bompa Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Read about this stuff on other forums and wondered if anyone here has tried it.. It sounds good.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bompa Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 Must be no body here has tried it.. Or maybe they don't want to admit it for some reason.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerome Poiret Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I know what moly, molycoat finish, moly-coated bullets are, but what is moly "FUSION" ? and what are the applications ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bompa Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 From what I have read it is a metal conditioner that reduces friction and guards against corrosion.. See here,,www.shootersolutions.com .. I was hoping someone had tried it and could give results.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Lisenby Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 I tried it in the bore of my 1000 yard competition rifle and I noticed an immediate improvement of accuracy. This was a few year back. I have tried it on friction points of various firearms (and even axles of toy race cars and it seems to work to reduce friction. I can't prove that it is any better than other friction reducers but it did work. I believe that the other friction reducers do what users say they do, but to what extent one is better than the others, I can't say or prove. Faith has a lot to do with it. Try it and let us know. Dealers will sometimes overstate the capabilities of their products. As a gunsmith I hear all kinds of claims made by my customers. I don't think the user is lying, but sometimes he is just saying what he has been told by someone else; usually a salesperson. The higher the price, the more extravagrant the claim. I know that molybdenum is low on friction, but so is teflon, silicon, graphite, and talc. I just can't find much on engineering tests which is helpful to prove one is better for guns and bores and I've found in this business you have to experiment and decide for yourself. Good Luck and pass what you learn on to your fellow shooters, please. Dri-Slide from Brownell's works well on semi auto pistols. Some shooters say that moly builds up in bores. I found that this is true. Moly fusion probably doesn't. I just don't know. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techshooter Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 What is supposed to be. Doc, since then: 1. Price is lower. 2. It is more powerful in chemistry for even better results, and the base-change is easier to apply. Lubricants now included. To illustrate only the price reduction for action use, the smallest Kit is different. It is twice the core product for the same list money as another's labeled action product. I understand that company doubled their price by halving the amount. Manufacturer of Moly-Fusion decreased the price by quadrupling the amount at price from 4mL (1/8 Oz) to 1/2 Ounce. It is also uniquely different from ground-up Moly-Disulphide powder. Doc, the Molybdenem, Phosphorus, and Nitrogen actually are to become part of the intregal structure of the steel, which sets it apart from all of the "dry stuff" that "ride on top". It also includes lubricants that being present in solution either become part of the steel or act "interference" for further property enhancement. In any case, it is acid resistant. It does not remove with solvents. This makes it different the Moly-Disulphide right away. Plus it does not leave Moly-Disulphide to react with heat, then water and oxygen to cause corrosive action. Jerome: "Fusion" is to stand for two or more things to become one. In other words the metal surface absorbs the ingredients and changes to incorporate the new properties. Moly-Fusion is supposed to have evolved to the point that "containing Moly-Fusion" is powerful as well as the pure stuff. It is not a competing product, but a "technology". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Maybe I'm missing something but if you shoot bare bullets (without the "coating") eventually the coating will be removed. How many rounds before retreatment is necessary? Which calibers were tested?. Also, if the bore is made slippery, it will take more powder to make major. More powder means more flame and more erosion. Why would I want to try this??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techshooter Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Well, the purpose of the product is not to create a coating, which it does not do, but to change the metal, which it does do. This means bare bullets do not remove the coating - at least not quickly - neither do a combination of bullets and solvent. One interesting "hand cannon" it works on is a .35 caliber handloaded "super" magnum. If anyone is interested, I will be getting more details on specifics of the gun, powder charges, case size, and any other details Before treatment the bullet and handload was tuned to group 1" at 100 yards. After treatment the bullet with same handload grouped 2" at 100 yards. Fine tuning the load however - increasing the number of grains by .1 grains and interestingly decreasing the