in my mind that I was measuring the risk versus reward in that scenario - but I also figured the folks I was competiting against were doing the same thing. I wish I'd managed the other stages better - I lost that match to a great shooter we lost a while ago - Mr. Steve Broom. Incredible shooter!

Lim10 and Production have provided a great component to the sport that (IMO) has been lost. Stage management with 26 round magazines in open is a little bit of a misnomer. You have to do it - but not really super detailed. Lim10 and production have placed a premium on managing the stage, the shots, and the reloads. They are more remeniscent of the old days.

The coolest part is that some folks interpret the equipment as the limitation. Since you're competing against folks that have the same equipment - it is the mind that is the limitation. Open up the mind, challenge everything, and the stage opens up to all kinds of possibilities.

J

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Moving = Reloading.

Be careful with burning this into your head. Although you will find this equation to be true most of the time, some stages will ask for the opposite. Here's a video of a stage I shot several weeks ago. My plan was to drop the popper, shoot the array through the barrel, then reload. My subconscious overrode my stage plan, and once I hit the popper, I preformed an unneeded reload.

th_LongShot.jpg

Remember that you are really only shooting against other people in your division. If you are shooting an 11 round stage (like the classifier "Take 'em Down") and think that you will not need the reload, than go for it! Just make sure that you are shooting smoothly, not quickly.

Edited by Pharaoh Bender
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Even in Micah's video - the reload was unneccesary but not really time consuming.

Maybe a mental error - if you could call it that - but not real costly to the overall match.

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Thanks for all the tips great info. I stopped by the store and got another magazine so I can carry 5 one in the gun and 4 on the belt. that way I can afford to reload as necessary without worrying about round management as much.

I have to laugh I have only been shooting USPSA for 3 months I shot competition Pistol and Rifle in the Marines but that was a while ago I got out in 1991. I am a accuracy hound you know "ONE SHOT ONE KILL"

So for the life of me I couldn't understand why in the hell I needed more than 2 magazines to complete a stage My gun = 16 rounds Then I show up first match and you can only put 10 rounds per mag Opps! So I stroll through the stages shooting all A's Thinking I GOT IT GOING ON!! Look at the score at the end of the match and see it ain't all about A's you have to actually shoot fast also. Hmm so I ordered 2 more mags and did the next two matches with 4. Now I will be using 5. Umm I think I see why you need all those mags now LOL!!! Now if I can just get Faster :-)

Good video Pharaoh I see what you mean!! Just wondering where your blue shorts were. :-)

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Wow, even color coordinated shoes!
Good video Pharaoh I see what you mean!! Just wondering where your blue shorts were. :-)

I just applied the same krylon that I used on my holster. It's become a bit of a running gag now ;)

+1 for carrying four mags on your belt. I recently started carrying five for additional "Just in case" -ness.

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Thanks for all the tips great info. I stopped by the store and got another magazine so I can carry 5 one in the gun and 4 on the belt. that way I can afford to reload as necessary without worrying about round management as much.

One thing to keep in mind is that if money isn't a big issue, you'll want a couple of extra mags on top of what you'll have on the belt and in the gun. That way if you get one that gives you problems suddenly, you trash one etc, you'll still have enough. Some people go so far as to have practice mags and match mags....the practice ones get beat up, but work fine and can fill in if a match mag gets trashed. Costs more, but it's not a bad idea.

I think someone else said it in other words, but the best, and most simple way I've heard anyone talk about planning reloads went like this "reload when you WANT to, not when you HAVE to".

I'm not 100% certain on this quote, but I think it was Phil Strader that told my boss that any time you have to take three or more steps, a reload doesn't really cost you any time.

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You've already gotten a bunch of good advice, so I don't have much to add.

During the walkthrough, if you see a situation where slidelock looks like the only plan, look for a longer/harder shot(s) that may give you another option. Of course you have to be realistic when determining your capabilities.

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In order of importance, I'd say:

1. Avoid the standing reload

2. Avoid slidelock

3. Use movement to get free reloads when possible

4. Allow extra shots on steel, and at least one per array of paper

I'll give you an example, look at this stage:

http://www.doubletapranch.com/Results%20an...ndex-DTC07.html

The round-count analysis looks like this: You have six shots from the box, five steels through the first port, then thirteen on the move, and eight more from the last port.

The question that we kept chewing over was how to hit the steel port, and then what to do after getting through the 'door', since there were more than 10 shots.

I eventually chose to shoot the first paper on my right, then as I transitioned, lean a bit and pick up the long shots on the one steel and two papers, then finish the transition and pick up the left two papers on the move to slidelock. That would give me a moving reload into the steel port, and plenty of rounds for the steel. Once that was finished, it was an easy move-reload eight, move-reload eight. It's important to note that I would only shoot a single shot at the steel, even if I missed, otherwise I wouldn't have the four rounds necessary to engage the left targets.

