Shooting A .308 Major Pf Gun Vs. A .223 Minor Pf Gun In Limited

[Chills1994]

Hi gang,

I've done more than my fair share of surfing and searching here and seems like the consensus is that shooting a major PF gun/caliber is not worth it vs. shooting a minor PF, like an AR-15 in .223/5.56.

Everyone seems to agree that the major PF guns recoil more and take more time to get back on target vs. the minor PF guns.

Is this just strictly the case w/ Tactical and Open guns, because the optics allow you to get A-zone hits?

Said another way, would shooting a major PF gun make up for less than perfect A-zone hits when shooting a gun w/ iron sights only?

As far as major PF goes, it seems like only .308 and .260 Remingtion will make it. The .260 Remington sounds like a handload/reload only option right now. Is that true on both counts?

Much grass

Chills

[uscbigdawg]

For the most part, yes, there's no advantage. The reason is two fold. Either the range is short enough to where time is (a little) more important than perfect hits; where the reality is if you get 1 clean sight picture, it's 2 A's. Second is that when you are shooting at a real distance, you're probably shooting steel, which doesn't reward power.

So the short answer then is it depends. In Irons, I can see it making a huge difference across the board.

BTW....308 and 260 aren't the only calibers that will make it.

Rich

[gotm4]

In some 3gun Major only requires 1 hit per paper where Minor requires 2 hits.

[uscbigdawg]

Yeah I'd never shoot Major PF in a IMGA 3-Gun match. The scoring doesn't reward power.

Rich

[mpeltier]

It may be worth it to some degree. I think for many, cost of ammo may be the biggest detractor. If memory serves me at the Area 6 3-gun match last year, in Limited the top 5 competitors included 3 Heavy Metal entries.

[Chills1994]

Okay, I'll bite, what other calibers will make major PF then?

I might be getting things confused between He-Man / Heavy Metal where a .308 min is required.

I was thinking about a week ago that a typical .308 platform say like an M1A, FAL, or an AR-10 rebarreled for .243 would be the ideal gamer gun but I ran the bullet weight / velocity numbers from a reloading manual and it didn't get close enough for the major PF of 340 (Is that the right PF?).

[George]

Old hat stuff. We don't use enough paper targets at long distance to make major worth while over here. In Europe, they use a lot of paper at distance and if there is a lot of LD paper, a major rifle might be a plus.

Otherwise, it's a loser with a capital L everywhere except in the HM division where it's the whole game ;-)

.308 is the ONLY commercial caliber you are gonna' find making major (except for 30.06 in M1A's chambered for it that is). Everything else that's gonna make major in a semi-auto is a custom jobbie.

Some IMG 3gun matches allow major to neutralize a paper target with one hit anywhere and that's where major PF might help, but this is rarer that true.

[uscbigdawg]

.308 is the ONLY commercial caliber you are gonna' find making major (except for 30.06 in M1A's chambered for it that is). Everything else that's gonna make major in a semi-auto is a custom jobbie.

Oh yee of little faith...

Rich

[George]

OK Rich I'll bite. What makes major PF in a box mag fed semi-auto and is available over the counter in a commercial cartridge offering?

[Wiking]

.308 is the ONLY commercial caliber you are gonna' find making major (except for 30.06 in M1A's chambered for it that is). Everything else that's gonna make major in a semi-auto is a custom jobbie.

Agreed.

I am currently working up major loads in my 6,5Grendel. I am working on the lighter bullets, 120 and 123grs. Have not been able to make major at acceptable pressure yet, but have been very close. I am fairly certain that the 6,5G will be able to make major with bullets in the 120-123grs range with the right powder. Recoil is nice and I am able to fire double taps almost as fast as a 223. Only downside is that the rifle is a bit heavy, slower to index and move around.

[uscbigdawg]

George,

6.5 Grendel will do it. Now, like 38 Super, you'll have to do the loads yourself as I don't think the Alexander Arms and Wolf ammo are loading the heavy bullets yet. But you can make it with 130's. Henning and I think P.E. Kelley are already using it.

Rich

[George]

It ain't a commercial loading yet, but I think the Grendel has the best chance of anything out there to be a contender in a Major 3gun rifle platform. If the correct balance of recoil control and power can be sorted out and a major PF rifle system made competitive with the .223's then we might see a change. But for now,my feeling is that the extra recoil and extra shot to shot time that causes will be an issue in the fast stuff for some time to come.

The day Voigt, Burkett and Miculek all show up to national level 3gun matches sporting major PF rifles is the day major rifle will be ready for prime time ;-)

[ExtremeShot]

I'm just getting into 3 gun..... so if your rifle is Minor PF, does this mean all 3 guns are minor?