grains by .1 gr changed the groups attaind from 2" to .75 inches. Friction reduction affects peak pressure far more than velocity, which means higher velocity can be achieved in practice due to any peak pressure reduction that may affect velocity. This was first learned a number of years ago in benchrest and long-distance shooting. Cleaning reduced from 45 minutes to minutes, as after shooting the bore remains virtually perfectly clean. This is an extreme magnum load. In .223 necked down to .20, it was reported that the bore requires 1 hour of cleaning after 20 rounds, as the pressure build-up is so bad. After Moly-Fusion, the first treatment, recleaning within 20-30 rounds was still needed to retain 1" group at 300 yards, there was now no copper in the bore: just a touch of powder that affected accuracy, but no pressure build-up probems any more. If you have to increase pwder grains .1 grains, and it eliminates pressure problems in the bore, and makes cleaning a "snap", and saves the money back on cleaning and making the bore last much longer, wouldn't it be worth one extra .1 grain of powder? Theoritical velocity may drop due to radical friction reduction, but heat is reflected from the steel, which helps, at least in the long bore - but mean deviation drops, and if accuracy is much better due to elimination of "grab on the steel surface", who would care, unless that .1 grain is going to kill you. The idea of Moly-Fusion-treated steel is to give new lease on steel to give it the properties of more modern technology, like ceramic. But with the strength of solid steel and cost savings of using production-grade steel but turning the surface into something new. The idea of adding to and reinforcing the structure is to be "bullet, solvent, and oil proof" as to longevity. Being a reacted surface it is renewable, and being a sacrifical surface, it will sacrifice itself to protect the steel, and will reflect some of the heat-burn away from the throat to prevent erosion of the bore. This has been commented about by wild-cat round shooters. Because handguns in "power shooting" approach the characteristics on high-power rifle shooting but short barrels, what it does for protection of the throat and beginning of rifles and lands in long distance rifle shooting applies the the handgun as well. As to why: it is also extremely inexpensive. Also, modification to handload would be easy if a 98% reduction in fouling volume helps - not to mention saving money on cleaning supplies and making cleaning more pleasant for what doesn't "stick" anymore. You protect all metal you don't want to erode more quickly with Moly-Fusion. Less throat erosion is one of its reported characteristics - you just use it there as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 If it is a good thing, why aren't the bench shooters all over it. They will do anything to improve accuracy, even a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Before treatment the bullet and handload was tuned to group 1" at 100 yards.After treatment the bullet with same handload grouped 2" at 100 yards. Erh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Slick 50 for your Barrel!!!!! Pour it in and shoot it clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techshooter Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 SRT driver: O.K. wise guy :wink As you can see, Doc is all over it, and he can shoot. Doc used it because he had an open mind. The opening post said “Read about this stuff on other forums ..” For handgun use, check out what an administrator for CZforum.com in the feedback section says about its use in multiple handgun and high-power hand load use. See what he says about slide use, anti-lead, and anti-copper, and how it doesn't seem fair for the barrel to be so easy to clean. Also, how he applied it. Another major forum it has been talked about is RimfireCentral.com, where a bunch of people have good things to say about both the technology results and the service around it. You will see many results there that are positive and different. In fact he said “.. sounds good”. Obviously between this forum and others there is already substantial different results and a great deal of information. I assure you the product is not what you infer to be "Snake Oil" - though you are entitled to that opinion, counter to those who disagree with you should you choose to think so. I respectfully give as an excuse perhaps you did not read the first post to open up the topic "Moly-Fusion". I don't mean anything negative, but while healthy While being a skeptic is great, you must be careful in calling someone like Doc a liar. He is not a liar. Is everyone on the internet a liar? They are all real people with real guns. Erik: Yes, the previous perfect load was no longer the best perfect load, but keep in mind it is referred to as a "cannon". Also.1 grain change either way off of the previous - single spot, in powder produced 25% reduction in group size of the best, which means the barrel is behaving much better than before. The previous sweet spot was a single spot and now there are two. In that gun .1 grains has a huge change in precision use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 I've used this stuff on the inside of