Of course, I completely blew my plan, but it was a good plan. A bad idea would have been to go into the steel port with less than a full mag, and hope that you won't miss on five mini-poppers at 20 yards. You could shoot the six shots from the box and think you can get it done with the remaining five, but that would cause a standing reload with a single miss. (And I watched Dave Sevigny throw four misses at steel on one stage later on.)

H.

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Looking at the diagram for the stage in question (Stage 4 BTW) I might have taken a different approach --- but it's important to note that I didn't see the stage on the ground, I'm only working off the diagram:

Draw to the paper on the right, shoot the two left on the move, reload, steel through the port, reload going around the corner, take ten rounds at paper on the move, reload going into the port to shoot eight on paper and finish with the last paper and popper.

In the alternative, if shooting ten on paper on the move wasn't viable, I might have picked up one of the far papers on the transition from the draw. Getting moving sooner is often a good idea.....

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we've been shooting a 10 round game here since 94, open, limited whatever, 10 in the mag is good, 11 gets you arrested. and among the things I've discovered for my shooting style is a standing reload is not always a bad thing.

using the above stage as a example, my plan would be similar to Nik's with the a couple of variations. 1st after shooting the poppers thru the port, and depending on the number of rounds fired at the poppers, if it took 8-11 rounds to knock down the steel, I would re-load and engage the 5 paper on the move. if I knocked them down with only 6 rounds, then if I could see any of the paper I would engage 1 or 2 targets, reload and engage the rest of the paper and steel, reload then engage the 4 paper thru the port.

my 2nd plan involves the same number of reloads as the first, but it gives a 2-4 round cushion at the end of the stage.

the 10 round trap if you will call it that for that stage is once you're thru the doorway, it's a 21 round stage. if you plan to finishing the stage by reloading after you engage the steel thru the port, you've given yourself no room for error.

but by the same token, if you plan to engage a far paper and steel from the box to give yourself a cushion at the end of the stage. it might take you longer setup and take the shots, than a standing reload would take at the end of the stage if you needed one.

also in that stage you gotta go there anyway. so why would you want to take long hard shots from the box, when you have to run up there anyway to engage the last targets thru the port, I would simply plan on taking the targets up close, than risk bad hits or mikes if I took them from further back.

a simple drill I do judge to accuracy vs time vs movement is set up a fault line with 7 targets (including a few with hard cover)and a few steel in front of it. with the closest around 3 yds away, and the farthest around 15 yds. next place a box 10 yds back from the fault line. run each drill at least 2 twice, record the times and hits.

1st drill, after the signal, engage all targets including a standing reload from the box.

2nd drill, after the signal, engage targets from the box, then during your reload move towards the fault line and finish engaging the targets with your feet planted from there.

3rd drill, after the signal, engage all targets on the move.

4th drill, after the signal, run to the fault line and engage all targets including a standing reload from there.

pay attention to the split time between shots and the reload times, particularly the difference between a standing reload vs a moving one.

compare your hit factors for each drill and chose the method that give you the highest hit factor. almost everyone reading this would say the 2nd or 3rd drill would be the best way to shoot it. but it may not be true for your skill level.

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Looking at the diagram for the stage in question (Stage 4 BTW) I might have taken a different approach --- but it's important to note that I didn't see the stage on the ground, I'm only working off the diagram:

Draw to the paper on the right, shoot the two left on the move, reload, steel through the port, reload going around the corner, take ten rounds at paper on the move, reload going into the port to shoot eight on paper and finish with the last paper and popper.

In the alternative, if shooting ten on paper on the move wasn't viable, I might have picked up one of the far papers on the transition from the draw. Getting moving sooner is often a good idea.....

That's a workable plan, but not one I would use, because you're ending at slidelock. One miss, and your stuck with a reload. My reasoning was that picking up the far papers and poppers would allow missing, and I would have extra rounds on the two eight-shot arrays to pick up mistakes.

H.

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Great example Houngan and great alternate plans from the others. This has realy helped me to think about the best way to manage the reload situation. I think starting with 5 magazines will help also It allows more room to do a reload at a movement to speed up the stage when only having 4 magazines might not allow as much freedom for fear of coming up short at the end of a stage if you miss some steel. Do most of you start with (4), one in the gun and (3) on the belt, or (5) one in the gun and 4 on the belt?

Thanks

William

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Definitely 5 mags total. The propensity for 3- and 4-paper arrays is strong, so on a 30-round stage, you might be looking at five 3-paper arrays. Ten won't get you through two arrays, so there's five mags right there. Throw in a star or some long steel, and you might be wishing for a sixth.

H.

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