Darren

[Chills1994]

And just when I thought the 6.5 Grendel and all the associated internet forum discussions had died off.

Man, oh, man.. just think what would happen to 6.5 Grendel (upper?) sales if those Big 3 showed up with that caliber at a major (press coveraged) event.

We get enough people interested in it, we could get commercial ammo w/ correct weight bullets for it. That would be too cool!

[kellyn]

I'm just getting into 3 gun..... so if your rifle is Minor PF, does this mean all 3 guns are minor?

Darren

Careful. Remember there are many 3 gun organizations. This thread is focused on USPSA/IPSC 3 gun/mulitgun shooting not IMGA or the various "outlaw" matches. And the answer is no. In USPSA, you can have a minor pf rifle and a major pf pistol. One weapon's pf does not govern the others. In IMGA matches there is no power factor.

I, for one, hope that major pf rifles do not become competitive - but recognize that they might be. 3 gun is expensive enough. The idea that I need to get a new upper shooting more expensive bullets and much more expensive brass does not appeal. I've done the major pf thing (.260 Remington) and abandoned the effort. Most of the challenging targets (in the U.S.) are steel, not paper, so major pf does not help.

[mcb]

What about 6.8 SPC. Seems the factory loads using 115 grain bullet are just shy at ~300PF. If someone were to work up a load using a 130 or 140 grain .277 bullet I would think making major would be doable without going over SAAMI pressure. What do you think?

mcb

[ranger]

Not to drift the thread, but there is new US military interest in 6.5 MPC - essentially the 5.56x45 case transformed into a 6.5x45. In THEORY, you would just need a new barrel in an AR as you could use the current bolt, magazines, etc.

This MIGHT be a future major rifle candidate.

[Wiking]

Really I believe that the 6,5G is the only viable option of getting the AR15 to major. In my experience it's a stretch to get it to major. Both 6,8SPC and 6,5MPC will be even harder...

It will be interesting to try shooting Open major with the Grendel. Here in Europe we have quite a few stages that have long range (300m+) paper. I think that it might be worth it to go major for those matches. IMO Major with the heavy bullets is not the best option, it means more recoil and a less flat trajectory and brings the Grendel closer to the 7,62x39 Major loads. There you almost have to elevate the gun mortar style to hit targets far away.

[uscbigdawg]

In the US, for the most part it's not a huge advantage. However, I think there's a good case for it in Limited division and in any division if the match has enough paper to make it worthwhile.

It does come down to recoil management. When I get home, we'll see how it goes.

Rich

[stubbicatt]

For me for right now I have a 308, so that's what I use. Everybody else shoots and AR 15.

[tverho]

Hi, I have been shooting an open AR15 5.56 for a few years now and am changing to an iron sights 5.56 AR15 this year. As well I have a Grendel AR15 coming up. If I just could find the time for ammo testing.

IMHO with iron sights low recoil is even more important than with optics - I have no problems hitting paper A's up to 300m with irons if the weather permits. Shot to shot splits are much more affected by recoil with iron sights than with optics. Lining up the sights again just takes up more time than bringing the dot/crosshair on top of the target.

So I'd rather shoot major pf in open than in iron sights class.

t tommi

(still dissappointed by the seemingly lousy show-up of US shooters in our Finnish tournament this coming summer)

[bigbrowndog]

attention minor thread drift eminent.................................

t tommi, sorry about the low US turnout, speaking for myself. the shopping for divisions really has me concerned, but i also really wanted to come to the match.

hopefully someday soon ill get over.

trapr

[George]

Speaking to my inability to attend many matches this year, work is killin' me, but the money ain't!

The nice thing about owning your own business is that YOU get to choose the 90 hours a week you work ;-)

[kurtm]

I'm with the bigbrown dog on this one, I even had a Finish guy e-mail me that he was going to "shop" the divisions in both the handgun AND shotgun matches just to do better over all. Tommi, this really left the U.S. crowd a bit cold. We need to get this whole thing fixed before the World 3-Gun in Ecuador, but that is WAY beyond my pay grade!

As to your observations about major and Iron sights, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT as long as it is paper, for steel it is a wash and no advantage as steel as we use it right now doesn't reward power factor. I shot an M-14 up untill 2000 and did pretty darn good, but in 2001 I switched to a J.P. AR-15 and started winning. I think you are on the right track. KurtM

[Tom Freeman]

(still dissappointed by the seemingly lousy show-up of US shooters in our Finnish tournament this coming summer)

I know I am still dissappointed by the seemingly lousy show-up of Finnish shooters in the US this coming fall.