mag tubes.... you swab it on, then bake the tubes @ 200 degrees for about 30 minutes to "set" the finish, causes the "fusion" effect. It definitely helped slick up the mag tubes. Never tried it in a barrel though - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Techshooter, I was not implying that you or Doc are liars. A good barrel is a good barrel and not much can change that. Maybe you have invented the "Bore Zamboni" and when the AMU says it is the best thing since Cheez Whiz, I'll be the first in line. Until, then I'll save my pennies and buy more bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Larsen Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Hey...just stumbled across this thead...Ive used Moly Fusion...and its good stuff guys. Im the Admin on the CZForum..and you can go to the review section on the CZ site and check out the comments. This stuff works.... IMHO, I believe the reason why people dont know about it/havent tried it...is they think its just another "Gimmick/Hyped product that is not what the Man. says it is".....Im not a trusting guy....why else would I carry a gun? Im also very hesitant to endorse ANY product related to gun.....Rigs, Sights, etc..... As a pretty popular forum admin....I have to be very careful about what I say/do in regards to advice given on the forum (any forum)....and this stuff has proven its self by leaps and bounds. Ill tell you...my main carry is a Custom CZ PCR....Cryo accurized barrel, polished hood/feedramp, target recess crown, Wolff springs inc. 20# recoil, PO1 import trigger w/ action job, front/back strap work, PT bar-dot nights, bevelled mag well, recurved beavertail, Hakan grips (he is SOOO good!), polished slide/frame rails, dehorned frame/controls...etc. I shoot/practice with mainly +P - +P+ as this is my carry ammo.... After the Moly Fusion treatment on the PCR..the 20# Wolff spring doesnt seem that stout anymore....... FMJ target loads produced more recoil and the carry stuff...was not being nice to my little carry piece. A stronger spring is on the way...... I chrono with my old man.....Ill have to do a before and after chrono test with one of his guns.....you treat the bore of the barrel.....there is NO WAY after treating the barrel with this stuff...you wont see increases in velocity...I just can tell you how much...yet. Check it out......Shoot well, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Eric, Sounds good, I'll wait to see your chrono results. I can't see that the velocities will go up unless this stuff reduces the bore diameter significantly. With the same load, doubtful. Slick doesn't mean faster, actually the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InTheBlack Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 I just tried to check out the product at their site http://www.shootersolutions.com but it seems to have been written by someone for whom English is a foreign language. The organization of the site is pretty rough, as well. Can't quite figure out how much it would cost to try it. Does it do anything to prevent lead buildup when firing non-jacketed bullets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techshooter Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 InTheBlack: English as a second language is funny: There is actually and excellent summary of Moly-Fusion by the Indian Government Showcase of metalurgy technology, derived from "MolyFusion.com". It was done a while ago. The original Moly-Fusion site it is derived from - 1998-2000 is still on the web. You will now find how much cost and "bang for the buck" now at either Kits page, and in "what Moly-Fusion is" from the central "clickable" Red Moly-Fusion page from the page you put a link to. There are also phone numbers you may or may not call. Being reviewed by the three gentlemen are either the 1/2 oz and 1 oz. "kits" (1 oz. = 30mL for international). Either way, less than $20.00 and $35.00 not including shipping is pretty inexpensive for the reported benefits on one firearm, never mind having any left over. "Does it do anything to prevent lead buildup when firing non-jacketed bullets?" Good question, as the posts only mention copper jacketed. The earlier post from 3-27-03, referrs to Ken from Washington, who treated the following: 1903-A3 Springfield Action Improved A3 Was 30-06 Caliber. A3 = improved Springfield Military Bolt Action Rifle with stronger barrel, heat treated action, receiver peep sight from the flip up sight. Following modifications: Trigger has been changed to the Timney Trigger, set to about 8 oz. pull, no creepage, which is simpler. No need for trigger control. No just have to worry about gun control. Barrel changed to .358 Norma Magnum. Barrel is 26” Heavy (almost bull). Barrel has been additionally improved, modified to be mirror smooth - very fine grit. Chronographed the copper jacketed Factory bullets at 3000 fps. Using 200 grain Spitzer Bullet chronographed with copper jacketed at 3000 – 3100 fps, lead not chronographed yet. On the .358 shooting a cast bullet combination of linotype and wheel weights, standard for reloaders. Powder is Hodgkins H4895. Fouling report modified to lead, not copper jacketed. Lead cast bullets on the .44: Thompson Contender, TC 14” Heavy barrel, Burris 2X-7X variable Scope, would prefer up to a 10X for it. Chambered for the .44 magnum. Replaced the TC grips to Pachmire Extra Large Rubber Grips for extra grip, size, and control. LBT 296 grain lead bullet, with copper gas check. Initial results: now no fouling. Groups opened intially, he went to faster burning powder, now there is reduced peak recoil and no fouling, and the TC .44 magnum is now more accurate and stays cleaner. The above magnum rounds should be a great example of what a high-precision bore treated will perform in fact, incuding side effects. Velocity: average velocity in high-pressure rounds may go up, because velocity will not drop due to fouling. With friction reduction also comes heat-reflective surface, which will try combat the friction reduction a bit, entirely, or more than compensate. Results will vary: Their are competing factors, including follow-up rounds, not just the first shot through a clean barrel. On the .44 Magnum he went from the original powder he was using to a quicker burning powder, that couldn’t be used before, and has achieved both better accuracy and negligible lead fouling as a result. So the important question should not be whether the technology written by a college professor, or is everyone using it, but does it work? If it works it works. Whether you use a working technology or not is then by choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 techshooter sorry but I was not able to understand your point. Are you saying it is great or not worth a crap? I repeat my original question, if it is great why aren't the benchshooters all over it? Heck they don' t even shoot moly bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techshooter Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Tightloop: It's raw data, not an opinion. I am not giving you an opinion, but raw data. 1. Ken, the benchrest shooter says in response, if they don't know about it, how can they use it? They probably have seen the same slick full-page ads on Moly-Fusion he has seen, but are just ignoring it out of total ignorance. He says the same thing I do: the proof is in the pudding. If it works, who cares? He says it is totally inappropriate to use the "circular logic" argument nobody should use it because not everybody is using it. If it works, who cares if you are ahead of your soon to be astonished peers when you whip their "butts" and have a clean bore to show? Lou Famiano, a versatile shooter showed the Marine sniper competion team gunnery sergeant two summers ago with borescope at Camp Perry a 3,000 round M1 Garand Peerless with Kreiger barrel virtual no fouling after many rounds and minimal throat erosion and do you think they are now using it? NOT. Of course he wasn't trying to sell them on it, just socializing. However, as to performance at 3000-3500 rounds was still continuing to shoot better - like it was just breaking in at 3000 rounds rather than getting ready for rechamber of barrel or a new one to be fitted. This was before. Also, "If it works, and only costs .35 per gun, why would you not use it?" See the end for .35 per gun calculation basis. "Who cares if all the benchrest shooters are using it. It takes a long time for them to catch on. It is the same argument that would have you jump over the cliff, because it is the "in" thing to do." Do you realize Doc Lisenby is not just a veteran gunsmithing, but also a benchrest shooter/shooting experience with Moly-Fusion? Well, what do you think? Ken is a benchrest shooter, and is giving the technical detail competitive benchrest shooters keep. It is increasing inherent accuracy of both firearms and eliminating the lead fouling of both. A more accurate bore in big-caliber benchrest will require fine-tuning the load since the barrel is now better than before. With a first change in load of powder on the .358 Norma Magnum, accuracy increased 25%. Fine tuning has not been done - that will take much more trial and error, so it is uncertain how much groups can be dropped further. 25% and no fouling at the cost of .35 is pretty darn good so far. Also, he shot 360 rounds in two days while checking it out, and bore stayed so clean, he expended 6-7 total patches for cleaning - wet and final dry follow-ups included. Fine tuning is not yet done. Powder is maintained at Hodgkins H4895, though the type will be one thing fine-tuned. On the TC 14” .44 Mag Heavy barrel with Darrel Holland Magnum Varmint Muzzle Break , With a light powder charge and 296 grain LBT without changing the fine-tuned combination that yields as good as 1" on the bench at 100 yards, sand bagged of course, he got something much larger, but no fouling. It required going from 17.7 to 18.7 grains of Hercules 2400 - one full extra grain. This gave him the idea to go to a faster burning powder he could not use before, not worrying about fouling any more (an important advantage), to 296 Winchester Ball Powder, a much denser powder rather than the flake powder. He started with a hot 17.4 gr and worked up slowly to 18.7 gr and now it is definitely at least back to an inch - 1 moa from sandbags - at 100 yards with the caviar of no fouling. For above Lead cast, the bullet lube after is the same as before: "Apache Blue" “Premium Cast Bullet Lubricant” from "Paco Kelly’s". Benchrest Rifle #3: bull barrel in .222 Remington 700 ADL, before treatment, rapid fire of 50 rounds barrel temp. rose to about 125 degrees F and minimal vertical stringing. Thin barrel got very hot with just 3 rounds. Moly-Fusion treated, 50 rounds and more shot rapid fire, barrel temperature maintains ambient temperature and there is no vertical stringing. In this caliber, "Accuracy stayed the same with the same bullet .200 to .300 groups, it is so accurate already, you don’t yet whether accuracy is better, except one: very fast rate of fire now only one dry patch, to see what it looked like, just some powder, then a wet patch, the 2 dry patches and completely clean: before it was ridiculous before it was good for 20 rounds at the most, and group was haywire, after then 10, then 20, and group stayed dead. 335 to reloader 12 25.5 gr for 40 gr bullet, then the blue dot in the .222 11.9 grains most accurate in moly-fusion treated barrel. And it is very quiet - function of the powder, not the Moly-Fusion. How hot are the loads: extreme - bullets are pushed hard, barrel performing well. Note, for Ken, he bought $34.98 of Moly-Fusion, and 10% has treated 9 guns and a set of molds for bullet casting. This is the basis of .35 per barrel treated. It has paid for itself just in less patches and cleaner needed to clean, not to mention now not requiring hours at the range cleaning. Any accuracy increase that can now be achieved through intelligence is a bonus - not required. Ken says benchresters should use it, as there is someone to help them technically with the Moly-Fusion, and treating the bore is very economical, and making the metal better is not synonimous with a lubricant. It is not just for guns: It is formulated for engine treatments, machine shop tool use, etc. This is important, as Moly-Fusion amount per a good-sized 1-4 ounce kit size will be larger than a gun collection - why stop with guns? So Tightloop, lets assume you will not be getting it anytime soon, which means you will rationalize in your head why not, but it doesn't mean it will make sense in terms of what is real. Keep in mind benchrest shooters are not going to be using the latest technology they do not know about. If you don't know about it, how can you use it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Techshooter Not trying to be a wiseguy, but my momma raised me to be skeptical to the point of thinking that anything that looks too good to be true; usually is. Sounds like Slick 50 for your gun to me. My $.02 worth. BTW, according to all my loading manuals, 296 is SLOWER than 2400, not faster. You should not have to worry about using that charge of 296, either, as my manual shows a 300 jacketed HP loaded with 21.3gr of 296, 18.7 should be well under max. Good Shooting Tloop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Techshooter, Correct me if I'm wrong, but Moly Fusion changes the molecular structure of the barrel steel? I remember a little problem that existed when hard chroming first became the next hot product. That little problem was hydrogen embrittlement. Over time, the problem has been corrected and it works. You may be preaching to the wrong crowd here..most of us are competitive pistol shooters. Copper or powder fouling really isn't an issue in our world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 SRT Driver Ok, I'll bite, how does anything you can wipe through a barrel change the molecular structure of steel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techshooter Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 SRT Driver, you miss the point: lead fouling is still a problem, is it not? If it eliminates lead in 44 Magnum and .358 Norma Magnum in long barrels, isn't that a good thing? It is also pH Neutral, so there cannot be any hydrogen embrittlement. One of the reports on page 1 had only to do with handgun use: results from "Erik". Tloop: Are you saying it does not work? Are you hoping to manufacture it yourself? What is your agenda? Do you expect someone to give away the chemistry secrets to yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 Tech shooter, In the handguns we run most guys are running JHP or FMJ and leading is not a problem. Might get some copper fouling but that doesn't seem to be much of a problem. This stuff sounds like the coating on Barnes XLC bullets. I can see it coating the bore but I seriousily doubt that it changes the molecular structure of the steel. That would require a chemical or thermo reaction. Moly was the greatest thing since sliced bread a couple years ago. Now you ask 10 people that have tested it and you get 10 different responses from great to garbage. IPSC guys will try anything to get an edge and the benchrest crowd is even worse so I really doubt that they haven't heard of it if it is as great as claimed. Those guys would sell vital organs for a .1 group reduction. My rifles shoot great and I believe in the if it aint broke don't try to fix it. I have never spent an hour cleaning the barrel. If you have to spend that much time there is something wrong with the barrel or you are using the wrong stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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